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  1. #76
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    The game had a unlikable sociopath kill Joel through dumb luck after he had saved her life. The game makes you play as said sociopath for half the game while remaining unlikable and try to drum up sympathy for her and her dad. Her cast of characters ain't great neither.
    Ah shit I thought we just played as her in the beginning to help make the shocking death even more impact full. I have no desire to play more as her. Well not looking forward to that

  2. #77
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    The game had a unlikable sociopath kill Joel through dumb luck after he had saved her life. The game makes you play as said sociopath for half the game while remaining unlikable and try to drum up sympathy for her and her dad. Her cast of characters ain't great neither.
    Everything said here is 100% wrong. Play the game yourself and make up your own mind.

    Ah shit I thought we just played as her in the beginning to help make the shocking death even more impact full. I have no desire to play more as her. Well not looking forward to that
    I expound on my Abby thoughts in my post after this but she is fine. I expected to hate her as well but really liked her character by the end and find her far more sympathetic than Ellie.
    Last edited by TriggerWarning; 06-25-2020 at 04:08 AM.

  3. #78
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    So I finished last night and all I can say is Wow!!!! This was a 10/10 storywise. Gameplay wise while improved on the first its still fairly run of mill and eventually just feels repetitive (another big area I have to fight through, sigh) though gorgeous to look at it so here its gets a 7. Like the first game though the story is what matters.

    While I'd managed to avoid spoilers concerning the ending I knew I was going to be playing as Abby for much of the game and expected to hate her but the more I played her the more I liked her and eventually came completely over to her side of things. Her revenge trip was no different than Ellie's so its baffling for me to see some here and elsewhere justifying Ellie but bashing Abby. They were literally two sides of the same coin - a metaphor Naughty Dog was rather blatant about by having Abby collect coins. Both lost their father figure, though I'd sympathize more with Abby because she was only 14, whereas Ellie was 18. Both became consumed with the idea of revenge. As someone else said though (and some baffingly disagreed) Abby is more sympathetic because she stopped once they killed Joel and actually stopped the others from killing Ellie and Tommy whereas Ellie just killed and sometimes tortured everyone in her path to get to Abby.

    Storywise I'd put this a notch below Last of Us but that game IMO had the best story ever in a video game so coming in just behind it is not a slight on this game.

    Was also happy to see that Abby and Lev made it to Catalina Island. This is something many may not realize but the game actually does show you that she made it. When you go back to the title screen after finishing the game the title screen is changed. Instead of a boat in the water you see a boat on land and in the background you see a large circular building. That is clearly the casino building that is the prominent landmark on the actual Catalina Island and thus an obvious way of showing they made it without actually doing a cutscene.

    Excited for some DLC. Not so much looking forward to all the online angst that will happen when it will probably be about Abby.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    While I'd managed to avoid spoilers concerning the ending I knew I was going to be playing as Abby for much of the game and expected to hate her but the more I played her the more I liked her and eventually came completely over to her side of things. Her revenge trip was no different than Ellie's so its baffling for me to see some here and elsewhere justifying Ellie but bashing Abby.
    There's a difference between a war criminal avenging her evil quack father, and knowing fully well Joel's motivations for doing so (and that her father would have done the same in his situation), and a young woman avenging the brutal death of her father-figure who went out of her way to save her life and give her a home.

    Abby's revenge is far less justified than Ellie's. She knew that her father did something wrong, she knew why Joel did what he did, she knew that her father in Joel's situation would have done no different. If you know all this and your response is to brutally torture and murder this person, who after all had just saved her life from zombie infected...then I am sorry I can't buy the game's shameless manipulation to make her work.

    For some of us, the issue isn't the conceit (i.e. making you sympathize and potentially forgive a villain), it's the execution and presentation. You can't present a flashback like what they did with Abby and her father, and then expect people to walk away saying, "this is the same thing" because it's not.

    Both lost their father figure, though I'd sympathize more with Abby because she was only 14, whereas Ellie was 18.
    At the age of 14, Ellie was going to be cut open by Abby's quack father for the vague possibility of a vaccine, in flagrant violation of basic procedures, norms, and ideas of medical science.

    As someone else said though (and some baffingly disagreed) Abby is more sympathetic because she stopped once they killed Joel and actually stopped the others from killing Ellie and Tommy whereas Ellie just killed and sometimes tortured everyone in her path to get to Abby.
    Because this is splitting hairs and sheer nonsense. The burglar who killed Batman's parents spared little Bruce. He doesn't get points because he just robbed their pearls and killed the adults. The guy who killed Uncle Ben as far as we know just killed Ben, but was otherwise just a robber and small-time crook. That doesn't mean he's not a murderer and bad guy.

    Abby remember is a war criminal. After her father's death, she spent years working with the wolves in Seattle fighting and committing ethnic cleansing against Seraphites in large numbers. And she and other ex-Fireflies did it, not out of ideology but for access of resources and stuff. In that time, they killed several hundreds of people and tortured others. Sure the seraphites don't seem likable, but they aren't any different from the WLF. Whereas Joel after saving Ellie and smuggling, stayed in Jackson and helped build and protect a community, becoming a father figure and mentor to the likes of Jesse and others.

  5. #80
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Everything said here is 100% wrong. Play the game yourself and make up your own mind.
    I watched it. Abby gets no love from me.

  6. #81
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Both lost their father figure, though I'd sympathize more with Abby because she was only 14, whereas Ellie was 18.
    Oh my God, bro.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Her revenge trip was no different than Ellie's so its baffling for me to see some here and elsewhere justifying Ellie but bashing Abby.
    People would've felt sorry for Abby if Neil didn't include a scene where Abby tells her dad that he should cut little girls for a slim chance for a vaccine. Honestly only the Lev part of the story kinda made me feel bad for Abby.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Abby is more sympathetic because she stopped once they killed Joel and actually stopped the others from killing Ellie and Tommy whereas Ellie just killed and sometimes tortured everyone in her path to get to Abby.
    As I mentioned in another post, Abby only spared Ellie and Tommy because Owen brought up the idea of sparing them first and she only went along with it because the others were gonna turn on Owen. She was also gonna cut Dina's throat until Lev showed up. Abby killing Meg and Owen was self-defense.
    Last edited by Triniking1234; 06-25-2020 at 07:17 AM.
    "Cable was right!"

  7. #82
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Oh my God, bro.
    Cause it's easier to watch your father get brutally murder in front of you at 18 than it is to find him dead at 14.. Right?

    Also, it was never stated that she was 14 during the flashback with her father. She actually look much older then Ellie, who was actually 14 "four years ago".

    edit:

    Also, are we going to stop acting like Abby's group is innocent? They are complicit in Joel's death and they are all part of the WLF, who were about to wipe out the Seraphites.

    When Joel killed the fireflies he was alone.

    Ellie watched a group of people ambushing and killing him. After his death, Manny spat on his corpse. Also, Nora said to her that she enjoyed watch Joel scream. So to Ellie, they are all involved.
    Last edited by Drako; 06-25-2020 at 07:40 AM.

  8. #83
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    double post.

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Cause it's easier to watch your father get brutally murder in front of you at 18 than it is to find him dead at 14.. Right?
    Yeah, cause parents need to die when their kids graduate. It's the circle of life. I mean what are grandparents anyway, and why would people want to grow old and see their children's children.

    I get that people want to like the idea of moral complexity, grayness, and validate any game that tries to do it. But again, those stuff can be done badly and fall flat and it's important to recognize and call it out. Spec Ops the Line was a brilliant game that was really morally gray, as is Dishonored, as is The Witcher III (where you can make choices that seem good but turn out bad and vice versa).

    The ending of The Last of Us was cool, gutsy, and interesting and you are meant to doubt if Joel did the right thing or not, or if in his position, you would have done differently. The sequel though seems to go on the idea that Joel's action was wrong....which is going so far in the other direction as to be ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    People would've felt sorry for Abby if Neil didn't include a scene where Abby tells her dad that he should cut little girls for a slim chance for a vaccine.
    She and her Dad are basically Nazis in that moment.

    Honestly only the Lev part of the story kinda made me feel bad for Abby.
    For me, Lev was such a cliche plot-device/character that I couldn't care for him. Rather than create an actual character, they gave it transgender issues to doll up a prop, have it walk alongside Abby, and direct sympathy waves at her. It was so obviously manipulative.

    It's also unbelievable. We are expected to believe that over the course of three days, Abby a war criminal who has committed ethnic cleansing and murdered and tortured many seraphites, would suddenly risk it all and walk out of her loyalties all of a sudden. It was too short a period to artificially jig up a first-game Joel-Ellie bond between her and Lev. The first game remember had a time span of basically a year or several months. They try and contract that in three days.

    The story was very poorly structured and premised. There are hints of interesting stuff in the game, but on the whole it just falls flat.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 06-25-2020 at 07:36 AM.

  10. #85
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    There's a difference between a war criminal avenging her evil quack father, and knowing fully well Joel's motivations for doing so (and that her father would have done the same in his situation), and a young woman avenging the brutal death of her father-figure who went out of her way to save her life and give her a home.
    War criminal. LMAO. I'll expound more later. By the way Joel was a thief and grifter committing highway robberies when we meet him in the first game (he and Tess reference this) . He's not exactly a saint.

    Abby's revenge is far less justified than Ellie's. She knew that her father did something wrong, she knew why Joel did what he did, she knew that her father in Joel's situation would have done no different. If you know all this and your response is to brutally torture and murder this person, who after all had just saved her life from zombie infected...then I am sorry I can't buy the game's shameless manipulation to make her work.

    For some of us, the issue isn't the conceit (i.e. making you sympathize and potentially forgive a villain), it's the execution and presentation. You can't present a flashback like what they did with Abby and her father, and then expect people to walk away saying, "this is the same thing" because it's not.



    At the age of 14, Ellie was going to be cut open by Abby's quack father for the vague possibility of a vaccine, in flagrant violation of basic procedures, norms, and ideas of medical science.
    First off it wasn't some vague possibility. They flat out indicated they had found it and Ellie made it plain in the first game she willing to sacrifice herself. It was also the survival of the human race. In a world like this the human race would go extinct eventually without a vaccine. Its no different morally then sending a soldier to die driving away with the huge bomb to save everyone.


    Because this is splitting hairs and sheer nonsense. The burglar who killed Batman's parents spared little Bruce. He doesn't get points because he just robbed their pearls and killed the adults. The guy who killed Uncle Ben as far as we know just killed Ben, but was otherwise just a robber and small-time crook. That doesn't mean he's not a murderer and bad guy.
    Yet your excusing Ellie for doing worse.

    Abby remember is a war criminal. After her father's death, she spent years working with the wolves in Seattle fighting and committing ethnic cleansing against Seraphites in large numbers. And she and other ex-Fireflies did it, not out of ideology but for access of resources and stuff. In that time, they killed several hundreds of people and tortured others. Sure the seraphites don't seem likable, but they aren't any different from the WLF. Whereas Joel after saving Ellie and smuggling, stayed in Jackson and helped build and protect a community, becoming a father figure and mentor to the likes of Jesse and others.
    Its not ethnic cleansing. You see Seraphites of all races, just because the two you spend time with were Asian doesn't make them all ethnic. And the Serpaphites were not good people at all. They were a cult, they even had the cult leader, and tortured and killed anyone not a member. Look at those they hanged, the people they tortured, and the cultish scarring they gave themselves. The WLF were not war criminals for opposing them anymore than decent society today would be war criminals for fighting against those doing mutilations and mass killings in our world.
    Last edited by TriggerWarning; 06-25-2020 at 07:47 AM.

  11. #86
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    For me, Lev was such a cliche plot-device/character that I couldn't care for him. Rather than create an actual character, they gave it transgender issues to doll up a prop, have it walk alongside Abby, and direct sympathy waves at her. It was so obviously manipulative.
    The fact that you refer to Lev as an "it" says everything.

  12. #87
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Cause it's easier to watch your father get brutally murder in front of you at 18 than it is to find him dead at 14.. Right?

    Also, it was never stated that she was 14 during the flashback with her father. She actually look much older then Ellie, who was actually 14 "four years ago".

    edit:

    Also, are we going to stop acting like Abby's group is innocent? They are complicit in Joel's death and they are all part of the WLF, who were about to wipe out the Seraphites.

    When Joel killed the fireflies he was alone.

    Ellie watched a group of people ambushing and killing him. After his death, Manny spat on his corpse. Also, Nora said to her that she enjoyed watch Joel scream. So to Ellie, they are all involved.
    Its very obvious that Abby, Owen, and the rest were children at the time. Maybe they were 15. Its also very obvious that Ellie has always been dainty and young looking for her age. They modeled her after Ellen Page after all who even now in her 30's barely looks out of her teens.

    And yes it would be harder to deal with the death your actual father, who you lived with your whole life and who is actually your father. While what Ellie saw was traumatic she was also an adult by this time as compared to Abbie and Joel had only been in her life for 4 years and half that time she hated Joel. So yes Abby had it worse in every way except the actual seeing it happen first hand.

    And the cult Seraphites would have wiped out the Wolves and any other people not wiling to join their torture cult. Everyone is glossing over their atrocities in their desperation to paint Abby as a war criminal.

  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    By the way Joel was a thief and grifter committing highway robberies when we meet him in the first game (he and Tess reference this) . He's not exactly a saint.
    Joel bcame a thief and grifter out for survival because military authorities who he turned to for help murdered his daughter Sarah. That's not the same thing as Fireflies, self-proclaimed revolutionaries and would be restorers of order who actively raise their kids believing in Nazi science.

    Let's get this straight, cutting open and murdering patients in the name of science is something that Nazis absolutely practiced and preached. Josef Mengele, thats who Abby's father, is in company with.

    Remember how Bioshock gave you a bad ending if you killed Little Sisters for the sake of power-ups...The Last of US 2, says killing little sisters was right.

    First off it wasn't some vague possibility.
    It was. Vaccines and medical science don't work like that at all. In the real world, there are people with naturally-occuring immunity to Covid-19, but nobody goes around advocating they cut them up. Vaccines depend greatly on antibodies which only a living body can produce. Killing Ellie would have ruined that for good. Vaccines also take a long time to undergo trials and so on, and then manufacturing and distributing. So even if a vaccine was produced out of Ellie's Skull it's no guarantee that the fireflies would have been in a position to make enough and then give it out in enough numbers to make a real difference. What it would have done is given them a military advantage over other factions, and that's probably what that entire thing was all about.

    Making a vaccine for the fireflies wasn't about ending the outbreak it was about winning the war. They were on a low end and practically about to be wiped out, and that explains their desperate and insane actions.

    The ending of TLoU-1 because it was framed around Joel's point of view, that was fine. But the minute you move outside that, you need to do something about that setup. If they made Abby's Dad a doctor who argued against killing Ellie on medical grounds, and was forced to go ahead by the Fireflies putting a gun on Abby's head, that would have basically been enough to sell Abby as sympathetic and highlight the tragic futility of it all, and also explain her misguided and conflicted character.

    But they made her and her father into Nazis instead.

    They flat out indicated they had found it and Ellie made it plain in the first game she willing to sacrifice herself.
    They didn't tell Ellie or ask her, and even then she is 14 years old. Since you put so much store in that age, (since according to you losing a Dad at 14 isn't as bad as losing it as 18), I hope you recognize that.

    It was also the survival of the human race.
    The human race can survive and even build a civilization with the Infected, as we see in Jackson. A vaccine is about ending the pandemic, and restoring status-quo, and obviously for the Fireflies, taking over and establishing a new world with them in charge.

    Its no different morally then sending a soldier to die to save everyone.
    It absolutely is. It's world's apart. Actual soldiers fought enemy soldiers in World War II, enemies such as the Nazis and Imperial Japan who experimented on POWs in the name of medical science.

    Its not ethnic cleansing.
    Ethnic cleansing means communities, groups, and so on. The seraphites are a distinct group and society. That's enough. It's not just a racial category.

    The WLF were not war criminals for opposing them...
    The WLF originated as a terrorist organization that opposed FEDRA in Seattle and after taking over treat the Seraphites the same way they were treated.

    And again the Seraphites being a cult doesn't justify any and all uses of force against them. The WACO siege is an embrassment for the FBI even if the Branch Davidians aren't exactly simpatico, the Albigensian Crusade is considered by some an act of genocide even if the Cathars, the heretic site being murdered, are religious extremists. And the climax of the game which shows the WLF murdering and destroying the Seraphite Island is framed as a scene of hellish carnage.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    The fact that you refer to Lev as an "it" says everything.
    No. What I said was,

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    For me, Lev was such a cliche plot-device/character that I couldn't care for him. Rather than create an actual character, they gave it transgender issues to doll up a prop, have it walk alongside Abby, and direct sympathy waves at her. It was so obviously manipulative.
    The sentence distinguished between Lev as a character and Lev as a prop. The "It" pronoun refers to Lev as a prop for Abby.

    And in narrative terms, Lev is a prop to serve Abby rather than a character. Without Lev, Abby would not have any heroic or redeeming moments. So Lev's purpose in the narrative is as a prop for Abby rather than a character in his own right. When I talk of Lev as a character I address him as him.

  14. #89
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Its very obvious that Abby, Owen, and the rest were children at the time. Maybe they were 15. Its also very obvious that Ellie has always been dainty and young looking for her age. They modeled her after Ellen Page after all who even now in her 30's barely looks out of her teens.
    Even though they never stated their age, it looks like Abby and the others are in their twenties in present time. But, there is not proof either way.

    And yes it would be harder to deal with the death your actual father, who you lived with your whole life and who is actually your father. While what Ellie saw was traumatic she was also an adult by this time as compared to Abbie and Joel had only been in her life for 4 years and half that time she hated Joel. So yes Abby had it worse in every way except the actual seeing it happen first hand.
    So she had it worse except the fact that Ellie watched him die screaming to, please, spare him while he was looking at her, disfigured? I guess seeing adopted Fathers get murderer doesn't count since they are not "real" fathers.

    And the cult Seraphites would have wiped out the Wolves and any other people not wiling to join their torture cult. Everyone is glossing over their atrocities in their desperation to paint Abby as a war criminal.
    I didn't say she was a War criminal. I said her group were all part of the WLF, they weren't innocent.

    Also, the seraphite indeed were bad people, but as we learn WITH Abby, not all of them were. And they had childern in ther camps.
    The WLF were going to exterminate them insted of search for a truce once again.

  15. #90
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    And the cult Seraphites would have wiped out the Wolves and any other people not wiling to join their torture cult. Everyone is glossing over their atrocities in their desperation to paint Abby as a war criminal.
    The enemies being bad guys do not justify your actions against them. The Nazis did horrible stuff to the Soviet Union, but nobody would deny that the USSR committed war crimes on the German people or argue that was justified.

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