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  1. #61
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Edit: Also honestly the closer/more accurate Superman comparison is to kryptonite. Magic, I don't think, hobbled Superman in the way kryptonite did. He didn't have the same reaction to it.
    Which (and I know you know this ) is exactly the point of Gladiator’s weakness. He’s SUPPOSED to be a direct Superman analogue (even down to the Kryptonian / Strontian thing of naming the race after a chemical element), and his radiation weakness is specifically supposed to directly mimic Superman’s reaction to kryptonite radiation.

    I’ve not weighed in on this so far, but my take is this:

    1) The radiation weakness is not a vulnerability like Diana’s compartmentalised durability because it doesn’t just harm him, it specifically makes him weaker against everything else as well. Diana getting hit by bullets doesn’t make her more punchable. Gladiator’s thing is like a combination of some really vicious virus (I am completely blanking on naming a specific nasty virus at the moment for some reason) draining him of his strength, and Space AIDS making him weak against anything else. It knocks the Gladiator out of him.

    2) I’ve never thought about the impact of specific weaknesses in a composite before, because it’s kind of a niche topic, but it makes perfect sense that it would have an impact.

    3) Here’s my take on how it would work:
    a) Gladiathor gets hit by the radiation.
    b) The Thor part of Gladiathor is not vulnerable to the radiation, but basically gets the Gladiator knocked out of him, so he’s more or less now just Purple-Thor-with-Mohawk-Mullet (seriously, take a moment to think about what an abomination Gladiathor’s hair would be like *shudder*). After all, a composite uses the strongest of its constituent parts in any particular situation. When exposed to the radiation, the Gladiator is knocked out of Gladiathor, so without his Gladness, Thor is the strongest part in pretty much every circumstance, so this is just Bad Hair Thor vs Surfer.
    c) Surfer, with his shiny head and classic bald man complex, might actually have a specific weakness to people who are blessed with actually having hair but then abuse that privilege the way Gladiathor has with the Mohawk-Mullet. However, it doesn’t do enough psychological damage to take away Surfer’s speed advantage and his eleventy-twelve different ways of murking Thor and taking away his offensive coiffuring.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Which (and I know you know this ) is exactly the point of Gladiator’s weakness. He’s SUPPOSED to be a direct Superman analogue (even down to the Kryptonian / Strontian thing of naming the race after a chemical element), and his radiation weakness is specifically supposed to directly mimic Superman’s reaction to kryptonite radiation.
    Me, several posts ago:

    or, for the guy he's ripping off, Superman and kryptonite,

  3. #63
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Me, several posts ago:



    Yeah, I figured, but I’m a lazy-arsed bastard and sometimes I just skim-read threads.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    However, it doesn’t do enough psychological damage to take away Surfer’s speed advantage and his eleventy-twelve different ways of murking Thor and taking away his offensive coiffuring.
    Actually, Surfer doesn't have a lot of ways to off Thor; Mjolnir pretty much counters everything. Speed is a the issue and so he gets speed blitzed. If it were speed equalized, I'd say it's 50/50.

  5. #65
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    Actually, Surfer doesn't have a lot of ways to off Thor; Mjolnir pretty much counters everything. Speed is a the issue and so he gets speed blitzed. If it were speed equalized, I'd say it's 50/50.
    Thor have any significant transmutation resistance to speak of?

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Thor have any significant transmutation resistance to speak of?
    He's pretty resistant to it as far as it goes. Not immune certainly, but Loki had to draw on the Twilight sword to turn him into a frog.

    He's been turned to stone by the Grey Gargoyle to be sure a few times (in fact the Grey Gargoyle's first appearance involved turning him into stone and statue Thor falling over in a way that turned him into Don Blake being the way he got out of it). But the Grey Gargoyle's stone effect is a powerful thing that generally only gets undone by healing factors more or less.

    There is a bit where Thor was eventually able to turn back into himself the one time the Gargoyle did him up many comics later (though Thor noted it took him days to be able to turn himself back, which itself is weird, since the Gargoyle's stone thing generally only lasts an hour. But then again the Gargoyle in comic had spent several days renewing it on Thor every hour on the hour... it was a weird comic, let's just say), but then again that comic involved the Grey Gargoyle being able to hold Mjolnir up for.. reasons (he caught it, by the handle no less, and was able to hold it in rock gauntlets he made such that Thor had to call it back to him, as opposed to, you know, immediately having his arms drop for doing that), so, dubious things all around.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-05-2020 at 02:36 AM.

  7. #67
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Leaving aside the argument for a moment, just wanted to address the bolded point:

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    You and Pen are of the opinion that Glads' vulnerability supercedes any other invulnerability in the composite. You are only of that opinion here, though: you don't think so for Wonder Woman/Thanos or Spider Man/Hulk or Superman/Batman. You have decided that this thing isn't resistance or durability but something else. OK, that's just your opinion against mine, and I've actually tried to be really cool stating that you have the right to your opinion, you have both refused to offer me the same courtesy.
    This is a debate board. We are debating how the composite might work. Given the concept of the thread and how the battle at hand apparently hinges on it, this is perhaps the key point in the thread for us to debate.

    You've laid out how you think it should work while Pendaren, myself and others have responded with "No, your interpretation doesn't have a logical basis," and have given our interpretation at significant length.

    Trying to take a position of somehow being a victim in this thread because the people you are debating do not agree with your argument just doesn't make sense.

    Like, that is the debate.

    I would politely advise you to consider disentangling yourself from your arguments. An attack on your arguments is not an attack on you. Us not agreeing with you is not indicative of a lack of courtesy. You are among friends.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Since we're talking about that part now anyway:

    I've actually tried to be really cool stating that you have the right to your opinion, you have both refused to offer me the same courtesy.
    Frankly there's nothing particularly cool about attempting to say that disagreeing with you is a moral affront and some kind of personally targeted attack. The idea that there's any kind of courtesy in that is a strain to find.

    It's a debate board. You are claiming a thing. People don't find that claim to make sense and say why. That's how it works.

    There's also something fundamentally reductive and dismissive about "that's just your opinion against mine", the problem of this thread for several pages now is that people will at length explain why they don't think anything you are saying works within comparative logic, and you just ignore that part to keep repeating the same things. It begins to come off like that to you, disagreeing with you is mostly just a mix of personal attacks and groundless opinions. It starts to make discussion feel pointless since you don't actually discuss the things that get posted to you in a way that seems to actually engage with the things that get said to you.

    Beyond that, for something that's "just your opinion", you've spent a bunch of pages trying to say why what you think makes sense and what various other people reply to you doesn't.

    People can disagree with your claims and say why they do. They can say that they don't find something to make logical sense and note why. That's just how the board works. That's not something specifically bound up in going at you as a person.

    I mean, do you want me to say you have the right to your opinion? Because you totally have the right to your opinion. It doesn't make your opinion not be a thing that to exist requires throwing out ideas of fundamental logical comparison, context of performances, or otherwise involves mostly ignoring the content of the posts that get made to you when you reply to them.

    You can have an opinion, and if people find that opinion to be illogical, the whole idea of what we do is they get to say so, and elaborate with why. That's not you. That's the board.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-05-2020 at 02:38 AM.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Thor have any significant transmutation resistance to speak of?
    Penderan spoke about this, but does Surfer have resistance to being transmuted?

  10. #70

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    How come nobody can spell Pendaran correctly!? :P
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  11. #71
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    How come nobody can spell Pendaran correctly!? :P
    One can never know the true name of a witch.

  12. #72
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Leaving aside the argument for a moment, just wanted to address the bolded point:



    This is a debate board. We are debating how the composite might work. Given the concept of the thread and how the battle at hand apparently hinges on it, this is perhaps the key point in the thread for us to debate.

    You've laid out how you think it should work while Pendaren, myself and others have responded with "No, your interpretation doesn't have a logical basis," and have given our interpretation at significant length.

    Trying to take a position of somehow being a victim in this thread because the people you are debating do not agree with your argument just doesn't make sense.

    Like, that is the debate.

    I would politely advise you to consider disentangling yourself from your arguments. An attack on your arguments is not an attack on you. Us not agreeing with you is not indicative of a lack of courtesy. You are among friends.
    I'm sorry that I was bad or petulant there.

    To the thread, this, again, isn't a proveable thing. If Arby wants the vulnerabiltiy to be there, it's there. I've repeatedly stipped the fact that, if the vulnerability is there, Surfer wins. But once again, there is no board rule on this, and there really doesn't need to be. We have established board standards for a reason: you know them, I know them, we agree on them, if we don't always agree on the interpretation of a specific piece of information or what it means, it fits into the context.

    This, again, isn't that at all: we were disagreeing on our own individual opinions on what this theoretical fusion brings to (and takes off) the table.

    My opinion, if I were the OP, would be that having a non-weak person in the fusion means that the fusion isn't particularly weak.

    Your opinion, obviously, is the contrary.

    That's OK. This is just an opinion thing, with literally zero basis in the feat-based evidence we use on the board.

    Thor and Gladiator never fuse in this way in comics, so we have zero data points to go on here.

    Arby, however, has stated that, to him, the weakness remains. Thus, there is no further reason to discuss this at all, and Surfer wins, something I've repeated over and over.

    There is no there there. There is nothing to discuss. There is no argument to make.

    Truce? Again, I'm sorry.
    Last edited by big_adventure; 04-05-2020 at 11:29 AM. Reason: Edited not to be a jerk
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  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    Penderan spoke about this, but does Surfer have resistance to being transmuted?
    Considering the sorts of things the Surfer has transmuted himself into, from snow to aliens, it feels like from that it would take a significant transmutation effect to lastingly do him up.

    Which, that said he showed as related to that this whole bit relatively recently where basically that sort of thing was outright given as the reason for why a very broad scale transmutation effect failed on him. "Blah blah I have mastery over my own atomic structure blah blah".

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    That's OK. This is just an opinion thing, with literally zero basis in the feat-based evidence we use on the board.
    Again, especially when you yourself have multiple posts to the contrary, we can look at opinions and weigh them for making sense in logic. There's a weird and bad precedent in saying that we can in fact do no such thing.

    This is again part of the problem here, particularly when you yourself post repeatedly to attempt to do that very thing.

    Arby, however, has stated that, to him, the weakness remains. Thus, there is no further reason to discuss this at all,
    If there was no further reason to discuss this at all, why, after Arbiter stated the weakness remains did you have post after post talking about how the views in contrast to yours were wrong because of what you feel to be the logic of Wonder Woman's durability, for instance?

    It's kind of a thing when you multi post on this very topic, then say this kind of stuff.

    Truce? Again, I'm sorry.
    It's nice that you're apologizing definitely, but it doesn't change that if someone says something that people feel makes no sense in logic, they have every right to say so, in a discussion thread, on a debate board. Things like "this is nothing but a matter of pure opinion" are just looking at multiple people's posts and deciding their content is nothing but optional for not meeting your shifting personal standards.

    You seem to want to stop being insulting and dismissive, but the very post in which you do so, seems to be unable to stop being this utterly dismissive, yet again, of people disagreeing with you. There are posts at length, from multiple posters, attempting to explain at length the deep logical flaws in the things you say, and you keep hammering again and again "well that's just your opinion". It's a discussion thread, on a debate board.

    Saying "this is just opinion and thus can't be discussed anyway" is basically taking the posts of something like six different posters to this point and stating you can completely ignore them as you like. Opinions can be looked at for making logical sense. You said things were the same that are in no way the same. People can question that and use examples to show why. You don't get to tell them they can't.

    You want to leave that all here? Hey sure.

    You want to shift now to saying we can apparently never debate "opinion" on this board? Hey no.

    In fact people outright used feats, as far as saying "this is a no feat based discussion", to give examples for why the things you were saying were the same, in no way actually resembled each other. To say "that's just your opinion" is to functionally proclaim that sort of thing never happened.

    When even your apology for this can't stop pushing the idea that no one had any significant basis to call your posts into question, it's not great.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-05-2020 at 12:16 PM.

  15. #75
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Thread closed until further notice. I'm going to give this a lookthrough.
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