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  1. #1

    Default Silver Surfer vs. Gladiator + Thor

    All 616. Arena. Classic Thor.

    Gladiator and Thor are a stacked fusion. They are 1 person with the powers and abilities of both added up.
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  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Specific Frequency of radiation weakness still screws him here. Surfer knows it.

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    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    All 616. Arena. Classic Thor.

    Gladiator and Thor are a stacked fusion. They are 1 person with the powers and abilities of both added up.
    That gets to be a pretty good match.

    I'd favor the fusion somewhat, call it 7 or 8 out of 10. Glads without Thor added is not that far from Surfer, he just loses because Surfer has esoterics (attacking his particular energy weakness, or just transmuting him, or d-dumping him). Adding Thor means that he's out of Surfer's ability to transmute, that weird energy no longer does anything, he can come back from dimension, time and whatever shennanigans, and the stack of Thor plus Glads is somewhat stronger and more durable than Surfer. Speed is pretty much equal, so yeah, the comp wins.
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    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Specific Frequency of radiation weakness still screws him here. Surfer knows it.
    Why would that screw him when Thor has no weakness to it?
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta

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    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."
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    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Why would that screw him when Thor has no weakness to it?
    OP didn't say the fusion loses any weaknesses they have.

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    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    OP didn't say the fusion loses any weaknesses they have.
    But half of the fusion is not weak to it. So how would we treat weakness' in fusions?

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    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    That was it for me: it would have to get through Thor (I chill in suns) resistance to radiation to even start on Glads.

    Plus Thoriator can just absorb or transform the energy. He's speed equal or so here, so Surfer doesn't have an easy out. Transmuting Thor required Twilight being harnessed, and that's a fair site above Surfer power level, so that's out.

    I'm not saying Surfer gets stomped, but he's at a pretty significant disadvantage here, given that his advantages against one or the other are mitigated by the comp.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta

    "Get off my lawn!

    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."
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    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

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    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    But half of the fusion is not weak to it. So how would we treat weakness' in fusions?
    It bypasses the resistances of a guy who swims around in suns otherwise, don't really see stacking Thor onto that helping him much.

    Given the Surfer's energy output, he could just emit a ton of said radiation while being capable of other things, whereas the fusion is going to need to focus on absorbing that.

    edit: to be more specific, it would be like the idea of stacking someone onto, say, Superman, somehow reducing the kryptonite weakness because the other person doesn't have a kryptonite weakness. It doesn't particularly feel sensical to work that way. The weakness is still there.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-03-2020 at 07:02 PM.

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    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    It bypasses the resistances of a guy who swims around in suns otherwise, don't really see stacking Thor onto that helping him much.

    Given the Surfer's energy output, he could just emit a ton of said radiation while being capable of other things, whereas the fusion is going to need to focus on absorbing that.

    edit: to be more specific, it would be like the idea of stacking someone onto, say, Superman, somehow reducing the kryptonite weakness because the other person doesn't have a kryptonite weakness. It doesn't particularly feel sensical to work that way. The weakness is still there.
    But on the other hand you're giving a weakness to someone who never had one.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    It's the downside of fusing with someone who has a particular debilitating weakness.

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    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    That logic doesn't track.

    Batman can be killed by a bullet. A fusion of Batman and Superman would not be killed by a bullet.

    Gladiator has a weakness to a certain radiation that bypasses his defenses. But Thor does not, so you'd also need to get past that toughness. And it's a dude who also hangs out in stars, as far as energy and radiation resistance goes.

    And as far as "he can keep them busy defending from radiation" - he doesn't have a speed edge in this fight, so the fusion is also going to be acting, and acting hard enough to hurt surfer, so he needs to pay attention to defense while he's at whatever he wants to do.

    I guess the question comes up with how the board is going to treat a stacked composite. It's not a thing in comics, so we don't really have feats for it. It has to just be a board rule. I'll go check the thread, as I don't recall the point being weighed.

    EDIT: There is nothing about a composite, stacked or otherwise, in the current rules or mod rulings.
    Last edited by big_adventure; 04-04-2020 at 01:43 AM.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta

    "Get off my lawn!

    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."
    - Sharpandpointies

    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    It tracks just fine as it has little to nothing to do with durability. Gladiator craps out when faced with said frequency to the point that a shot of it put him into such agony that he had to burrow underground to escape it. A couple more zaps planted him helplessly for an extended portion of a fight.

    Batman can be killed by a bullet. A fusion of Batman and Superman would not be killed by a bullet.
    Exposure to a bullet doesn't begin to physically weaken and excruciate Batman. Trying to analogize this to bullets handwaves the nature of this. Being hit with a one shot burst (enough to frame his body basically) at the frequency plunged Gladiator into such pain that he hurled himself underground on sheer thoughtless animal instinct to get away from it. Being double blasted laid him out such that he spent a chunk of a fight unable to move. It was a heroic maximum effort thing for him to manage to rip up a chunk of street up at Fake Storm to unbalance her and get him free of it.

    If you shoot Batman non fatally, Batman's not going to plunge into a world of unbearable convulsive agony that causes him to lose control to his fight or flight instincts for the sheer overwhelming pain of it for his sheer, for lack of a better word, allergy to bullets. (if you shoot him fatally, he will be dead and wouldn't be able to have that reaction anyway)

    And as far as "he can keep them busy defending from radiation" - he doesn't have a speed edge in this fight, so the fusion is also going to be acting, and acting hard enough to hurt surfer, so he needs to pay attention to defense while he's at whatever he wants to do.
    Gladiator reacts really badly to the radiation frequency. It's trivial for the Surfer to generate a whole pile of it.

    Gladiator has a weakness to a certain radiation that bypasses his defenses. But Thor does not, so you'd also need to get past that toughness. And it's a dude who also hangs out in stars, as far as energy and radiation resistance goes.
    Again, Gladiator is a guy who swims in stars. No help to him.

    This isn't the equivalent of "against the specific frequency of radiation, Gladiator now has the durability of 'a guy'". This is Gladiator has a bad, bad adverse reaction to when that crap hits him. I compare it to kryptonite because similarly, that's not a durability thing.

    To phrase it another way, it's the equivalent of saying that if you stack someone with a classical vampire, the composite vampire is now immune to being effed up by holy water because the other guy isn't weak to holy water. That Thor can be inside a star or what have you doesn't take away from a unique thing that screws Gladiator up.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-04-2020 at 02:25 AM.

  13. #13
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    It tracks just fine as it has little to nothing to do with durability. Gladiator craps out when faced with said frequency to the point that a shot of it put him into such agony that he had to burrow underground to escape it. A couple more zaps planted him helplessly for an extended portion of a fight.



    Exposure to a bullet doesn't begin to physically weaken and excruciate Batman. Trying to analogize this to bullets handwaves the nature of this. Being hit with a one shot burst (enough to frame his body basically) at the frequency plunged Gladiator into such pain that he hurled himself underground on sheer thoughtless animal instinct to get away from it. Being double blasted laid him out such that he spent a chunk of a fight unable to move (fortunately his enemies adopted a brilliant tactic he himself would later employ from learning from their peerless example; 'do sweet eff all so my opponent has time to recover').

    If you shoot Batman non fatally, Batman's not going to plunge into a world of unbearable convulsive agony that causes him to lose control to his fight or flight instincts for the sheer overwhelming pain of it for his sheer, for lack of a better word, allergy to bullets. (if you shoot him fatally, he will be dead and wouldn't be able to have that reaction anyway)
    I get all that, but shooting Batman will have an adverse effect on his ability to fight. Shooting Superman will not at all. So the comp isn't going to be "half affected" by a couple of bullets.

    Let's loook at it another way: Batman, as a human, is going to be 99.9% likely to die from a pneumonic form of plague. Superman has no chance of dying from it at all. Batman is thus weak to plague. Is the composite therefore weak to plague? Batman is weak to ultraviolet radiation: it's going to burn his pasty ass skin and give him cancer. Superman? Not so much. Does the composite suffer Batman's weakness?

    And if you don't like that last example, it's literally exactly what you are arguing: a Strontian has a weakness to a specific radiation (let's call it, I dunno, "Riptonite"), it'll hurt him, weaken him, kill him. Thor does not. You are arguing that the stacked composite would have this weakness. But I don't think that you would want to argue that SuperBat would be feeble to UV rays.

    We are really down to arguing what a stacked composite does. Your position is clear: that the stacked composite preserves all weakness at their full strength. My position is the opposite: that the stack also gains the resistances of both people. I think that mine is more logical, you are entitled to your opinion of the contrary, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Gladiator reacts really badly to the radiation frequency. It's trivial for the Surfer to generate a whole pile of it.



    Again, Gladiator is a guy who swims in stars. No help to him.

    This isn't the equivalent of "against the specific frequency of radiation, Gladiator now has the durability of 'a guy'". This is Gladiator has a bad, bad adverse reaction to when that crap hits him.
    This is a stacked composite, Thor has no weakness at all to this radiation. See Superman / Batman v. UV rays above.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta

    "Get off my lawn!

    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."
    - Sharpandpointies

    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  14. #14
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Let's chuck in another one!

    Stacked comp of Superman and Wonder Woman. Is the composite vulnerable to bullets? Because Wonder Woman specifically is. I would argue no.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta

    "Get off my lawn!

    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."
    - Sharpandpointies

    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Let's chuck in another one!

    Stacked comp of Superman and Wonder Woman. Is the composite vulnerable to bullets? Because Wonder Woman specifically is. I would argue no.
    Wonder Woman isn't specifically vulnerable to bullets. Wonder Woman has compartmentalized durability. This isn't a comparable thing. Wonder Woman happens to not be durable to slashing/piercing attacks. If you shoot or stab Wonder Woman she won't scream in agony, convulse and momentarily freak right the hell out for knowing "pain beyond anything (s)he has ever felt before".

    This, despite that Gladiator has otherwise been hurt with all kinds of crap in his centuries long career.


    Let's loook at it another way: Batman, as a human, is going to be 99.9% likely to die from a pneumonic form of plague. Superman has no chance of dying from it at all. Batman is thus weak to plague. Is the composite therefore weak to plague? Batman is weak to ultraviolet radiation: it's going to burn his pasty ass skin and give him cancer. Superman? Not so much. Does the composite suffer Batman's weakness?
    Ultraviolet radiation that might give Batman a sunburn later or melanoma is not going to make Batman a helpless pile on the ground for being hit with it from two directions at once. These things are not comparable.

    You are trying to handwave the degree of reaction Gladiator has to this with things that are in no way similar.

    We are really down to arguing what a stacked composite does. Your position is clear: that the stacked composite preserves all weakness at their full strength. My position is the opposite: that the stack also gains the resistances of both people. I think that mine is more logical, you are entitled to your opinion of the contrary, I suppose.
    Your position ignores the context of the depth to which Gladiator's reactions are portrayed in favour of analogies to things that aren't especially analogous.

    It's again far closer to vampires and holy water, or, for the guy he's ripping off, Superman and kryptonite, over "well Batman can be shot." It's a fundamental debilitating reaction to a specific thing worked into their makeup for existing. Some blanket "well Thor can be in a star" isn't particularly going to wipe that away.

    It's like the stories where faeries touching cold iron will cause them monumental agony and rob them of their strength. Stacking said faerie with a guy with no cold iron problems doesn't make that go away, it just means the other guy has no problems with cold iron.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-04-2020 at 02:46 AM.

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