Do dc fans/casuals(general) like superman getting beat up by batman stories?

[manwhohaseverything]

This is for people for that are general dc audience and not particularly aimed at superman fans. I want to know if you guys really like the batman beats up superman stories. So, that i could understand the fervor with which Dark knight returns is being remade. This need for a evil superman for batman to beat up has been cemented, why it exists. If you like it, what do you get from it? Is it cathartic? Why do you like evil superman stories? Do you think the character is boring? Does that play into seeing the character turned evil?

As a sub-discussion, This thread is also for having a discussion specifically for non fans(including haters and people who are indifferent), but fans can take part in also. See it has been my observation that, fundamentally superman has struggled to appease its core fanbase and non fans at the same time.Not to mention these wierd perceptions and expectations which either are in negative or positive regard. The character has become controversial many like him, many don't and some despise him. There in lies character's struggle in modern era. What would you suggest the company do?

[Menacer]

I havent read the dark knight returns...

Mostly cause the art is unappealing. I did have strikes again given to me but couldnt read past a few pages... another reason I probably havent read DKR.

Recently read All Star Superman... I'm a Morrison fan but I hated the book, also avoided reading for a long time cause I didn't like the art. Thank god I got it for a 3rd of the price.

If I find dkr on sale I'll grab it...

As for a fan of Superman. I have a big comic collection and Superman dominates it. I love superman in the comic world.

As for Batman he's good in JL stories or group settings, thus far don't connect as much with him in comics when he's in his own book...

Batman is more interesting in film.

Superman has yet to really be portrayed in a way that makes me care about him on film.

As for evil Superman stories, frankly I feel comics are a type of medium where all takes can exist, even things I don't like, variety, experimentation and creativity are good.

Superman Doomed I thought was a great evil Superman story for example.


Injustice is brilliant, maybe it's debatable but a dictator Superman is evil and those books are awesome.


As for Batman beating Superman all the time, I think people like this cause ultimately Batman is more relatable because he is human, and Superman is alien...so it's hard not to root for Batman.

Comic plots are recycled, film plots are recycled... but if something is done well it transcends the unoriginal and becomes new and fresh, plus most will not have read those old stories, so it'll be fresh to them.

For a variety of reasons I didn't enjoy Joker with Joaquin... for one it felt like Taxi Driver... I bet you 90% or more people who saw Joker had never even seen or possibly even heard of Taxi Driver, and those that had seen it saw it once decades ago or in passing over the years... I happen to have owned Taxi Driver as a teenager, was a huge movie for me, so Joker felt to me ... well it just didnt work... plus I hate origin stories, especially for Joker, especially the ones that portray him as pathetic...

Anyways I'm going off here. We all connect with different things and bizarrely our past experiences really impact how we feel about future films or comics.

Good Superman is amazing, but evil Superman is a fun character to read too.

As far as comics we have huge variety and we can use more of good and evil superman.

As far as film I wish they could get good superman right even once in a modern film, cause I'm not pleased with what we have.

[Vampire Savior]

I think this largely has to do with power levels, and I also think the idea of Batman beating up Superman is something more popular with very casual fans of the characters these days...I think.

People find Batman inspiring because he has no powers and risks his life to fight crime. He also represents the regular man, while Superman is an alien. Batman also worked super hard to be able to do what he does, while Superman was more or less born with his powers. Some people don't find Superman that inspiring because they perceive him as able to do anything, so there isn't nearly as much risk involved for him, and he was just gifted with his abilities. The very famous images people have seen of Clark Kent being totally useless and pathetically weak without the powers he just has (see Superman II), also makes the character seem even less than us when you take away the powers he just happened to have. All this contributes to a lot of people preferring Batman over Superman.

Since the idea of a hero taking on insurmountable odds is still popular with people, they may have it in their minds that Superman--this indestructible ultra-powerful figure who was just given his powers and who is often pointed out to be set apart from regular people--actually makes for a more interesting villain than a hero. And who better to take him on than a regular man who represents the best of what a person can achieve if they work super hard?

[manwhohaseverything]

I think this largely has to do with power levels, and I also think the idea of Batman beating up Superman is something more popular with very casual fans of the characters these days...I think.

People find Batman inspiring because he has no powers and risks his life to fight crime. He also represents the regular man, while Superman is an alien. Batman also worked super hard to be able to do what he does, while Superman was more or less born with his powers. Some people don't find Superman that inspiring because they perceive him as able to do anything, so there isn't nearly as much risk involved for him, and he was just gifted with his abilities. The very famous images people have seen of Clark Kent being totally useless and pathetically weak without the powers he just has (see Superman II), also makes the character seem even less than us when you take away the powers he just happened to have. All this contributes to a lot of people preferring Batman over Superman.

Since the idea of a hero taking on insurmountable odds is still popular with people, they may have it in their minds that Superman--this indestructible ultra-powerful figure who was just given his powers and who is often pointed out to be set apart from regular people--actually makes for a more interesting villain than a hero. And who better to take him on than a regular man who represents the best of what a person can achieve if they work super hard?

If that is your view. would you say a more goldenage superman portrayel would work better? See, golden age superman was a strongman. He didn't use to get his powers from the sun nor did he get stronger by sunbathing. Although he was born with potential and strength . He had to work to get stronger or faster. He did the strongman training. Which means get stronger while doing things that mattered, even while during fighting stronger opponents and more powerful feats. An example, would be deku or allmight in the current modern world.Deku cleaning a beach.



Also darwyn cooke superman portrayels, clark had no idea how invulnerable he would be. Yet, he would jump to save people infront of a bullet or lava or ice. There is also fact that goldenage superman used to have limits. He could get hurt badly by shells and armour piercing rounds. Ofcourse, he got more durable.So,he didn't exactly knew what could hurt him, until he tanks it or gets hurt by it . Even, clark's first rescue and coming out party by smashing the car in action comics#1 is more instinctual than planned.The Superman was more of an urban legend before then. He then became a vigilante.

So, clark not working to get stronger and him not really being brave can be mitigated. I can understand getting stronger without doing anything- complaint currently, though. I have had the same. But, i do believe he still goes back to fight things that could snap him like a twig.Do you feel lack of consequences like a broken back or cut off arm not happening to superman affects or undercuts the conflict between superman and his foes? I mean, we never really see superman struggling with injuries and such.

[Midnight_v]

I mean yeah... its the triumph of man vs god. Moxie underdog stories are good.
Its just underused.
At least in the injustice book they gave him kryptonian pills or something

[manwhohaseverything]

I mean yeah... its the triumph of man vs god. Moxie underdog stories are good.
Its just underused.
At least in the injustice book they gave him kryptonian pills or something

Superman isn't really a god,though. He is an alien who lives among us and as one of us. Don't you think bruce is just beating up someone who isn't even competing? I mean, superman is never at his best and allmost handicapped. What's the point in beating someone like that? Is that really him overcoming an obstacle or him placating the feeling of inferiority/jealousy? What difference does bruce and lex have then?

[Midnight_v]

Superman isn't really a god,though. He is an alien who lives among us and as one of us. Don't you think bruce is just beating up someone who isn't even competing? I mean, superman is never at his best and allmost handicapped. What's the point in beating someone like that? Is that really him overcoming an obstacle or him placating the feeling of inferiority/jealousy? What difference does bruce and lex have then?

1st. Let me go back and say I meant *Overused* 2nd. He... is kinda a god, but I get you. 3. I never thought about it

[manwhohaseverything]

1st. Let me go back and say I meant *Overused* 2nd. He... is kinda a god, but I get you. 3. I never thought about it

How? Are metahumans gods? Sure, when you get to a certain powerlevel as part of the power creep you become god like. Well, isn't that happening to batman? He beats up darkseid. He defeated the entire justice league. I don't see green arrow or question doing that. Power creep is a natural thing in action environment. As for being, born with powers or potential like gods. well, bruce is very naturally talented and much of it is also thanks to his genetics, not to mention resources he inherited .He has higher learning curve by birth. otherwise, him learning all the martial arts, sciences,.. Etc would not be possible . So, don't you think clark and bruce are in the same boat?So if we are calling one god, wouldn't it be disingenuous to call another not?

[j9ac9k]

I'd love to see a de-powered Superman beat up Batman - for the same reason Batman beating Superman was originally dramatic - because there's no way he should be able to so it's interesting to see how he does it.

[superduperman]

I think the only people who want to see them fight at all are hard core Batman fans who have a weird hate on for Superman. The only people who keep bringing this up are Batman fans who seem to hate Superman.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think the only people who want to see them fight at all are hard core Batman fans who have a weird hate on for Superman. The only people who keep bringing this up are Batman fans who seem to hate Superman.

As much as i would want to believe that. There is something deeper going on. Otherwise, the character wouldn't be this controversial and evoke this many emotions in different people. It's like john cena entered the arena. Furthermore, the character has had really different evolution compared to his contemporaries be it spiderman, wonder woman or batman.

This post has a background and a context. This was done because of the injustice movie starting to trend. See, tom taylor took a fun poke at zack snyder superman by advocating with ed boon for an injustice movie, in a fun manner. People took it seriously and wanted it to happen.So, i would like to have discussion on why is it so appealing to people that aren't superman fans. Ofcourse, superman fans can join. It's more of an attempt to make the character appealing to them as well as superman fans.

[C_Miller]

I think a lot of it has to do with the similarities to a Sports movie. Batman is Rocky, The Mighty Ducks, Rudy, the Dillon Panthers without star quarterback Jason Street, the 1980 U.S. Hockey team. Superman is Apollo Creed, The Hawks, and the USSR. Except not evil... usually. Batman beating Superman I think gives people that same feeling of inspiration. That normal people can overcome insurmountable odds. Unfortunately, it is pretty cliche at this point and has more to do with overpowering Batman than anything else. I do sympathize with Superman fans. It seems like DC Comics is obsessed with nerfing Superman.

I will say though, I do think comic book fans are generally a little too preoccupied with power levels. There's a large segment of the fanbase that avoids well-written stories if they feel like their favorite characters are being shown as weak.

[Frontier]

I've seen some "Batman has no chance against Superman" stories.

I think the only people who want to see them fight at all are hard core Batman fans who have a weird hate on for Superman. The only people who keep bringing this up are Batman fans who seem to hate Superman.

As Batman himself once said...no one really wins in a fight between Batman and Superman.

[Gurz]

Come on, nothing is wrong with Batman showing some tough love to Superman to show him, who is the boss. It's tough love. jk.

But i like how two best friends turning on each other, it's so dramatic.

[manwhohaseverything]

Come on, nothing is wrong with Batman showing some tough love to Superman to show him, who is the boss. It's tough love. jk.

But i like how two best friends turning on each other, it's so dramatic.

While, I can understand the logic behind that. But, the issue is the stories aren't done in unbiased way.Batman is always the protagonist in these stories. That too a righteous protagonist. These stories hollowfy superman like pipin in berserk and later tear him in half.It isn't a genuine conflict between two perspectives or ideas. It's battle between an idea and twisted version of an idea.Sadly, the twisted idea is superman. So i would like to understand why people like to twist superman as an idea much more than batman.