DC ending the animated movie universe?

[godisawesome]

I’ll confess a lot of my distaste for the “New 52” DC Movies is that they tended to somehow hit most of my exact little pet peeves to just disinterest me in them from film to film that I watched, with only a handful of moments that managed to get back to me. They managed to choose a selection of some stories I have no interest in seeing adapted, or would want to see heavily modified... or adapt something I liked, but adapt it too heavily.

I mean, I have no interest in a Batman family that just has Dick and Damian as Robin.

I’ve grown sick of Trigon and Raven stories.

The fact they had to “fix” Deathstroke ticked me off in the first place... than they kept the Terra and Deathstroke thing that I just don’t like in Judas Contract.

Adapting Hush, but managing to get a cold performance from O’Mara in the now more important Catwoman storyline, and deciding to adapt the story in an underwhelming fashion instead of trying to incorporate some of Paul Dini’s work was just hitting the right string of little things to make me check out early (okay, and Stupid Bane, because for the life of me I can’t see why the hell Stupid Bane even still exists in any animators mind. I don’t care if they come up with an excuse for him being an idiot, don’t make Bane an idiot.)

Justice League War was just always a lame Avengers knockoff to me.

Their action scenes were often good but I felt they were all dazzle dazzle and rarely paced well - my one exception would be the Superman vs Doomsday fight.

And again, I can’t emphasize enough how much I disliked having the films keep doing their thing while I always felt that we needed more Young Jutsice.

Hey, here’s an idea: why doesn’t someone in the films division see if Weismann and co. Have any movie storyline ideas they want to do in the better continuity?

You know you’d watch the $#!+ out of it... and it probably would be almost guaranteed to be better than the “New 52” movies.

[Noodle]

But those films essentially did adapt those stories into animation. I mean, Hush may have messed with the ending but 88-90% of the story was from the comics.

Just because it was adapted into an established continuity doesn't negate it as an adaption in my opinion. Superman: Doomsday was a standalone film adaption of Death of Superman but the in-continuity adaption was much more truer to the comic storyline.

I mean, kinda but not?

Take Death/Return of Superman. I would have much preferred to see JLI over an established Justice League as they aren't often adapted. I would have preferred Mongul to Darkseid because Darkseid is overused at this point. Making that change just to have it tie into the pre-existing Darkseid continuity of this shared universe hurt the films in my mind.

[Frontier]

Maybe if the JL team up movies were better and the established dynamics had any meat on them bones, but with we got, it was no more poignant to me than if it had been a standalone. This version of the JL after all those movies had no more interest to me personally than a new take would have. There was just too much lacking in quality for me.

I thought the film had a good depiction of their dynamic though. I liked the briefing scene a lot.

I don't know, even some Damian fans didn't like this version (there were reviews when the films were new).

For myself, I don't think they handled his character development as well as they could have but it was still pretty true to the source. He's not an easy character to adapt well.

The voice actor was fine, pretty good really, but again nothing that couldn't have been in a standalone, and the scripts and dialogue he got could've been a lot better. Again I liked him more in the Lego and Batman Unlimited stuff.

I thought he had good material in Bad Blood, Judas Contract, and Hush (having Dick come up with a couple name for Bruce and Selina was awesome, and the car ride scene with Catwoman).

And, again, it doesn't really matter to me if they could have done it in a standalone when what matters is that it was that specific version of Nightwing used in this instance.

Maybe, maybe not. Again, the very, very few things that might have needed the shared continuity to happen (and there's not a lot) doesn't justify the dip in quality (my opinion). Hard to argue "would" and "could" happens, who knows what would have happened without the continuity. Could have still gotten a lot.

I'm just saying that it was the producers of the animated continuity who thought to adapt them into that continuity. Timm never did those films (or accurately in the case of Death/Reign) during his tenure so we may never have seen them adapted as standalones in the line.

Yes, but while you prove there's an exception to very rule - most people didn't like that they did these story beats and decisions with this shared universe in mind. A lot of us felt the end result was weaker for it. Look at all the complaints about various adaptations and decisions for these movies.

I feel like a lot of people just bring their biases toward the animated continuity in terms of looking at them adapting the stories. For all they know standalone adaptions would've ended up making similar story decisions in terms of adapting them.

I hear complaints about the ending of Hush but less so about the adaptions of Judas Contract or Death/Reign.

And yet a lot of people still complained about the change.

I know. I didn't think it was handled as well as it could have been, but I can kinda see where the creators were coming from.

True Death of Superman was a lot better than Doomsday - I never argued that all standalones were better or all shared continuity films are crap. I'm just arguing the averages. DoS is the one really shiny jewel of the continuity films. But the standalones have more. Plus that film could have just as easily been standalone and retained most of what made it good.

I'd argue there is more then one jewel in the in-continuity films then just DoS. Maybe they weren't all A-tier quality but there were good films in the line that I think offered new content and stories that we hadn't seen in the animated films before.

I'm sorry if you're really going to miss this iteration of continuity, but I'm a lot, lot more excited and hopeful for the future movies now with this shared universe behind us than I was when it still seemed ongoing for the foreseeable future. I have only been looking forward to the out of continuity releases for like 3 years now. I've just had my fingers crossed on every in continuity film hoping they'll be better this time (and occasionally they have). Without continuity, I don't have to cross my fingers so much. Yeah there will be mediocre films, there will be clunkers, but I have faith that the average will be higher than it's been in years.

For me, I don't know what to expect, but I'm just going to miss the potential of this shared universe and all the stuff they were able to introduce and include that we may never see again and might not have ever gotten around to in standalone movies.

I'm not sure if there can be an expectations that the average will be higher now since it's going to be a new regime handling things altogether. Timm is probably not coming back full-time (and even he can deliver a stinker like Batman and Harley Quinn and the changes to Killing Joke). And even then, it really all depends on the specific creative team. So I'm not imagining it will be that different.

I mean, I have no interest in a Batman family that just has Dick and Damian as Robin.

They've expanded the family in these films though.

I’ve grown sick of Trigon and Raven stories.

I thought it was a good point to introduce the Titans with though.

The fact they had to “fix” Deathstroke ticked me off in the first place... than they kept the Terra and Deathstroke thing that I just don’t like in Judas Contract.

I mean, yeah, it's kind of indicative that they screwed Slade up to begin with but I'd rather praise the final product then harp on the original. The Terra and Deathstroke thing is true to the source and I felt like they handled it as well as could be expected.

Adapting Hush, but managing to get a cold performance from O’Mara in the now more important Catwoman storyline, and deciding to adapt the story in an underwhelming fashion instead of trying to incorporate some of Paul Dini’s work was just hitting the right string of little things to make me check out early (okay, and Stupid Bane, because for the life of me I can’t see why the hell Stupid Bane even still exists in any animators mind. I don’t care if they come up with an excuse for him being an idiot, don’t make Bane an idiot.)

There wouldn't have been any sense incorporating the Dini stuff with the way they changed the Hush mystery. I know that is one of the salient complaints about the film, but conceptually I think they changed it to put more emphasis on who the actual mastermind of Hush is (and, admittedly, I thought the performance of the real Hush was one of the stronger points of the movie).

I didn't like how they handled Bane either.

Justice League War was just always a lame Avengers knockoff to me.

They weren't drawing from the best source material.

Their action scenes were often good but I felt they were all dazzle dazzle and rarely paced well - my one exception would be the Superman vs Doomsday fight.

I thought Reign had some good fights too. The Batman and Catwoman team-up against Hush. The Titans vs Deathstroke and Brother Blood. The Batfamily vs the League of Assassins.

To be honest I remember more fights from the movies then I do Outsiders.

And again, I can’t emphasize enough how much I disliked having the films keep doing their thing while I always felt that we needed more Young Jutsice.

It's not like the animated films were preventing more Young Justice any more then Teen Titans Go! was, though.

Hey, here’s an idea: why doesn’t someone in the films division see if Weismann and co. Have any movie storyline ideas they want to do in the better continuity?

You know you’d watch the $#!+ out of it... and it probably would be almost guaranteed to be better than the “New 52” movies.

With as much time as Weisman and co. put into Young Justice the series, would they have any time to dedicate to something like that? It's why I've always been skeptical of any Earth-16 spinoff, even though the universe desperately needs them, when it seems like just the series itself takes a lot of work.

And, again, these films got to focus on or do stuff we probably would never have seen in Earth-16. I think more people like Jerry O'Connel's Superman then they like Nolan North's in Young Justice. And fans really liked the movie version of Superboy.

I mean, kinda but not?

Take Death/Return of Superman. I would have much preferred to see JLI over an established Justice League as they aren't often adapted. I would have preferred Mongul to Darkseid because Darkseid is overused at this point. Making that change just to have it tie into the pre-existing Darkseid continuity of this shared universe hurt the films in my mind.

I think even if they had done it as a standalone there would have been a temptation to throw in a more recognizable League to fight Doomsday, especially since it puts more emphasis on Superman being the only one who can stop it after it takes down all the other big guns. Maybe it would've been the Trinity, Flash, GL, and some of the JLI, but that's about it.

I would've liked a Mongul cameo in the movie but I think Darkseid tied things together sensibly, and the real impetus is Henshaw/Cyborg-Superman, who the films got right.

[Vakanai]

And again, I can’t emphasize enough how much I disliked having the films keep doing their thing while I always felt that we needed more Young Jutsice.

Hey, here’s an idea: why doesn’t someone in the films division see if Weismann and co. Have any movie storyline ideas they want to do in the better continuity?

You know you’d watch the $#!+ out of it... and it probably would be almost guaranteed to be better than the “New 52” movies.

While I don't like the movie continuity we got, I also don't get this. As much as we all love YJ, it's a series focused on one particular cast of young characters progressing over most of a decade in 3 seasons. I mean a YJ movie would be amazing, but making that series the main shared universe for DC animated movies is less than ideal. What works in the series for certain characters might not work with other characters in film. Never mind if you don't watch the series you might feel lost or left out if half the films take place in continuity with that series.

I'd rather not have a shared universe, but if we have to have one I especially don't want it tied into a tv series, however great said series is. A YJ movie I'm in for, a Superman or Batman movie set in YJ continuity I'm considerably less jazzed for.

I thought the film had a good depiction of their dynamic though. I liked the briefing scene a lot.

One scene that didn't really rely on you having seen their previous interactions in that continuity isn't that important on an argument for the continuity. We got equal scenes in Crisis on Two Earths, just as dynamic and impactful. DOS being in continuity just didn't add as much to me. Great film, but the continuity didn't really add to the greatness for me. Didn't subtract that time luckily, just didn't add.

For myself, I don't think they handled his character development as well as they could have but it was still pretty true to the source. He's not an easy character to adapt well.

Perhaps. I like Damian better in the one Batman Unlimited movie he was in, Batman Ninja, the Lego movies, and the TMNT crossover, and save for maybe that last one I suspect he's not very Damian-like in any of those.

I thought he had good material in Bad Blood, Judas Contract, and Hush (having Dick come up with a couple name for Bruce and Selina was awesome, and the car ride scene with Catwoman).

And, again, it doesn't really matter to me if they could have done it in a standalone when what matters is that it was that specific version of Nightwing used in this instance.

Eh, loved Bad Blood as a guilty pleasure dumb movie, but not for him. Mostly forgettable in Hush. Honestly I liked him most in Judas Contract, and that was more Starfire in that case then Dick. I mean sure I'm not a Nightwing/Dick Grayson fan (DC blasphemy I know), but even so I thought his shared universe appearances left more to be desired than elsewhere in other movies (though again his VA did an excellent job).

And again, it doesn't matter that it was that specific Nightwing used in that instance - it was a bad instance (to many of us). Many of us feel like the shared universe has been a bad instance in DC's history of animation.

I'm just saying that it was the producers of the animated continuity who thought to adapt them into that continuity. Timm never did those films (or accurately in the case of Death/Reign) during his tenure so we may never have seen them adapted as standalones in the line.

I feel we almost assuredly would have gotten Hush and Judas Contract, and probably some version of the Court of Owls without the continuity had there been no shared universe for the past several years.

I feel like a lot of people just bring their biases toward the animated continuity in terms of looking at them adapting the stories. For all they know standalone adaptions would've ended up making similar story decisions in terms of adapting them.

Yes, but we don't know. What we so know is what we got, and what we got regarding adapting those stories into the shared universe wasn't what most of us wanted.

I hear complaints about the ending of Hush but less so about the adaptions of Judas Contract or Death/Reign.

I heard complaints. Not really for Death, but some for Reign.

I know. I didn't think it was handled as well as it could have been, but I can kinda see where the creators were coming from.

Really?

I'd argue there is more then one jewel in the in-continuity films then just DoS. Maybe they weren't all A-tier quality but there were good films in the line that I think offered new content and stories that we hadn't seen in the animated films before.

Maybe depends on your definition if jewel. Plenty of movies have been good, but I wouldn't put them on a favorites list or recommend them on a must watch list. And that's my qualification for jewel, something so sparkly or shining you want people to see it. I can't do that for most of these continuity films. I can agree some are good, but I don't have an urge to share them.

For me, I don't know what to expect, but I'm just going to miss the potential of this shared universe and all the stuff they were able to introduce and include that we may never see again and might not have ever gotten around to in standalone movies.

I feel like we did see the potential of this shared universe, and I'm ready to move on. I can respect you aren't, but like I said I haven't been this excited for an upcoming slate of films like this in a long time. Instead of only being interested in the JL: Gods and Monsters, Batman Ninja, Gotham By Gaslight, Batman and TMNT, and Red Son type films, or the Lego and other toyline based films, I can just go back to being excited for everything going forward. And that excites me more than the dead hope that maybe the continuity stuff will one day be worthwhile.

I'm not sure if there can be an expectations that the average will be higher now since it's going to be a new regime handling things altogether. Timm is probably not coming back full-time (and even he can deliver a stinker like Batman and Harley Quinn and the changes to Killing Joke). And even then, it really all depends on the specific creative team. So I'm not imagining it will be that different.

Am I the only one who loved Batman & Harley? I agree the butchered The Killing Joke, but Batman and Harley Quinn was a pretty good comedy I thought.

And I never said there would be no stinkers, just that I really think the films before the continuity were better more often than during continuity. Of course that might change with creative teams or whatever, but for sure the continuity never helped these films. So yeah it might be the not good, but at least there's hope now. I had no hope for the shared universe going forward after the previous films, and I wasn't alone.

[Frontier]

One scene that didn't really rely on you having seen their previous interactions in that continuity isn't that important on an argument for the continuity. We got equal scenes in Crisis on Two Earths, just as dynamic and impactful. DOS being in continuity just didn't add as much to me. Great film, but the continuity didn't really add to the greatness for me. Didn't subtract that time luckily, just didn't add.

I think it was a scene born from what we had seen of these characters interactions with each other in the past and that time has passed for the team since War. I view that differently from stuff like the League in Crisis on Two Earths.

Perhaps. I like Damian better in the one Batman Unlimited movie he was in, Batman Ninja, the Lego movies, and the TMNT crossover, and save for maybe that last one I suspect he's not very Damian-like in any of those.

Pretty much. There are elements in there from the comics in each interpretation, but the animated film continuity is the closest to being a fully-fleshed out adaption of the comics.

Eh, loved Bad Blood as a guilty pleasure dumb movie, but not for him. Mostly forgettable in Hush. Honestly I liked him most in Judas Contract, and that was more Starfire in that case then Dick. I mean sure I'm not a Nightwing/Dick Grayson fan (DC blasphemy I know), but even so I thought his shared universe appearances left more to be desired than elsewhere in other movies (though again his VA did an excellent job).

We saw him talk down a mind-controlled Batman, assemble the Batfamily, and be the only Titan to not get captured by Deathstroke. I thought he had some good moments.

Plus the team-up with Robin to fight Deathstroke at the end was pretty awesome.

And again, it doesn't matter that it was that specific Nightwing used in that instance - it was a bad instance (to many of us). Many of us feel like the shared universe has been a bad instance in DC's history of animation.

I think that's an over-exaggeration. I would say the weakest era was when they initially started out with Justice League War and Son of Batman, but they steadily improved from there.

I feel we almost assuredly would have gotten Hush and Judas Contract, and probably some version of the Court of Owls without the continuity had there been no shared universe for the past several years.

Hush, maybe. Judas Contract was already canned under Timm's era originally. I don't know about Court of Owls.

Yes, but we don't know. What we so know is what we got, and what we got regarding adapting those stories into the shared universe wasn't what most of us wanted.

I believe what we got isn't that different from what people were expecting if you look at the actual content.

I heard complaints. Not really for Death, but some for Reign.

The complaints about Reign were about how they had to condense Reign and The Return storylines into one movie, but I don't think those changes had anything to do with it being an in-continuity film. It would've been the same issue had it been standalone.

Really?

Yeah, especially when the mystery of Hush is seen as one of the weaker elements of the whole story.

Maybe depends on your definition if jewel. Plenty of movies have been good, but I wouldn't put them on a favorites list or recommend them on a must watch list. And that's my qualification for jewel, something so sparkly or shining you want people to see it. I can't do that for most of these continuity films. I can agree some are good, but I don't have an urge to share them.

I would recommend several, personally, if DC fans are asking for good DC Animated Films. I'd put Death/Reign and Judas Contract up there with the top DC Animated films.

I feel like we did see the potential of this shared universe, and I'm ready to move on. I can respect you aren't, but like I said I haven't been this excited for an upcoming slate of films like this in a long time. Instead of only being interested in the JL: Gods and Monsters, Batman Ninja, Gotham By Gaslight, Batman and TMNT, and Red Son type films, or the Lego and other toyline based films, I can just go back to being excited for everything going forward. And that excites me more than the dead hope that maybe the continuity stuff will one day be worthwhile.

I'll have to see what they have planned before I can get excited. With the shared universe, it was like watching a cartoon series waiting to see what would be next or the next entry in the series and what they would get to do, but I don't see any of that in Man of Tomorrow.

Am I the only one who loved Batman & Harley? I agree the butchered The Killing Joke, but Batman and Harley Quinn was a pretty good comedy I thought.

It felt very low-brow to me. I especially hated the Nightwing and Harley stuff.

And I never said there would be no stinkers, just that I really think the films before the continuity were better more often than during continuity. Of course that might change with creative teams or whatever, but for sure the continuity never helped these films. So yeah it might be the not good, but at least there's hope now. I had no hope for the shared universe going forward after the previous films, and I wasn't alone.

I don't think the continuity particularly hurt either. I used to be very cynical about the in-continuity films but they were starting to really grow on me...ah well.

[Farealmer]

I'll have to see what they have planned before I can get excited. With the shared universe, it was like watching a cartoon series waiting to see what would be next or the next entry in the series and what they would get to do, but I don't see any of that in Man of Tomorrow.

This, i've seen most of the films that came out and out of them I definately was less impressed with the stand alones. Red Son, Gotham by Gaslight, Batman and Harley Quinn, and Batman Ninja were damn near unwatchable. That was hours of my life i'll never get back. I can appreciate both kinds of films but for me the stand alones tend to come off worse because they just do whatever they wish with almost no filter and the results tend to reflect that. JL: Gods and Monsters was the only one that felt refreshing to me.

[Guy_McNichts]

I say good riddance.

When they announced a new animated Wonder Woman movie, I was real excited...until they confirmed it was part of the current shared universe. Then my interest nose-dived, because this continuity has been absolute trash.
And even though there were little actual plot points in Bloodlines that connected it to the other movies, it really did nag in the back of my mind. When Diana was getting beaten down by Medusa, all I could think was: "Wow, even in her own movie Wonder Woman is getting her ass kicked and needs to be rescued."

I just find it so unnecessary. There was no reason for half of these movies to be connected, especially when it only amounted to characters being needlessly shoe-horned into movies just to get quickly brushed aside or jobbed out.

If you can't tell a story in your shared universe without devoting a portion of every plot to getting rid of non-essential characters or (worse) reducing them to ineffectual jobbers, don't do a shared universe.
I would rather Wonder Woman not be in a movie at all if her only role is to get beaten into the ground in order to artificially raise the stakes.

[BigLbo]

I didn’t mind the shared universe, I just didn’t like the new 52 universe. I say do the classic stories as standalone and the shared universe stuff separately.

[Vakanai]

I think it was a scene born from what we had seen of these characters interactions with each other in the past and that time has passed for the team since War. I view that differently from stuff like the League in Crisis on Two Earths.

Pretty much. There are elements in there from the comics in each interpretation, but the animated film continuity is the closest to being a fully-fleshed out adaption of the comics.

We saw him talk down a mind-controlled Batman, assemble the Batfamily, and be the only Titan to not get captured by Deathstroke. I thought he had some good moments.

Plus the team-up with Robin to fight Deathstroke at the end was pretty awesome.

I think that's an over-exaggeration. I would say the weakest era was when they initially started out with Justice League War and Son of Batman, but they steadily improved from there.

Hush, maybe. Judas Contract was already canned under Timm's era originally. I don't know about Court of Owls.

I believe what we got isn't that different from what people were expecting if you look at the actual content.

The complaints about Reign were about how they had to condense Reign and The Return storylines into one movie, but I don't think those changes had anything to do with it being an in-continuity film. It would've been the same issue had it been standalone.

Yeah, especially when the mystery of Hush is seen as one of the weaker elements of the whole story.

I would recommend several, personally, if DC fans are asking for good DC Animated Films. I'd put Death/Reign and Judas Contract up there with the top DC Animated films.

I'll have to see what they have planned before I can get excited. With the shared universe, it was like watching a cartoon series waiting to see what would be next or the next entry in the series and what they would get to do, but I don't see any of that in Man of Tomorrow.

It felt very low-brow to me. I especially hated the Nightwing and Harley stuff.

I don't think the continuity particularly hurt either. I used to be very cynical about the in-continuity films but they were starting to really grow on me...ah well.

Going to be honest, the posts are getting long enough I feel the need to just say agree to disagree than take enough time to really continue with this. Besides, it doesn't matter anyway, the continuity is done.

[Vakanai]

This, i've seen most of the films that came out and out of them I definately was less impressed with the stand alones. Red Son, Gotham by Gaslight, Batman and Harley Quinn, and Batman Ninja were damn near unwatchable. That was hours of my life i'll never get back. I can appreciate both kinds of films but for me the stand alones tend to come off worse because they just do whatever they wish with almost no filter and the results tend to reflect that. JL: Gods and Monsters was the only one that felt refreshing to me.

Wow we couldn't be more different people, I loved al of those movies personally, and especially in comparison to most of the continuity films.

[phonogram12]

I actually really liked Batman & Harley. Way more fun than most everything that came out of the shared universe.

Also, I completely forgot Damien was in Hush (and I didn't even watch it that long ago).

Hopefully the new batch of movies will return it to the greatness of New Frontier, Under the Red Hood, Superman vs. the Elite, Dark Knight Returns, Crisis on Two Earths, etc.

[Jackalope89]

The shared universe films had moments, and some films were good all around (Death of Superman, Judas Contract, to name a couple). But overall, the heavy basis in the now defunct and controversial New52, characters being left out (Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and quite a few others), and so on... Yeah. Best to do the Rebirth of the animated filmverse.

[Vakanai]

Best to do the Rebirth of the animated filmverse.

That's the opposite of what I want. Nothing against Rebirth, just against replacing one filmverse with another. No shared filmverse would be best.

[Frontier]

Also, I completely forgot Damien was in Hush (and I didn't even watch it that long ago).

His cameo was kind of hilarious.

The shared universe films had moments, and some films were good all around (Death of Superman, Judas Contract, to name a couple). But overall, the heavy basis in the now defunct and controversial New52, characters being left out (Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and quite a few others), and so on... Yeah. Best to do the Rebirth of the animated filmverse.

In some ways, both in terms of reputation and story-wise, the films never recovered from initially basing themselves around the New 52.

At the same time, considering how stuffed Bad Blood ended up being with Batfamily members, I don't think Jason, Tim, or other family members would have really fit in. Maybe if the line had continued and they had gotten to do more Batman films, but at least Batwoman and Batwing got to have their animated debuts.

It's funny you mention Rebirth when people speculated that the ending of Apokolips War was going to see a reboot of the timeline for a new, more Rebirth-esque, continuity before it was announced Tucker was leaving. It's anyone's guess what direction the line is going to take now when we don't even know who's really running things.