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  1. #61
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    tbh all X-Men Red gave us was empty hope and meaningless rhetoric about Jean’s vision. It was the same “things could be getting better but slowly” that Heroic Age, Regenesis, and ResurreXion were but it wasn’t nearly bold enough. It had the plus of being a stand out amongst a pile of crappy main titles but if you stare at the plot too long, it falls right apart.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    tbh all X-Men Red gave us was empty hope and meaningless rhetoric about Jean’s vision. It was the same “things could be getting better but slowly” that Heroic Age, Regenesis, and ResurreXion were but it wasn’t nearly bold enough. It had the plus of being a stand out amongst a pile of crappy main titles but if you stare at the plot too long, it falls right apart.
    That was because the status quo is God in comics, not because the characters did anything wrong. Krakoa might stay around a while due Hickman's editorial might and it embraces the "everyone hates and fears" mutants brand. The X-men will never solve this, since they're in an adventure serial not a manga or a novel trilogy where progress is allowed. It's like expecting the Avengers to wipe out all super-villains forever from Marvel, it's not going to happen.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Maestro 216's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That was because the status quo is God in comics, not because the characters did anything wrong. Krakoa might stay around a while due Hickman's editorial might and it embraces the "everyone hates and fears" mutants brand. The X-men will never solve this, since they're in an adventure serial not a manga or a novel trilogy where progress is allowed. It's like expecting the Avengers to wipe out all super-villains forever from Marvel, it's not going to happen.
    The thing is we want a sign things are improving like real civil rights. If Krakoa gets Genoshia'd then we will have spun out back to where we started with nothing changed. People get tired of the same thing.

  4. #64
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That was because the status quo is God in comics, not because the characters did anything wrong. Krakoa might stay around a while due Hickman's editorial might and it embraces the "everyone hates and fears" mutants brand. The X-men will never solve this, since they're in an adventure serial not a manga or a novel trilogy where progress is allowed. It's like expecting the Avengers to wipe out all super-villains forever from Marvel, it's not going to happen.
    The whole motto of the X-Men wasn’t just “everyone hates and fears.” It was a minority metaphor with the phrase “protect a world that hates and fears them.” And although it wasn’t known at the time, it was toting very middle-of-the-line politics that never changed for decades and only looked worse as time when on. Hickman revitalized the concept by bringing the metaphor to the logical next step after all the unnecessary stories that made things torturously dire every chance possible for mutantkind. It also happens to line up with the envisioned goal of the Black Nationalist/Pan-Africanism movement.

    It’s a win/win. And it doesn’t even stunt storytelling for the X-Men as we can see from the breadth of new villains we’re getting.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rzerox21xx View Post
    I remember that ending of X-MEN RED where Taylor ended the run with a hope note and then the X-men disassembled happened and it like they took that hope spot for mutant kind and did a 180 where all humans hate mutants and things look bleak when Roserberg started his Uncanny Run, I felt that sorta negated all Tom Taylor did in X-MEN RED which I didn't like. Its like all the hard work Jean's Team in X-MEN RED was all for nothing.
    because the run itself was circular as hell, tried to come up with something new and "special" but ended up at the exact same place in the end as it started.
    it wasnt hopefull, it was simplistic and reductive of mutant issues to a simple case of "lack of empathy" when it was so much more.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    The whole motto of the X-Men wasn’t just “everyone hates and fears.” It was a minority metaphor with the phrase “protect a world that hates and fears them.” And although it wasn’t known at the time, it was toting very middle-of-the-line politics that never changed for decades and only looked worse as time when on. Hickman revitalized the concept by bringing the metaphor to the logical next step after all the unnecessary stories that made things torturously dire every chance possible for mutantkind. It also happens to line up with the envisioned goal of the Black Nationalist/Pan-Africanism movement.

    It’s a win/win. And it doesn’t even stunt storytelling for the X-Men as we can see from the breadth of new villains we’re getting.
    if anything krakoa allows a return to that brand of super heroics witout the x-men looking boot licking fools, neck deep in mutant blood and still trying to serve their way out of genocide like dummies, any mutant that decides to help, of their own accord, will and want, would be 10 times more noble.

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    because the run itself was circular as hell, tried to come up with something new and "special" but ended up at the exact same place in the end as it started.
    it wasnt hopefull, it was simplistic and reductive of mutant issues to a simple case of "lack of empathy" when it was so much more.
    Circular. As. Hell. Jean literally ends the story at the same place she started, except with the Avengers shoehorned in like this wasn’t made post-AvX. Not only did it lack the proper approach to issues it so desperately wanted to get praised for “handling” but had little substance beyond “cool moments w/ Jean & crew!” Which is great considering Jean needed some well-deserves page time after being dead for a decade, but as far as pushing the envelope on the mutant metaphor? Horrible flop. not to mention the Charlottesville redux except, plot twist, the Nazi was actually being mind-controlled & thus needs no accountability. No accountability for anybody! Hurrah!

    if anything krakoa allows a return to that brand of super heroics witout the x-men looking boot licking fools, neck deep in mutant blood and still trying to serve their way out of genocide like dummies, any mutant that decides to help, of their own accord, will and want, would be 10 times more noble.
    We finally get mutants able to be proud of themselves and build a community for themselves. It’s incredibly empowering to read that mutants no longer have to suffer all the time yet put their life on the line for people who literally want them extinct. It makes no sense and thr “their heroes” excuse doesn’t cover it at all. If they were unappreciative, I’d get it. But writers had the X-Men go out of their way to rescue and sacrifice themselves for humans who would turn around and sign mandatory mutant vaccines into law. It was getting unbearably stupid and I’m glad Hickman’s changed it up. Besides, as we’ve seen with X-Force, the mutants have plenty of human allies. There’s nothing about the status quo of Krakoa that means they can’t ever be allies with humans anymore. It just means they recognize their place in the world and are willing to band together and build a culture of their own. It’s really so beautiful. I can tell Hickman and the DoX crew are fans of the X-Men.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Circular. As. Hell. Jean literally ends the story at the same place she started, except with the Avengers shoehorned in like this wasn’t made post-AvX.
    Why did you expect otherwise? Marvel won't ever allow them to make progress, this is outside the character control.

    Not only did it lack the proper approach to issues it so desperately wanted to get praised for “handling” but had little substance beyond “cool moments w/ Jean & crew!” Which is great considering Jean needed some well-deserves page time after being dead for a decade, but as far as pushing the envelope on the mutant metaphor? Horrible flop. not to mention the Charlottesville redux except, plot twist, the Nazi was actually being mind-controlled & thus needs no accountability. No accountability for anybody! Hurrah!
    Accountability isn't a word mutants are known for, even when the X-men were working for the government in the 60's. I don't see Magneto in Krakoa prison for the crimes he done against mutant kind or humanity, or any other villains. Instead he got a pardon from the government he made and became its face to the world.

    We finally get mutants able to be proud of themselves and build a community for themselves.
    That's happened thought the X-line timeline over and over again. This isn't the first nation the X-men or mutants have made, Hickman's building on elements in X-men lore not creating them wholesale.

    It’s incredibly empowering to read that mutants no longer have to suffer all the time yet put their life on the line for people who literally want them extinct. It makes no sense and thr “their heroes” excuse doesn’t cover it at all. If they were unappreciative, I’d get it. But writers had the X-Men go out of their way to rescue and sacrifice themselves for humans who would turn around and sign mandatory mutant vaccines into law.
    You're generalising both sides. Didn't you feel empowered in past runs of the X-men? Not every human wants them extinct. Governments do make bad decisions, they're not immune from being corrupted by bigotry - something Krakoa is getting a first hand experience in at the highest levels. Isoloationism isn't a good political idea, its frustrating to see mutants copying the Inhumans into closing off their community from outsiders.


    It was getting unbearably stupid and I’m glad Hickman’s changed it up. Besides, as we’ve seen with X-Force, the mutants have plenty of human allies. There’s nothing about the status quo of Krakoa that means they can’t ever be allies with humans anymore. It just means they recognize their place in the world and are willing to band together and build a culture of their own. It’s really so beautiful. I can tell Hickman and the DoX crew are fans of the X-Men.
    Mutants have always had human allies. Long term there isn't, but from what know they're trying their best to alienate anyone who ins't a mutant and succeeding. Scott can't be in a room with a human anymore without biting their head off, they're in the same headspace they scolded the New X-men after Decimation. Surely they can find a place in the world without saying Magneto Was Right, that's incredibly defeatist.

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Why did you expect otherwise? Marvel won't ever allow them to make progress, this is outside the character control.
    I didn’t. So I don’t see why it is being brought up like it did anything revolutionary. Yet we’re clearly getting progress in this new era.

    Accountability isn't a word mutants are known for, even when the X-men were working for the government in the 60's. I don't see Magneto in Krakoa prison for the crimes he done against mutant kind or humanity, or any other villains. Instead he got a pardon from the government he made and became its face to the world.
    Magneto’s been a hero for decades so it feels a bit late to punish him for whatever reason. And again, mutants want to start off with a new start and move forward together. Don’t know why the amnesty thing is still being debated when we know exactly why it’s happening. And my point on accountability is in reference to making racism a personified threat instead of tackling the complexity and dangerous nature of an ideology that you can’t shoot out of the sky. I don’t get what that had to do with House of X.

    That's happened thought the X-line timeline over and over again. This isn't the first nation the X-men or mutants have made, Hickman's building on elements in X-men lore not creating them wholesale.
    No, it hasn’t. The only time they showed Genosha as a burgeoning nation, it got blown up. Utopia was never a “community,” it was a reservation and everyone on the island thought they were gonna die.

    You're generalising both sides. Didn't you feel empowered in past runs of the X-men? Not every human wants them extinct. Governments do make bad decisions, they're not immune from being corrupted by bigotry - something Krakoa is getting a first hand experience in at the highest levels. Isoloationism isn't a good political idea, its frustrating to see mutants copying the Inhumans into closing off their community from outsiders.
    What part of my post said every human wanted them extinct? Their tagline is literally to protect a world that hates and fears them. No matter how many “good” or “well-meaning” humans they rescue, they still protect people that are blatantly bigoted towards them and that’s my problem. And they aren’t isolationist, or else they wouldn’t have two-way Krakoan portals in almost every country.

    Mutants have always had human allies.
    Yeah.....thats my point. They’ve had human allies and that doesn’t change in the current era.

    Scott can't be in a room with a human anymore without biting their head off, they're in the same headspace they scolded the New X-men after Decimation. Surely they can find a place in the world without saying Magneto Was Right, that's incredibly defeatist.
    None of this is factual.
    Last edited by Tycon; 04-08-2020 at 02:33 AM.

  10. #70
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    magneto WAS right, but so was xavier, so was the x-men, so was the brotherhood at one point or two, so was the hellfire club, krakoa isnt magneto's vision its a mixture of every mutant faction providing their powers and point of views in a balanced playing field.

    because we have seen time and time again with every bi anual "x-men villain becomes a member and everyone teams up" is that they have more in common than not, and as we have seen everytime the x-men perk up their spines and start to not be passive moorons, and decide to stop taking blows to the face with a smile from the rest of the world, all it takes for a mutant to be deemed a villain is a bad day.

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    "Racism exists only for lack of empathy" is a well-intentioned but simplistic view of a complex problem. There are structural economic and social problems that promote racism.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    I didn’t. So I don’t see why it is being brought up like it did anything revolutionary. Yet we’re clearly getting progress in this new era.
    Then why were you surprised by those actions? "Progress" is debatable, the X-men themselves are regressing on their stances with peace with humanity. Krakoa itself is an indictment of defeatism.

    Magneto’s been a hero for decades so it feels a bit late to punish him for whatever reason. And again, mutants want to start off with a new start and move forward together. Don’t know why the amnesty thing is still being debated when we know exactly why it’s happening. And my point on accountability is in reference to making racism a personified threat instead of tackling the complexity and dangerous nature of an ideology that you can’t shoot out of the sky. I don’t get what that had to do with House of X.
    He really hasn't. There is no time limit for punishing someone for murder and terrorism and no, those aren't minor reasons. They can do that without giving a free pass to actual super-villains which have body counts of small countries. Which ignore accountability when it comes to mutants who have broken the law and committed serious crimes against mutants and humans alike. This isn't about Krakoa its about mutant terrorists being accountable for their crimes. Magneto being Krakoa's face to the world all but tells humanity they don't care about killing humans. When was the last time you heard someone bring that up to him, post- Krakoa? Magneto's ideology is that humanity's day is done and mutants will dominate the planet - he's simply transferred into doing that with soft methods like buying his enemies out rather than floating the in the air and threatening to murder them if they don't do what he says. Magneto, and violet mutants like him, are individuals who have their own tainted pasts, they're not vague ideas tied to an ideology.


    No, it hasn’t. The only time they showed Genosha as a burgeoning nation, it got blown up. Utopia was never a “community,” it was a reservation and everyone on the island thought they were gonna die.
    You didn't answer whether you were empowered by the X-men before, the X-men aren't shy about how they feel about being mutants. They embrace it.
    Reservations are communities, Utopia is supposed to be a safe haven for mutants.

    What part of my post said every human wanted them extinct? Their tagline is literally to protect a world that hates and fears them. No matter how many “good” or “well-meaning” humans they rescue, they still protect people that are blatantly bigoted towards them and that’s my problem. And they aren’t isolationist, or else they wouldn’t have two-way Krakoan portals in almost every country.
    That as the implication, there were no caveats about other humans who helped mutants. That is true, but your argument was that the government itself was only run by those bigots. Governments are vastly more complex than that. The portals are for mutants, not humans. The human ambassadors weren't allowed onto Krakoa - it's only for mutants.

    Yeah.....thats my point. They’ve had human allies and that doesn’t change in the current era.
    What human allies?

    None of this is factual.
    Every word is factual.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Then why were you surprised by those actions? "Progress" is debatable, the X-men themselves are regressing on their stances with peace with humanity. Krakoa itself is an indictment of defeatism.



    He really hasn't. There is no time limit for punishing someone for murder and terrorism and no, those aren't minor reasons. They can do that without giving a free pass to actual super-villains which have body counts of small countries. Which ignore accountability when it comes to mutants who have broken the law and committed serious crimes against mutants and humans alike. This isn't about Krakoa its about mutant terrorists being accountable for their crimes. Magneto being Krakoa's face to the world all but tells humanity they don't care about killing humans. When was the last time you heard someone bring that up to him, post- Krakoa? Magneto's ideology is that humanity's day is done and mutants will dominate the planet - he's simply transferred into doing that with soft methods like buying his enemies out rather than floating the in the air and threatening to murder them if they don't do what he says. Magneto, and violet mutants like him, are individuals who have their own tainted pasts, they're not vague ideas tied to an ideology.




    You didn't answer whether you were empowered by the X-men before, the X-men aren't shy about how they feel about being mutants. They embrace it.
    Reservations are communities, Utopia is supposed to be a safe haven for mutants.



    That as the implication, there were no caveats about other humans who helped mutants. That is true, but your argument was that the government itself was only run by those bigots. Governments are vastly more complex than that. The portals are for mutants, not humans. The human ambassadors weren't allowed onto Krakoa - it's only for mutants.



    What human allies?



    Every word is factual.
    trying the same thing over and over again expecting a difrent outcome is the definition of madness, the previous attempts were not working and mutant misery was pilling up to a level that the x-men had to make the choice to focus on mutants.
    Or be okay with the next time the school explodes, students die and the goverments pass another terrible law witout a single human lifting a finger, like it was for every other year.

    Peace requires two participants, humanity has proven time and time again they are not interested, so now the x-men have the means necessary to create a fair playing field its impressive that you care more about what mutants have done to react to atrocities commited agaist them, than the creators of said atrocities.

    Also we have an entire issue of showcassing human allies in x force, but you clearly are not reading dawn of x properly
    Last edited by Ferro; 04-08-2020 at 07:19 AM.

  14. #74
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    OK. Can we start posting instances where humans were genuinely concerned over the well being of mutants again? Or have we run out?
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    OK. Can we start posting instances where humans were genuinely concerned over the well being of mutants again? Or have we run out?
    Only five exist in the world .
    The Krakoans are EEEvil!

    THEY MUST BE STOPPED!

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