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  1. #31
    Sad & Brazilian PrezValentine's Avatar
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    Remender's run had the issue of looking more like an attempto to stroke the egos at Marvel than to actually solve the divide between Avengers and X-Men. Trying to villify Cyclops and the X-Men didn't work as well as intended, same for trying to portray revolution/standing against opressive authority as something inherently bad. So they had Havok playing the "good mutant", for the sake of Cap and the Avengers passing a better image, while glossing over most of the implications in-universe of the rebirth of the X-gene, which Gillen approached way better in AvX: Consequences. It didn't feel like an effort to advance both franchises forward, if anything it felt like holding the mutant narrative back. I'm actually glad Duggan took over and most of Remender's Uncanny Avengers was largely forgotten in the third volume.
    Hunting's no fun when your prey doesn't move.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    Scotland Yard didn't seem to mind Nightcrawler, Shadowcat and Pheonix and they were more curious than anything else... Alistaire Stewart became a friend, though that may have been because Captain Britain was on the team for the others. There were also those pro-mutant signs in Paris during Magneto's trial.
    It varies from writer to writer and country to country as well...Excalibur seemed to be pretty well regarded in the UK (in universe) and Canada seems to view mutants (as well as super humans in general) as a resource for Dept H and the Flight Program. And Japan seems to not have a problem with Sunfire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    The problem is that it is one thing to see the nominal support of people demonstrating, like in those scenes or in Bendis Uncanny. Another thing is that we've never seen something like "Oh, SHIELD has stopped those Purifers" or "The Avengers have dismantled that Sentinel factory."
    That would have been cool to see in a Secret Avengers storyline.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Well, in reference to what I said with the “full-hearted spirit,” that’s pretty much what I was referring to, in that half a spirit is with Cap helping out the mutants, but the other half that’s missing? Well, those panels you listed would probably best symbolize that empty half of the spirit, or perhaps as some others would put it, “half-hearted.” So then, it would be quite nice and surely worthwhile to see an attempt that wasn’t quite so half-hearted. If that’s how they “built the world,” as you put it, then perhaps some redecorating of the world could reasonably be in order. After all, Hickman’s run has shown quite a bit of redecoration, so if he could accomplish that, then I suppose that could allude to the potential other full-hearted writers could accomplish.
    Hickman's authority is an exception on any title, few writers are given the freedom he has and he's got his own stories to tell about mutant kind when editorial historically is ok being neutral or ignoring the mutant context in their own titles since they don't want that overriding their own themes. This the bad side of not having a truly unified universe the X-men are both in the Marvel universe and outside it simultaneously and vice versa. But I have noticed the lack of decent humans assisting the X-men in the X-line over the years. Moria did fill this void but she's out for obvious reasons with Hickman.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrezValentine View Post
    To be fair, the F4 and Avengers did try to help, but only when things got so dire, they couldn't just sit on their asses (in this case, when the red force field came up). So, Fraction actually got it right.
    "Hey, buddy, you can go stop that imminent pogrom if you want, we give you permission, we stay here" does not seem like an answer that leaves the Avengers very well. . They are about to say "Remember to bring beer when you return".

    Like, they're making it clear that that's not their problem, it's just a problem for Logan.
    Last edited by Glio; 04-07-2020 at 03:57 AM.

  5. #35
    Amazing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Well we do know that SHIELD was stockpiling anti-mutant weapons, and so was the O.N.E. and Tony Stark contributed to O.N.E. Sentinel Technology to of course keep the mutants properly contained at the mansion and make sure they weren't running around loose! For their own good of course, it's always for their own good! Apartheid policies implemented in the comics is always couched in the phrase of "their own good" or the "common good". This form of institutionalized racism spread to almost the entire world, particularly when the UN was sponsoring forcibly curing mutants against their will and rounding up mutants that resisted being cured. Hence we have the current status quo, the mutant minority fled the world wide oppression and genocide and formed an independent nation where they can defend themselves, and negotiate with the countries of the world by using world economics as a negotiating tactic to get peace treaties in as many countries as possible.
    ^This. Honestly if the mutants creating Krakoa was framed around the fact that the current nations that they live in have inherently oppressive policies then that would shut down a lot of claims that the X-Men are suddenly all power hungry supremacists.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    ^This. Honestly if the mutants creating Krakoa was framed around the fact that the current nations that they live in have inherently oppressive policies then that would shut down a lot of claims that the X-Men are suddenly all power hungry supremacists.
    I think people keep presenting that counter argument "what about the good humans?"

    The good humans don't have the power to stop the oppression and genocide of mutants. In fact most of the good humans are justifiably scared because the forces of racism and hate have so much power over the governments and corporations world wide. There is profit to be made in hating mutants, building Sentinels and other anti-mutant weaponry is profitable. Thus corporate interests donate to the politicians who will stir up the anti-mutant hatred, because they can profit off the hate. Plus most powerful corporate barons can't stand the idea of mutants born with exceptional powers that may be able to exceed them, or expose their corrupt endeavours through telepaths and precogs.

    It's actually quite logical that the governments would be infested with anti-mutant sentiment, because they are scared of having their power taken away. What if an inspiring telepathic mutant like Jean Grey became politically powerful enough to be elected to Congress. She could read the minds of her opponents and expose their corruptions and lies. Going to a meeting with Emma Frost, it's almost impossible to trick her into signing a bad faith agreement, because she will always know if you are lying. All of the people who thrive on corruption and lies, politicians and businessmen, they all will hate mutants because of the potential that mutants will expose them for the evil disgusting excuses for humanity that they are.

    This is why the mutants had to flee, because the power brokers of the world were actively working toward their genocide. The only hope for mutant kind was to flee from the oppressors and forces of genocide and establish a safe haven for their children and families. Some place that all the mutants of the entire world can flee to. With portals going off world for those mutants who are just tired of the fighting and prefer to live off planet where they don't have to fear the evil humans anymore.

    In X-Men Black: Magneto the US government was already building internment camps to hold, experiment on, and kill mutants. The used the O.N.E. to round up every child who showed any sign of the having the X-Gene. Magneto stepped in and freed them from the internment camps and decided to reform the Brotherhood because of the actions of the US government in actively trying to purge mutants!
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I think people keep presenting that counter argument "what about the good humans?"

    The good humans don't have the power to stop the oppression and genocide of mutants. In fact most of the good humans are justifiably scared because the forces of racism and hate have so much power over the governments and corporations world wide. There is profit to be made in hating mutants, building Sentinels and other anti-mutant weaponry is profitable. Thus corporate interests donate to the politicians who will stir up the anti-mutant hatred, because they can profit off the hate. Plus most powerful corporate barons can't stand the idea of mutants born with exceptional powers that may be able to exceed them, or expose their corrupt endeavours through telepaths and precogs.

    It's actually quite logical that the governments would be infested with anti-mutant sentiment, because they are scared of having their power taken away. What if an inspiring telepathic mutant like Jean Grey became politically powerful enough to be elected to Congress. She could read the minds of her opponents and expose their corruptions and lies. Going to a meeting with Emma Frost, it's almost impossible to trick her into signing a bad faith agreement, because she will always know if you are lying. All of the people who thrive on corruption and lies, politicians and businessmen, they all will hate mutants because of the potential that mutants will expose them for the evil disgusting excuses for humanity that they are.

    This is why the mutants had to flee, because the power brokers of the world were actively working toward their genocide. The only hope for mutant kind was to flee from the oppressors and forces of genocide and establish a safe haven for their children and families. Some place that all the mutants of the entire world can flee to. With portals going off world for those mutants who are just tired of the fighting and prefer to live off planet where they don't have to fear the evil humans anymore.

    In X-Men Black: Magneto the US government was already building internment camps to hold, experiment on, and kill mutants. The used the O.N.E. to round up every child who showed any sign of the having the X-Gene. Magneto stepped in and freed them from the internment camps and decided to reform the Brotherhood because of the actions of the US government in actively trying to purge mutants!
    I think the general previously listed would be a good example of a human in power who shows humanity towards the mutants, and I think that more writers should write human characters such as himself and that them actively doing more to help them would be nice as well.

  8. #38
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    ^This. Honestly if the mutants creating Krakoa was framed around the fact that the current nations that they live in have inherently oppressive policies then that would shut down a lot of claims that the X-Men are suddenly all power hungry supremacists.
    Yup Yup.
    Yup Yup.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  9. #39
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    "Hey, buddy, you can go stop that imminent pogrom if you want, we give you permission, we stay here" does not seem like an answer that leaves the Avengers very well. . They are about to say "Remember to bring beer when you return".

    Like, they're making it clear that that's not their problem, it's just a problem for Logan.
    You also seem to be ignoring the context of that moment as well given that, at the time that scene took place, the Avengers were wanted fugitives from HAMMER both for defying the SRA during Civil War and then Osborn during that time. They were functioning underground and didn’t have the freedom to go everywhere they normally could and out of them Logan was the only one who could come and go due to Utopia.

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Maestro 216's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Because it is so much easier to just put mutants in the equivalent of Nazi Germany.
    Except that is so over the top no one takes their struggle seriously. Shit actually Jewish people have more rights than Magneto.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    You also seem to be ignoring the context of that moment as well given that, at the time that scene took place, the Avengers were wanted fugitives from HAMMER both for defying the SRA during Civil War and then Osborn during that time. They were functioning underground and didn’t have the freedom to go everywhere they normally could and out of them Logan was the only one who could come and go due to Utopia.
    There was not Utopía yet

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro 216 View Post
    Except that is so over the top no one takes their struggle seriously. Shit actually Jewish people have more rights than Magneto.
    You and Chris0013 hit the nail right on the head, in that writers seem to perceive the easier route in making the Marvel universe hundreds of times worse for mutants than the societies of Nazi Germany and George Orwell’s 1984, as if mutants are better off committing suicide than living on Earth with the potential for any future writer to write in a threat that destroys even Krakoa and all its mutants, simply because they’re big and us readers are tiny. Once again, so as to have more reasonably serious nuance, because even the real world the Marvel universe apparently reflects has its nuances, that writers should consider writing in more characters with attitudes that resemble more like Martin Luther King’s progressive results in talking with powerful leaders and less like Martin Luther’s religious, apocalyptic talk. If the Marvel universe really is meant to reflect the real world, then it has to be carefully considered on how to make it a noticeable mix of good and bad instead of mostly bad.

  13. #43
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Other than the occassional sentinel story here and there, marvel seemed to be doing alright right up until shortly after House of M. After that it seemed like things shifted. There was a lot less casual racism, fear, and hatred, and lot more deathsquads hunting mutants to extinction story.

    Another problem that seemed to come from that time was suddenly every story was about EVERY MUTANT, and every mutant had to pick this side, that side, the otherside, or whatever. Nothing was small scale anymore.

    I miss the smaller scale issues. They felt more real than the death squads and mutant nations that have sprung up since.

  14. #44
    Fantastic Member Maestro 216's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Other than the occassional sentinel story here and there, marvel seemed to be doing alright right up until shortly after House of M. After that it seemed like things shifted. There was a lot less casual racism, fear, and hatred, and lot more deathsquads hunting mutants to extinction story.

    Another problem that seemed to come from that time was suddenly every story was about EVERY MUTANT, and every mutant had to pick this side, that side, the otherside, or whatever. Nothing was small scale anymore.

    I miss the smaller scale issues. They felt more real than the death squads and mutant nations that have sprung up since.
    Exactly this. The small time stories with mutants not associated with the X Men holds more weight because it isn't just people fight death robots. It can show you the layers of racism and civil right issues mutants deal with but not so extreme or explosive.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Other than the occassional sentinel story here and there, marvel seemed to be doing alright right up until shortly after House of M. After that it seemed like things shifted. There was a lot less casual racism, fear, and hatred, and lot more deathsquads hunting mutants to extinction story.

    Another problem that seemed to come from that time was suddenly every story was about EVERY MUTANT, and every mutant had to pick this side, that side, the otherside, or whatever. Nothing was small scale anymore.

    I miss the smaller scale issues. They felt more real than the death squads and mutant nations that have sprung up since.
    The point about smaller scale-issues hit a nail on the head as well. Before Days of Future Past, any fear towards the mutants (whether irrationally fueled by fears of slavery and what not) seemed to have been more commonly shown with human civilians than those in positions of power. It seemed that it wasn’t until Days of Future Past was published that you saw a shift in just about every government, church, or others in power being aggressively against the mutants more, which I think effectively resulted in any positivity, reasonable positivity, being pushed to the side and made out to be unimportant.

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