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  1. #76
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Lurk View Post
    Can't you just reduce the hatemongering towards the stuff that went wrong instead of ... everything and then some?
    As has been said, it's not as if Christ imagery in Superman is bad in general. Just that it was overwrought here, and there wasn't much balance with anything else.

  2. #77
    Incredible Member The_Lurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I'm just sick of the whole "Superman but evil" stories. Or stories where he kills people. We get it, you don't know what else to do with him. They made a video game where DC heroes fight each other and they needed an excuse for why they were fighting each other. That's fine. It doesn't need it's own movie. I mean, there are, what, three video games now of DC heroes fighting each other? This. DC Online. and Infinite Crisis. It's not a particularly original idea. Taylor got stuck giving motivations to characters whose personalities he didn't set up to begin with. He was working backward from someone else's script. DC Online's been around for over a decade now so it's not like we needed another fighting game. Let the franchise die already.
    DCU Online is not heroes vs. heroes. Player choose a mentor (one of three) of either hero or villain faction and do either hero stuff with the occasional supervillain confronting them or villain stuff with the occasional hero confronting them. Outside the legends PvP/PvE meta play mode they don't even play the iconic character; you're supposed to create your own DCU character. The Superman there is as Superman as it gets and one of the mentors for hero characters (WW and Bats being the others; Joker, Luthor and Circe being the villain mentors).

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    As has been said, it's not as if Christ imagery in Superman is bad in general. Just that it was overwrought here, and there wasn't much balance with anything else.
    The Nuclear Man origin story from Superman 4 replacing the Doomsday origin kind of overshadowed it for me :P
    Last edited by The_Lurk; 04-09-2020 at 01:01 PM.

  3. #78
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    that's true, Superman has been linked with Jesus since the Donner movie. At least that movie also had a great balance of fun and romance.

    Even Smallville and Superman Returns had Jesus allegories. I don't mind it, I kind of like it, but it should just be on the surface and in small amounts.
    It's not a Jesus Allegory, it's a Savoir Allegory. As an Atheist I can Tell you the guys who came up with Jesus were just writing to the same Trope as all the other Savoir Deities that came before him. Superman was created by two Jewish Guys. Jesus was Jewish and was Basically a Alternative Remix of Moses, Superman is just the Pop Rock Remix. Hell they even say in the Movie that maybe he's not any of those things he's just a guy trying to do the RIGHT thing. There's nothing Divine about using what you got to help as many people as you can, Superman has just got a lot more then most but then so does Batman and Mike Bloomberg. Funny how with all the Billionaires we have in the world theirs no Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark equivalents. We expect a Kid from the Stars to immediately dedicate his life to saving us yet expect nothing from the people who actually have the power to do so. Which ties into my other armament.

  4. #79
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    It's not a Jesus Allegory, it's a Savoir Allegory. As an Atheist I can Tell you the guys who came up with Jesus were just writing to the same Trope as all the other Savoir Deities that came before him. Superman was created by two Jewish Guys. Jesus was Jewish and was Basically a Alternative Remix of Moses, Superman is just the Pop Rock Remix. Hell they even say in the Movie that maybe he's not any of those things he's just a guy trying to do the RIGHT thing. There's nothing Divine about using what you got to help as many people as you can, Superman has just got a lot more then most but then so does Batman and Mike Bloomberg. Funny how with all the Billionaires we have in the world theirs no Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark equivalents. We expect a Kid from the Stars to immediately dedicate his life to saving us yet expect nothing from the people who actually have the power to do so. Which ties into my other armament.
    In snyder movie it says otherwise that he isn't saviour figure(he is a guy doing right thing. Like in the original comics) . Why? Because he wanted to subvert the messiah nonsense that was perpetuated before. Donner himself was basically paralleling it and cemented it. Snyder wanted it gone. So, he used it, to tear it down. It's like fighting fire with fire. Look at his funeral, the crowd thinks of him as the saviour figure. While, his actual funeral happens relatively unknown, away from all the circus.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-13-2020 at 06:35 AM.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Sometimes, subversion like that falls flat on its face because even though you as a director are trying to say, "See, he's not Jesus," your audience just ends up seeing and thinking Jesus, and that's not the audience's fault. That's sort of like the old joke "Don't think about polar bears."

    For what it's worth, I don't think Snyder's goal was subversion, but that's not something I can prove or disprove, so moving on...

  6. #81
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Sometimes, subversion like that falls flat on its face because even though you as a director are trying to say, "See, he's not Jesus," your audience just ends up seeing and thinking Jesus, and that's not the audience's fault. That's sort of like the old joke "Don't think about polar bears."

    For what it's worth, I don't think Snyder's goal was subversion, but that's not something I can prove or disprove, so moving on...
    Well, you could also say snyder meant that clark is parallel to jesus.But, with that would mean jesus himself wasn't a saviour figure people made him out to be. He was Just a guy from Nazareth trying to do the right thing.why? Snyder basically hits it home that clark is just an introverted, shy and unsure guy who is in over his head.i have seen real "saviour" nonsense in mainstream comics with Clark's speeches and setting example/being moral authority for people business. Snyder did no such thing. His clark was just a guy. You might not like him or notice him. But, maybe for the first time the clumsy clark kent act was the real superman. The real superman wasn't confident, extroverted dude.He was as clumsy as the rest of us.Faora even taunts him for the same. "you are weak kal. Unsure of yourself".As well, many things like that line in about him being just a guy, His funeral, him hating being treated like deity or god by the day of the dead people... Etc. Infact, this is most human superman has ever been in my opinion.I am not talking about the alien heritage either. Its the flaws.sure,snyder needed to expand superman more in both movies. But, the character wasn't that god awful hollow superman from jl who basically reminded me of two face, more than superman.

    One of the key struggles of clark in these movies is him being made into saviour figure because people can't handle superman exists. Kid clark saves a bus and lana's mother called it providence. People either hated him as false god or revered him as the second coming. While, clark didn't want either. Religious loons are one of the reasons Clark's secret will be hard to handle for the world. Can you imagine islamist or fanatic christian or whatever comes to know superman exists?there will be hell to pay. Not mention these guys basically even have armies now.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-13-2020 at 08:32 AM.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    It's not a Jesus Allegory, it's a Savoir Allegory. As an Atheist I can Tell you the guys who came up with Jesus were just writing to the same Trope as all the other Savoir Deities that came before him. Superman was created by two Jewish Guys. Jesus was Jewish and was Basically a Alternative Remix of Moses, Superman is just the Pop Rock Remix. Hell they even say in the Movie that maybe he's not any of those things he's just a guy trying to do the RIGHT thing. There's nothing Divine about using what you got to help as many people as you can, Superman has just got a lot more then most but then so does Batman and Mike Bloomberg. Funny how with all the Billionaires we have in the world theirs no Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark equivalents. We expect a Kid from the Stars to immediately dedicate his life to saving us yet expect nothing from the people who actually have the power to do so. Which ties into my other armament.
    well I have my own interpretation and you have yours. I've also seen a lot of Superman/Jesus comparisons that Christians make, so it's not just me (and I have links to probe it). Of course nobody is saying that Superman is literally Jesus.. but the movies especially like to compare them. My guess is filmmakers think it's artistic or deep.



    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Sometimes, subversion like that falls flat on its face because even though you as a director are trying to say, "See, he's not Jesus," your audience just ends up seeing and thinking Jesus, and that's not the audience's fault. That's sort of like the old joke "Don't think about polar bears."

    For what it's worth, I don't think Snyder's goal was subversion, but that's not something I can prove or disprove, so moving on...
    Exactly lol. I mean, Jor-El sents his only son to Earth to show us the way.. Superman falls to Earth in the cross pose in Returns. Superman/Clark has to take a leap of faith.. And his father Jor-El tells him he can save us all while he has his arms open like a cross in Man of Steel... and there is more if you really want to look.

    Last edited by stargazer01; 04-13-2020 at 11:43 AM.

  8. #83
    Ultimate Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    And this thread reminds me i was gonna get the injustice omnibus.

    why not, i liked Superman's brutal bloody actions in Injustice. As long as it's an elsewold, no problem.
    Yeah this is pretty much how I feel. I'm not sure about live action but I'd take an animated series/movie. Besides it's not as if in the series he was immediately evil I remember the comic took its time setting it up, plus it showed that he was a good superman before the turn. Also I did like what they did with Conner and Kara.

    Plus we've had evil alternate batmen before, that is what the entire Metal event was. At least Injustice superman isn't canon to the main universe like Batman who laughs.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
    Words to live by.

  9. #84
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Exactly lol. I mean, Jor-El sents his only son to Earth to show us the way.. Superman falls to Earth in the cross pose in Returns. Superman/Clark has to take a leap of faith.. And his father Jor-El tells him he can save us all while he has his arms open like a cross in Man of Steel... and there is more if you really want to look.

    Except, what happened to the leap of faith clark took? It fell flat on its face. His debut was forever connected to the biggest disaster. Not, to mention he became controversial figure. Even "you can save them all" didn't exactly come to fruition. Clark couldn't save a chunk of metropolis and his own hands was bloodied in the process. Donner did the exact opposite he played in to the allegory. Clark swished his hands(spun around the earth) "lo and behold" everyone is saved. I have to say, i hate the saviour nonsense. There are tons of characters based on the same archetype superman is, but they aren't all dubbed "the one"

    You can see the imagery. but, you can't get past it. Maybe, that's one of the problems with superman. He will forever be stuck as either the jesus or devil figure. The bvs even says so. People cannot see or treat superman as "only human".
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-14-2020 at 12:02 AM.

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