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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Claremont wanted Jean to live. It was the editor that wanted her dead.

    Claremont was furious because of maddie-Scott
    The editor originally wanted her dead, but Claremont came around to it because it made for a much better ending that he could build off of. That story is nothing without that ending.

    He didn't want her back after that. At least not the way it played out. His original intentions for Maddie were always weird/bad, but the X-Factor stuff is awful and it's hard to blame him considering how disruptive her resurrection was to his narrative.

  2. #47
    Spectacular Member Redshipper's Avatar
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    With Scott having nothing to do at all in the resurrection.

  3. #48
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redshipper View Post
    With Scott having nothing to do at all in the resurrection.
    But that's the only part Rosenberg cared about.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  4. #49
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The editor originally wanted her dead, but Claremont came around to it because it made for a much better ending that he could build off of. That story is nothing

    He didn't want her back after that. At least not the way it played out. His original intentions for Maddie were always weird/bad, but the X-Factor stuff is awful and it's hard to blame him considering how disruptive her resurrection was to his narrative.
    Ftfy.

    The Dark Phoenix Saga, for as iconic of a story as it genuinely is, ain't shit. It exists as it is entirely because John Byrne is an unrepentant sexist (who also did similar things to Sue Storm and Wanda Maximoff without killing THEM off) who couldn't handle the idea behind a female character who was on par with or stronger than Marvel's apparent strongest character at the time, Thor. And the story really only holds up in a vacuum.

    It's iconic but that's all that it is. The idea of Jean killing herself on the moon paired with the fact that characters like Thor, Silver Surfer, and other cosmic level heroes existed (who were male) takes away any and all impact because it just makes it seem like a woman can't have or control that amount of power.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  5. #50
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The editor originally wanted her dead, but Claremont came around to it because it made for a much better ending that he could build off of. That story is nothing without that ending.

    He didn't want her back after that. At least not the way it played out. His original intentions for Maddie were always weird/bad, but the X-Factor stuff is awful and it's hard to blame him considering how disruptive her resurrection was to his narrative.
    Well I don't blam ehim, I blame the editor.

    I think a much better end would be Jean Exile herself, death became a gimmick that screw over the character

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    When Claremont learned that Jean was returning, he tried to convince them to use someone else (For X-Factor's line-up) and not bring Jean back. He wanted them to use Sara Grey instead. He might not have wanted her to die to begin with, but he didn't want her coming back, and attempted to try to change Marvel's plans of having her return.
    Last edited by Soulsword323; 04-07-2020 at 06:28 PM.

  7. #52
    Boo! From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Sorry...meant wife and son...Jean shows up alive and all of a sudden Scott is more than happy to abandon Maddie and Nathan.
    He wasn't really happy. He was conflicted. Him and Jean didn't automatically become a couple again. That said, Maddy didn't deserve to become some evil, creepy B---! I don't mean the B word as a sexist remark but that's how Marvel wants you to see her. They just saw her as so bad they didn't mind adding (sorta) incest with AoA Nate.

    All this talk of original deaths I think of Thunderbird I. Thunderbird II (James) basically took his place.

    Anyway, I don't know how I would have done Jeans resurrection but the series that was devoted to it was awful despite the previews looking like it would be something special. It led into Red, though, which I like.
    Last edited by From The Shadows; 04-07-2020 at 06:53 PM.

  8. #53
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    I've had this idea about a team of eXiles showing up in the 616 with a Phoenix Egg, and then almost immediately after, another group of eXiles appear in the 616 with -- you guessed it: a Phoenix Egg! -- so the 616 X-Men not only have to figure out which of these dimensional refugees to trust, but they also have two Phoenix Eggs. And eventually they'd hatch.

    -Pav, who had a fun list of eXiles...
    Last edited by Pav; 04-07-2020 at 07:43 PM.
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  9. #54
    Fantastic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Could you elaborate on how you would have Jean take Moira's place?
    Instead of Moira and her 10 or 11 lives. I just would have given Jean as the Phoenix the power of reincarnation. So the different timelines would be either Jean's lives or it would be visions and observations from other Phoenix host in the White hot room. The idea of reincarnation along with the Phoenix burning away what doesnt work would tie together. So instead of Moira being the one who's death resets everything, Jean would be the one that story is based on

  10. #55
    Fantastic Member
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    I like the idea some had about AVX being Jean's resurrection in some way. Finally having the Phoenix collect all its pieces and there being a galactic war similar to War of Kings seems interesting.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    He wasn't really happy. He was conflicted. Him and Jean didn't automatically become a couple again. That said, Maddy didn't deserve to become some evil, creepy B---! I don't mean the B word as a sexist remark but that's how Marvel wants you to see her. They just saw her as so bad they didn't mind adding (sorta) incest with AoA Nate.
    I get that he did not just start hooking up with Jean...but he should have been man enough to go back to his wife and kid and figure it all out...even if it ends in divorce because he realizes he was not really in love with her.

    And don't get me started on Warren who was dating Candy Southern at the time...and he is thinking that if Scott tells Jean he is married then he will have a shot at Jean.

  12. #57
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Ftfy.

    The Dark Phoenix Saga, for as iconic of a story as it genuinely is, ain't shit. It exists as it is entirely because John Byrne is an unrepentant sexist (who also did similar things to Sue Storm and Wanda Maximoff without killing THEM off) who couldn't handle the idea behind a female character who was on par with or stronger than Marvel's apparent strongest character at the time, Thor. And the story really only holds up in a vacuum.

    It's iconic but that's all that it is. The idea of Jean killing herself on the moon paired with the fact that characters like Thor, Silver Surfer, and other cosmic level heroes existed (who were male) takes away any and all impact because it just makes it seem like a woman can't have or control that amount of power.
    Well said!
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  13. #58
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    Jean getting the Phoenix would have been a mistake.
    The Phoenix always has to have a host, so, it searches for a worthy host, generally someone with great psychic powers, with a mind so powerful that it allows him/her to be Phoenix host without going insane.
    Jean's display of Psychic power when she piloted the airship back into earth tricked the Phoenix into thinking it had find its ideal host, but it would have been a display of hysterical strength caused by Jean's love for Scott, whose life was at risk.


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    Hysterical strength is a display of extreme strength by humans, beyond what is believed to be normal, usually occurring when people are in life-and-death situations. Common anecdotal examples include parents lifting vehicles to rescue their children. The extra strength is commonly attributed to increased adrenaline production, though supporting evidence is scarce, and inconclusive when available; research into the phenomenon is difficult, though it is thought that it is theoretically possible.[1]

    Extreme strength may occur during excited delirium.[2][3]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterical_strength

    This would end with a fight in which with some device they manage to separate the Phoenix from Jean, and when the Phoenix realizes what happens, he leaves Jean to search for another host, while also resurrecting the planet of Lettuce people and all its inhabitants.

  14. #59
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I get that he did not just start hooking up with Jean...but he should have been man enough to go back to his wife and kid and figure it all out...even if it ends in divorce because he realizes he was not really in love with her.

    And don't get me started on Warren who was dating Candy Southern at the time...and he is thinking that if Scott tells Jean he is married then he will have a shot at Jean.
    No one was answering the phone in Alaska as early as issue 2. Now that was later revealed (or retconned) into it being that the place was already wrecked, but it wasn't as if nothing at all was being attempted on that front. This isn't to absolve Scott, who handled things poorly (to say the least), but the notion that he left someone who had done nothing wrong (Maddie comes across as emotionally abusive in X-Factor 1 - seriously, it reads as if every second statement she says to Scott is about how crappy he is in one way or another) to go hook up with his previous crush (he resists Jean's advances even if he screws up royally by not telling her why) without a second thought about Maddie (again, he's trying to call in issue 2) is pure headcanon.

    But as far as how would I have told it differently.....first things first, I would have had Jean's return told in an X-Men comic and NOT the Fantastic Four.

    And if we are talking about Jean's more recent return - I'd have spent much more time dealing with Jean than with everyone else reacting to the situation. The more recent story reads like the movie attempts at the Dark Phoenix Saga - they turn Jean into a secondary character in her own story.
    Last edited by Gray Lensman; 04-07-2020 at 10:34 PM.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    No one was answering the phone in Alaska as early as issue 2. Now that was later revealed (or retconned) into it being that the place was already wrecked, but it wasn't as if nothing at all was being attempted on that front. This isn't to absolve Scott, who handled things poorly (to say the least), but the notion that he left someone who had done nothing wrong (Maddie comes across as emotionally abusive in X-Factor 1 - seriously, it reads as if every second statement she says to Scott is about how crappy he is in one way or another) to go hook up with his previous crush (he resists Jean's advances even if he screws up royally by not telling her why) without a second thought about Maddie (again, he's trying to call in issue 2) is pure headcanon.

    But as far as how would I have told it differently.....first things first, I would have had Jean's return told in an X-Men comic and NOT the Fantastic Four.

    And if we are talking about Jean's more recent return - I'd have spent much more time dealing with Jean than with everyone else reacting to the situation. The more recent story reads like the movie attempts at the Dark Phoenix Saga - they turn Jean into a secondary character in her own story.
    2nd bolded comment 1st...I get you are not trying to absolve him....but back to 1st bolded...he should have gotten on a plane and headed back and found his wife and son.

    Instead it was 'well..she isn't answering...guess she doesn't want to see me...and wants to keep me from my son...but that is OK because I am with my oldest friends and ex-GF so I will just ignore my problems because I am a 'hero' and have more important things to deal with'

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