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  1. #31
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    These all sound like great ideas and would provide the closure to Jean’s time as the White Phoenix of the Crown, that Phoenix Resurrection did not provide.

    Marvel should publish a mini series that gaps the time between Jean’s death and resurrection. It would explore the mythology of the white hot room, the role of the Phoenix hosts, and ‘dance between the drops of continuity’ to show Jean’s Phoenix work after Her death in HCT, through AvX, and Secret Wars. The destruction of the old 616 universe and the rebirth of the new Marvel Prime universe could be the catalyst that resurrected adult Jean Grey.
    This would never happen, but it would be so fun. Show how Jean and the Phoenix reacted to the Decimation by creating Hope, show Jean saving Emma from Madelyne and Logan from demons (as opposed to those being hallucinations), show her lending the Phoenix to Hope in AvX after appearing on the moon (in dust form) and appearing to Scott during the final battle, and everything else. It'd be super fun.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  2. #32
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    I wouldn't have, she works better as a symbol

  3. #33
    Spectacular Member otipep_90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    This would never happen, but it would be so fun. Show how Jean and the Phoenix reacted to the Decimation by creating Hope, show Jean saving Emma from Madelyne and Logan from demons (as opposed to those being hallucinations), show her lending the Phoenix to Hope in AvX after appearing on the moon (in dust form) and appearing to Scott during the final battle, and everything else. It'd be super fun.
    Yes exactly. While at the same time streamlining and make the Phoenix mythos more cohesive. These could have even been backup stories in X-Men: Red like Claremont did with X-Men Classic or similar to Mark Waid’s History of the Marvel Universe mini, with encyclopedic entries in the back of the main story with all the references.

  4. #34
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    I wouldn't have, she works better as a symbol
    Same, much like Gwen Stacy's iconic death in Spider-Man, it was a major turning point creatively for the title and the lives of the characters who now had to deal with it. And while Jean wasn't the FIRST character to die on panel and be resurrected later on, (Alfred in Batman for example) she is one of the most prolific, (Superman, being the biggest) helping to give rise to A LOT of really bad stories of heroes dying for about a year and coming back with a new issue 1.
    "The White Queen welcomes you, TO DIE!"

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    I would have done a destiny fulfilled story (think Charmed after they vanquished the Source). I would have had Jean do one last major "phoenix work" assignment/mission/whatever and then part amicably with the Phoenix because her work (for now) would have been complete. Jean would have got her desire to be human again and return to the life she had missed.

    The parts I did like about PR - it didn't retcon Jean as Phoenix in Morrison's run or Endsong by stating she was replaced and it "wasn't her". Her latest Phoenix moments remained intact. Another retcon would have been too much. I also agree with the parts where Jean wanted to be human again. That is relatable and understandable.

    What I hated the most was making Jean and Phoenix once a beautiful, quasi spiritual relationship into a toxic relationship full of lies, manipulation, and abuse. I do not know how Matt R or the editors could view Claremont's version of the Jean/Phoenix merger/relationship and Morrison's version of Jean and Phoenix and come up with this. The Phoenix should burn through lies and deception. Though I concede Phoenix Endsong, Warsong, and the Excalibur Phoenix version would make way for Rosenberg's interpretation. I don't think Matt R knew what to do with concepts like the White Hot Room either.

    Matt R saw the Phoenix as something that took away from Jean and overshadowed her but I would argue the exact opposite. When you think of Phoenix you mainly think of Jean Grey and her big stories (Phoenix Sage, Dark Phoenix Saga, Morrison run).

    The current view is that the Phoenix is too powerful and dangerous for any one person to contain. Fine. Again, I understand the argument for separating Jean from that type of power it was just how it was done that I don't like.

    Dennis Hopeless handled Jean better in the Jean Grey solo where ghost Jean seemed to understand the Phoenix (shown in the Dr Strange issue) and where the Phoenix described Jean as the perfect vessel and recalled that Jean embraced it fully. Hopeless I felt got it where Rosenberg struggled with his story (PR started ok but most of it was filler and then led to a bad ending).

    Another thing that bothers me is that Jean was so willing to give up the Phoenix that she let Cyclops and her family remain dead (I realize the family was an illusion in the story and Cyclops was not). I think Jean would move heaven and earth for Scott and her family, but that is just my opinion. Matt R wanted to do a break up story and return Jean to the mid-80's to mid 90's version of the character (while at the same time acting like he did something new which I find super annoying).

  6. #36
    Spectacular Member otipep_90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    Same, much like Gwen Stacy's iconic death in Spider-Man, it was a major turning point creatively for the title and the lives of the characters who now had to deal with it. And while Jean wasn't the FIRST character to die on panel and be resurrected later on, (Alfred in Batman for example) she is one of the most prolific, (Superman, being the biggest) helping to give rise to A LOT of really bad stories of heroes dying for about a year and coming back with a new issue 1.
    Jean’s death wasn’t the first major death in X-Men. Both Professor X and Magneto had already died and been resurrected after being dead long term in the book.

    Leading female character were frequently fridged in those days. If anything, the Dark Phoenix Saga set a precedent for superheroines to fall to the dark side and in the collateral become victims of abuse.
    Last edited by otipep_90; 04-07-2020 at 09:56 AM.

  7. #37
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERON View Post
    If we're talking about the original resurrection from the '80s, I would have revealed that after dying on the moon, Jean was reincarnated sans powers and memories as Madelyne Pryor. I think that would have been so much simpler than what we ended up getting instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by GodfatherIV View Post
    Maybe at the most reincarnated her ... as Hope
    Maddie was the perfect way to bring back Jean. Having Maddie be someone who happened to look just like Jean and who happened to meat Scott was ridiculous, and the X-Men should have suspected treachery from the beginning. At least Lilandra did.
    An epic with Maddie remembering being Jean and Phoenix but cured of the Dark Phoenix then using her powers to save the universe again a la M'Kraan Crystal would have been perfect and redemptive for Jean and the Phoenix after the Broccoli People genocide.

    As for the more modern resurrection, see the basic road map above... Hope should have just been Phoenixed up into Jean as was obviously intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  8. #38
    Incredible Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    The current view is that the Phoenix is too powerful and dangerous for any one person to contain. Fine. Again, I understand the argument for separating Jean from that type of power it was just how it was done that I don't like.
    I agree. Turning the Phoenix into a "narcissist stalker in an obsessed toxic relation" was dumb asf. And Jean saying that she doesn't understand the purpose of the Phoenix... I rolled eye eyes tweed. I couldn't believe someone could write something that wrong. That was beyond stupid. Hey Marvel Girl, with the Phoenix you saved the universe once, saved the earth and the X-Men many times, and you even changed the future for a better one. And yet, Rosenberg's Jean says she doesn't understand the purpose of the Phoenix? Yeah, no wonder we had this Amazing Rosenberg's Uncanny X-Men run. He really gets the franchise and its characters, doesn't he?

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I wouldn't...I would have respected Byrne's decision and kept her dead after committing suicide on the moon to stop the Phoenix. X-Factor could have been done with Rachel Summers in her place and Scott not abandoning his wife and daughter like a complete scumbag.
    It was Shooter not Claremont as CC already had Madelyne as the "not quite Jean" wife and Rachel as Jean's legacy character, and Scott didn't abandon Rachel as he didn't even know she was his alt. daughter. It was Nate, but potatoe patatoe. I don't disagree that Jean shouldn't have been resurrected initially because it unraveled a lot of the things Calremont was doing and then caused issues (Jean vs madelyne, the demonization of Madelyne, the start of the 'Jean and Rachel can't exist in the same space' bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    The Phoenix would gather all of its pieces, by bringing everyone who had ever been touched by it. There’d be a cosmic scale war, with all of the galactic empires striving to keep the Phoenix from returning. Badly damaging the Phoenix Force, the only way Jean can return is if one of the Phoenix’s avatars make a sacrifice. Rachel decides to be the one, because she loves and misses her mom. So touched by Rachel’s selfless sacrifice, the Phoenix returns Jean, as well as a de-aged Rachel, of about 16, holding, and being held by Jean, bathed in cosmic fire.
    I like this idea a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Editorial's original concept for Jean coming back before Rosenberg got his hands on Phoenix Resurrection was not an inherently bad one. A large-scale event involving the Phoenix Force on a cosmic scale choosing Jean Grey as it's host and involving her in interstellar politics involving the Shi'Ar Imperium, the X-men, and even the greater Marvel universe as a whole would have been a wonderful idea. Have Jean choose not to host the Phoenix Force at the end, after all the epic battles and all of the fighting is said and done, or have the Phoenix somehow unable to be sustained within a host or no longer want to. That way X-Men Red can continue to happen as it was and allow Jean to embrace her natural abilities on their own and grow into a leader of mutantkind in her on right.
    Given the way that the greater MU has co-opted the Phoenix for their stories outside of the X-Office I think this would have made perfect sense. It also could have provided some of those Jean + "insert imp. character" moments that were removed/ignored during and after Resurrection. I'm glad we got the Jean and Rachel, but where was the Jean and Storm, or Jean and Lorna, or others instead of Jean and Kurt or Jean and Laura.

    My thought of how she resurrects would also have been part of a larger story involving the Kree, Shi'ar, Skrulls, and the Spartoi where there is a Galactic powerplay for Earth. All aspects of the MU are involved, but while taking part in an X-Men diplomatic mission to the Shi'ar as things are ramping up, Rachel and Cable start getting summons as they enter Shi'ar space. Finally following the call, the siblings arrive at the M'Kraan crystal which is being besieged by the Skrulls and Spartoi forces to claim as their own. Defending the crystal, they are pulled in by the Phoenix Force and Jean as they are about to be overrun. The Phoenix tests the two, in which they awaken Jean from the White Hot Room and become heralds to the White Crown. Embued with the powers of the Phoenix that they have accepted, the trio under Jean's leadership, enter the fray and help establish an end to the conflict. Jean then chooses to return to her human life with the X-Men and becomes the co-leader with Storm (heading her own Red Team) and breaks her bond with the Phoenix entirely. Nathan and Rachel also relinquish their herald positions, but the PF hides parts of it's essence in them for future potential storylines.

  10. #40
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    Jean’s death wasn’t the first major death in X-Men. Both Professor X and Magneto had already died and been resurrected after being dead long term in the book.
    I pointed out in my original post that it wasn't the first. It was one of the most prolific. Nearly everyone who has ever picked up a comic book is aware of the Phoenix Saga. No one really talks about that time(s)* Professor X died, or when he was replaced by Changeling, etc.

    *Sometimes we talk about AvX, but mostly to complain about how terrible it was as a story.
    "The White Queen welcomes you, TO DIE!"

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    It was Shooter not Claremont as CC already had Madelyne as the "not quite Jean" wife and Rachel as Jean's legacy character, and Scott didn't abandon Rachel as he didn't even know she was his alt. daughter. It was Nate, but potatoe patatoe. I don't disagree that Jean shouldn't have been resurrected initially because it unraveled a lot of the things Calremont was doing and then caused issues (Jean vs madelyne, the demonization of Madelyne, the start of the 'Jean and Rachel can't exist in the same space' bit.
    Sorry...meant wife and son...Jean shows up alive and all of a sudden Scott is more than happy to abandon Maddie and Nathan.

  12. #42
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    The whole 'time-travel Offspring with the same look and powers' trope shouldn't be a thing and isn't a good reason not to bring a classic character back.

  13. #43
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    I would've ignored Warsong and Endsong and continue from Here Comes Tomorrow.
    "Cable was right!"

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    I would've ignored Warsong and Endsong and continue from Here Comes Tomorrow.
    How so? Genuinely interested.

  15. #45
    Spectacular Member otipep_90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    I pointed out in my original post that it wasn't the first. It was one of the most prolific. Nearly everyone who has ever picked up a comic book is aware of the Phoenix Saga. No one really talks about that time(s)* Professor X died, or when he was replaced by Changeling, etc.

    *Sometimes we talk about AvX, but mostly to complain about how terrible it was as a story.
    Yes you did mention it, but what I don’t understand is why so many people consider Jean Grey’s Dark Phoenix death as so icon? Compare it to other character deaths in the franchise or even her second death, which lasted longer and had more consequences? Even though the second death which was an ill conceived fridging in a more modern time where character’s should have been allowed to divorce or annul their marriage, was used to reboot Cyclops and make him the new figurehead of the franchise.

    Personally for me the Phoenix Saga that preceded the Dark Phoenix Saga was more icon and did more to revitalize the franchise than the Dark Phoenix Saga and the period that followed. Honestly those first few story arcs, if not the first year after Jean’s death seemed almost aimless until Claremont started exploring how the other X-Men were affected by Jean’s death. The climax of that story was Madelyne Pryor’s introduction and she was suppose to be a replacement for Jean. What would have happened to Jean’s character? Most new readers wouldn’t never care about her. Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben are plot devices like Batman’s parents and eventually some writer would want to explore them to some capacity because they would just be a plot device.

    Nostalgia is what makes Jean’s Dark Phoenix death iconic. One of the best things Hickman did was eliminate death as a plot device from the franchise. Jean’s death became a precedent for killing off prolific X-Men characters to only use their death as a plot device. Death and nostalgia was killing the franchise.

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