It's irrelevant whether or not Superman is a good dad or husband.

[manwhohaseverything]

BvS Batman was, considering it was a Superman movie, oddly the best of his action to me. It looked different than the Batman movies stuck between the slick fighting of Casino Royale and the intense almost Power Rangers style action of the Marvel movies.

All of the focus on a rookie Superman or just generally having only about two hours for him doesn't allow for great hand to hand kinda stuff. It's not really the center of being Superman. I was very pleased with MoS in that regard, though. Frenetic and tremendous, but I don't think a golden age approach where they emphasize the all but jettisoned acrobatics and dexterity would really make it look like action manga. Maybe with enough episodes in animation (or digital comics, the Sook drawn fight from Man of Steel was so good digitally) but the protracted, serial fights descended from Popeye have pretty much always been replaced by all of the other story possibilities. Funny enough Superman is a "one punch" type in that the story usually builds up to action as a resolution and it's typically pretty quick win or lose.

For comics I think Swan was underrated in that drawing like a million stories, he drew all sorts of fights along the way and his storytelling made them effective and unique.



That being pretty different from the fight in Earth Stealers

That depends on the type of manga. Naruto or full-metal-alchemist was very much centered around dexterity and acrobatics. It had one of the best action. See, the bombardments happen when they up scale. Furthermore, the action sequences with allmight in my hero is pretty much quintessential superman.


Oh! I wasn't referring to the beam fights although that could add make apparent the devastation of fights.And it's very much villains that determine the type of battle,for the most part. I was mostly talking about him getting suddenly knocked to the space. It was very much a shock as it had never happened before till that point in the show. Furthermore, as i said it bought reprieve. You can't expect mass audiences to sit through 3 or 4 minutes of that kind of action. Man of steel failed in this part. It had major pacing issues . Also, one punch man was also genuinely funny afterwards.
Take alook afterwards saitama realises he can't breath. Plugs his nose and throws a rock in the moon.
https://youtu.be/MQR94J9hyc4
This kinda thing can be something draws people in. See, these bug buget movies need the spectacle along with the essence. Superman is larger than life and his personality is as well. So, showing it off isn't bad thing.

Superman saying with a manly voice something like "This is a job for superman" or "Have no fear, citizens. I am here", smiles and winks at the camera. Sure, its corny but when superman says it with his enthusiasm and determination, its something else. Ofcourse, it can't be just that. he needs the depth. His smile needs to have the weight of the world. I have never much seen superman's this side ever been captured in other media. The unyielding optimism at the face of insurmountable odds. Superman is a text book stoic. His smile when he is in pain should be focused more often. Furthermore, it dates back to the strongman ethics and resilience of the character.

[Kuwagaton]

Quintessential Superman doesn't punch the big monster down to the street, lol

Not sure what "modern audiences" tolerate myself. Superman being platonic with Lois is a chaste boy scout, having a strong relationship makes him look dependent and dramatic, he doesn't have enough big fights, his fights are too over the top... eh.

[manwhohaseverything]

Quintessential Superman doesn't punch the big monster down to the street, lol

Not sure what "modern audiences" tolerate myself. Superman being platonic with Lois is a chaste boy scout, having a strong relationship makes him look dependent and dramatic, he doesn't have enough big fights, his fights are too over the top... eh.

Actually, he does. Superman is kinda worse he has punched villains through walls that has people . What do you expect when superpowered individuals, fight? . His support used bubble gun to stop the missles and allmight punches knocks missle away with air pressure away from buildings. He punches into ground where there are'nt people. Furthermore, there are protection and recovery team to help with the damage. Since, in this world this kinda thing is very common and they are government sanctioned.So,the repairs are on the house. They need the heroes.Even then allmight is whatever to help. That fight is standard superhero. It wasn't that over the top. Spiderman movies had this kinda action. And, look at the comments people are comparing the guy to superman, in a good way.

I can't say about modern audiences. I just think the romance and drama takes priority and centre stage. The action and presentation part isn't well thought out in superman media, generally. There is serious lack of creativity or focus in that department. Which is a complaint. I like romance when it's in the background or with less drama.

Superman as character is built on interactions with his world. The more dynamic the world, the more entertaining superman will be. But, just focusing on relation whether it's familial or romantic will be counter productive. Why? Because it would narrow focus from the world as a whole. Its like this, superman does something and the world reacts. The world does something superman reacts. That's how the game goes. It's a push and pull.

i believe people complain because they don't find entertainment, so they scrutinies and nitpick. Zack snyder movies and bryan singer movies all fall for this.

[Agent Z]

The X-Men didn't really work as a concept until it was applied, so they are better with it than not. But I agree, how well it's executed depends on whose writing it.

I'd question if it can work at all these days. The mutant metaphor had some relevance in a time when writers were relatively reluctant to tackle problems facing marginalized groups in stories where members of said groups were the main protagonists. I'm not sure it's all that impressive when we have Luke Cage, Black Lightning, Kamala Khan and Batwoman dealing with bigotry towards real life marginalized groups. Not to mention the metaphor was already showing cracks when Claremont had Kitty compare the mutie slur to the n word. Then you add in X-franchise's bad history with minority characters like Storm's background of being worshipped by primitive Kenyans or the Betsy/Kwannon debacle that took three decades to undo and you wonder if the metaphor is just an excuse for the writers to appropriate the struggles of real life minority groups while refusing to actually focus on them or write them intelligently.

Later stories don't matter as much. All eyes were on the reboots at the time, and in them the rich guy is the rebel who goes after the other corrupt rich and movers and shakers, while the embodiment of the working man's spirit doesn't get a singular cool moment like that in the era where edgy badass heroes were gaining traction. Despite the fact that, of the two, his concept leans more towards it than Batman (though they should both be doing it) and he did it first.

Just after TDKR, where he was a tool for the establishment. This was a deadly combination of things, along with the lack of a good movie while Batman was getting '89.

First impressions are just that. People focusing entirely on one story out of countless ones and ignoring the rest of the character's history says more about them and how they judge characters than the quality of the character. Batman going after the corrupt elite has always been the exception to the rule and anyone who thinks otherwise is either being dishonest to themselves or ignorant of what the character is really like.

[manwhohaseverything]

You can't ignore first impressions if you want to sell things. Presentation matters.

[Agent Z]

You can't ignore first impressions if you want to sell things. Presentation matters.

You also can't pretend that what comes afterwards doesn't matter when it comes to presentation.

I feel like some fans aren't so much complaining about the quality of Superman stories so much as the type of Superman stories and media that are popular.

[manwhohaseverything]

You also can't pretend that what comes afterwards doesn't matter when it comes to presentation.

I feel like some fans aren't so much complaining about the quality of Superman stories so much as the type of Superman stories and media that are popular.

Dude, for people to buy things they need to get on board. What comes afterwards will only matter if what comes first works. It's about making the character a draw, so ofcourse popularity matters. There is fare bit of overlap between seeking both quality and popularity. Superman needs content that are both.

[Agent Z]

Dude, for people to buy things they need to get on board. What comes afterwards will only matter if what comes first works. It's about making the character a draw, so ofcourse popularity matters. There is fare bit of overlap between seeking both quality and popularity. Superman needs content that are both.

Considering we are in a thread primarily discussing post crisis Superman and Superman being a family member, I'd say that isn't problem for Superman now and wasn't a problem then.

[manwhohaseverything]

Considering we are in a thread primarily discussing post crisis Superman and Superman being a family member, I'd say that isn't problem for Superman now and wasn't a problem then.

How exactly does being on thread about Superman family be related to his draw as character? Superman sales hasn't been great since ages. He sells mediocre. He is out media aren't great either. He isn't viewed as much of draw so constantly is shoved aside for popular character. Harley quinn is a bigger draw in wb's eyes. Joker made a billion.a feat superman has never done. A fan forum post mean insignificant .Negativity isn't popularity. It's infamy.
You are dceu superman. Right? If first impressions didn't matter then why did zack snyder movies fail? Why couldn't he finish his arc with superman who shy, introverted and unsure of himself guy to outspoken, extroverted and confident superman.

[SiegePerilous02]

First impressions are just that. People focusing entirely on one story out of countless ones and ignoring the rest of the character's history says more about them and how they judge characters than the quality of the character.

First impressions count whether you like it or not. It's not fair, but that's how it is. it can make or break a character's success or popularity.

Batman going after the corrupt elite has always been the exception to the rule and anyone who thinks otherwise is either being dishonest to themselves or ignorant of what the character is really like.

And what is the objective truth of what Batman is really like that we have determined we're being dishonest about?
He goes after all crime, and when written correctly, isn't blind to the real sources of it. He spends most of his time battling garish supervillains because that's more entertaining and seemingly what most people want.

[Agent Z]

First impressions count whether you like it or not. It's not fair, but that's how it is. it can make or break a character's success or popularity.

Some times it does, some times it doesn't. Last I checked, Superman is still here.

And what is the objective truth of what Batman is really like that we have determined we're being dishonest about?
He goes after all crime, and when written correctly, isn't blind to the real sources of it. He spends most of his time battling garish supervillains because that's more entertaining and seemingly what most people want.

Replace Batman's name with Superman in this comment and what you say would still be true. Arguably more so since Superman's most consistent enemy is a corrupt member of the 1% whereas Batman's enemies are more likely to be victims of crime and corruption.

[Agent Z]

How exactly does being on thread about Superman family be related to his draw as character? Superman sales hasn't been great since ages.

He was selling badly before he became a family man and even before post crisis

He is out media aren't great either.

For you maybe.

Harley quinn is a bigger draw in wb's eyes.

The box office returns for Birds of Prey show this isn't the case for audiences.

Joker made a billion.a feat superman has never done.

Who cares?

A fan forum post mean insignificant .Negativity isn't popularity. It's infamy.

I don't think you truly understand the irony of this comment.

You are dceu superman. Right? If first impressions didn't matter then why did zack snyder movies fail?

Man of Steel is the most financially successful Superman movie since Superman 2 and has a high audience rating on RT.

Why couldn't he finish his arc with superman who shy, introverted and unsure of himself guy to outspoken, extroverted and confident superman.

Edit: You know what. I'm not going to bother with this one because I really have no desire to discuss it further and any discussion about the Snyder movies seems to turn immediately toxic.

[Vordan]

Byrne is an immigrant. I'd say his take or one influenced by it is authentic.

I’m not saying his take is inauthentic to what a real immigrant might feel or think, I just don’t think it’s very good personally. Of course there are and were immigrants who come to the US and want to join the great “melting pot”. But there’s also been a change occurring about how we view immigrants and immigration and how they view their relationship with the USA. I just don’t think the Byrne take that a good immigrant needs to decry their roots as bad and declare that they hold no connection whatsoever with where they come from to be a good thing. I think it removes a lot of drama and characterization from Clark with little gain. Of course I do think he should still consider himself “Clark Kent” first and foremost and not “Kal-El”.

[SiegePerilous02]

Replace Batman's name with Superman in this comment and what you say would still be true. Arguably more so since Superman's most consistent enemy is a corrupt member of the 1% whereas Batman's enemies are more likely to be victims of crime and corruption.

Which enemies? They aren't really hurting for money with all the death traps they build. as the Joker said to the Black Glove, "Rich? I've flushed more money down the toilet than you've ever seen." The Black Glove also being a cabal of eccentric and corrupt rich assholes. And they use it to hurt the average Gotham citizen, working class or lower.


Most of his enemies are not realistically mentally ill, it's arguable that some are just getting a lighter sentence to places like Arkham when they don't actually belong there. Where is Batman shown beating up average people with depression or more benign mental illnesses instead of serial killers? Plus he doesn't show much if any sympathy for the likes of Ferris Boyle, Max Shreck, Roland Daggett, the Riddler's boss in that one BTAS episode, Rupert Thorne or whoever and seems to regard them with even more contempt than his more colorful enemies.

[Agent Z]

Which enemies?

Ivy, Catwoman, Dent, Croc, Clayface depending on who it is, Bane etc.

They aren't really hurting for money with all the death traps they build. as the Joker said to the Black Glove, "Rich? I've flushed more money down the toilet than you've ever seen."

Poverty is only an obstacle for heroes and villains when the writers want it to be.

The Black Glove also being a cabal of eccentric and corrupt rich assholes. And they use it to hurt the average Gotham citizen, working class or lower.

And where have the Black Glove been since Morrison's run?

Most of his enemies are not realistically mentally ill, it's arguable that some are just getting a lighter sentence to places like Arkham when they don't actually belong there.

The books certainly seems to think they do. Also, I didn't bring up mental illness.