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  1. #61
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    First impressions are just that. People focusing entirely on one story out of countless ones and ignoring the rest of the character's history says more about them and how they judge characters than the quality of the character. Batman going after the corrupt elite has always been the exception to the rule and anyone who thinks otherwise is either being dishonest to themselves or ignorant of what the character is really like.
    Maybe more about the post you're quoting, but it's not like one is the "heart of the people" and the other isn't by design. It was also said earlier that being a champion of the oppressed is just a generic qualification and I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    You can't ignore first impressions if you want to sell things. Presentation matters.
    The companies are consumed with first impressions in a medium that relies on sustained interest. All these new origins and #1 issues sell great but follow the obvious trend of diminishing returns as it goes on. Superman pretty much never needs a first impression and I say that as someone who is completely cool with reboots.

    First impression efforts don't have the benefit of hindsight, so Superman being so often first in many things is just the creators trying their best.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    How exactly does being on thread about Superman family be related to his draw as character? Superman sales hasn't been great since ages. He sells mediocre. He is out media aren't great either. He isn't viewed as much of draw so constantly is shoved aside for popular character. Harley quinn is a bigger draw in wb's eyes. Joker made a billion.a feat superman has never done. A fan forum post mean insignificant .Negativity isn't popularity. It's infamy.
    You are dceu superman. Right? If first impressions didn't matter then why did zack snyder movies fail? Why couldn't he finish his arc with superman who shy, introverted and unsure of himself guy to outspoken, extroverted and confident superman.
    It might sound like I get down on other characters but it's really just when it comes to comparison to Superman. Harley is a very popular character and she has incredible potential for hitting demographics other DC characters can hardly touch... but she's not bigger than Superman. Not in the WB budget or box office, not in merchandise, and not in comics. Superman is generally only after Batman and Spider-Man as a solo comic lead and right now his spin off level is particularly impressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Actually, he does. Superman is kinda worse he has punched villains through walls that has people . What do you expect when superpowered individuals, fight?
    A lot of the MoS criticism at the fan level was due to him having generally very conscious creators. Abandoned buildings, scheduled to be demolished, taking the fight away, etc. The only sleep at the wheel moment that comes to mind for me is the Bizarro fight in Last Son and super free for alls like the end of the story.
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  2. #62
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Ivy, Catwoman, Dent, Croc, Clayface depending on who it is, Bane etc.


    Poverty is only an obstacle for heroes and villains when the writers want it to be.



    And where have the Black Glove been since Morrison's run?




    The books certainly seems to think they do. Also, I didn't bring up mental illness.
    Then I'm honestly not sure what stance you're trying to take here. You mention his classic enemies as being more realistic victims of society, but then don't want to bring up the mental illness or poverty, which is the go to excuses for them. Which are the typical (IMO, pretty shallow) arguments against Batman, that he's a rich white dude who beats up the mentally ill or downtrodden. Despite the fact that's far more likely to protect the average citizen or mentally ill from the Arkham "crowd" or corrupt systems or violent criminals than not.

    Otherwise he fights the mob and aliens.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Then I'm honestly not sure what stance you're trying to take here. You mention his classic enemies as being more realistic victims of society, but then don't want to bring up the mental illness or poverty, which is the go to excuses for them. Which are the typical (IMO, pretty shallow) arguments against Batman, that he's a rich white dude who beats up the mentally ill or downtrodden. Despite the fact that's far more likely to protect the average citizen or mentally ill from the Arkham "crowd" or corrupt systems or violent criminals than not.

    Otherwise he fights the mob and aliens.
    My stance is that Superman is no less likely to take on the corrupt elite than Batman. I really wasn't trying to make any judgements on Batman as my main point. For the ones I mentioned;

    Ivy was a victim of abuse

    Croc was mistreated because of his skin condition and a recent retcon suggested he never actually ate people that was just a rumor

    Bane was imprisoned because of a crime his father committed

    Dent... okay this one does fall under mental illness. My bad.

  4. #64
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    My stance is that Superman is no less likely to take on the corrupt elite than Batman. I really wasn't trying to make any judgements on Batman as my main point. For the ones I mentioned;

    Ivy was a victim of abuse

    Croc was mistreated because of his skin condition and a recent retcon suggested he never actually ate people that was just a rumor

    Bane was imprisoned because of a crime his father committed

    Dent... okay this one does fall under mental illness. My bad.
    Ah my bad too, on the first point.

    For the villains though, I think them having tragic backstories enriches them as characters and makes Batman's world morally gray. But then we do not usually have Batman being unsympathetic (within reason) for their circumstances, and it's usually not a valid excuse for them to hurt others. At least completely innocent people who had nothing to do with it, Batman doesn't seem too broken up about any discomfort Boyle experiences while Freeze is pointing a freeze ray at his crotch lol.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Its relevant because its actually what they're doing. When you're actively doing something it can't not be relevant. Just do it good. Therin laying the problem because they haven't done it good.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Lois Lane is the ::most:: central and consistent element of the Superman mythology. She existed before he could do literally all of the things that Superman fans prize and obsess over —-including fly. Their relationship is part of the spine of this myth.

    Furthermore, Lois Lane was created as a :artner:: not just in life and in romance but distinctly in the fight against injustice.

    Lois Lane is not a “side element” and it’s disingenuous to imply that she is. She is part of the spine of the myth.

    The bottom line is that Superman being a good husband and father AND Superman/Lois/Clark fighting daily against injustice are not competing concepts and it’s bizarre that you are implying that they are. Superman is not a cipher. He’s not an empty shell. He’s a complex, deep, wonderful, frustrating person who is capable of truly extraordinary feats AND also capable of great love. Love is not trivial. Love is not nothing. Love is not a “side plot.”

    Frankly, given the near constant display of toxic masculinity in our culture where men are often portrayed as insensitive, aloof, not emotionally connected and incapable of ::faithfulness:: its revolutionary to have a character like Superman showing that it does not threaten ones masculinity to love deeply, to be faithful and to be present as a father. These things ::are:: often rarer than they should be and, certainly, do not detract from the very idea that Lois and Clark and Superman, are constantly focused on fighting injustice.
    I wouldn't say that. Lois as a character definitely evolved and changed greatly since her debut.

    Her more assertive and action girl-esque traits are definitely not innate to the character.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I wouldn't say that. Lois as a character definitely evolved and changed greatly since her debut.

    Her more assertive and action girl-esque traits are definitely not innate to the character.
    They are. That's how she was depicted in the Golden Age. She became a typical damsel in distress and nagging girlfriend who was obsessed with marrying Superman in the Silver Age. The modern incarnations of Lois are closer to how the character was originally depicted.

  8. #68
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    A lot of the MoS criticism at the fan level was due to him having generally very conscious creators. Abandoned buildings, scheduled to be demolished, taking the fight away, etc. The only sleep at the wheel moment that comes to mind for me is the Bizarro fight in Last Son and super free for alls like the end of the story.
    I wasn't talking about MOS. Postcrisis superman has had slugfests in the middle of the road. Goldenage guy used to through bad guys and put them through walls. Dcau superman destroyed a city and punched a darkseid through two buildings with people. New52 superman had did same with greenlantern and batman. There were stories were even perry used to be on the case of superman for the damage .

    Dude, i can't believe punching someone into an abandoned road is that big a deal. The fact that you complaint suggests that allmight doesn't care about people is bonkers for me. It's ridiculous . Allmight tries to save everyone. He is known to "go beyond plus ultra" to save everyone. He hasn't got a utilitarian bone in him, for better or for worse. The fact that he consciously punches the guy into a place where there aren't people, tells you he is conscious.He punches the guy straight away from people in the first place. When these guys starts to run around, that's when he punchs the guy into the ground where there aren't any people . Otherwise, he could just punch him whereever he wants. He needs to end it in one shot, so that people don't get affected, more. Just watch the full scene. He is applauded as the new hero,from japan training in america. This the first time i am hearing this complaint about all might. Its very bizarre.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-08-2020 at 10:58 PM.

  9. #69
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They are. That's how she was depicted in the Golden Age. She became a typical damsel in distress and nagging girlfriend who was obsessed with marrying Superman in the Silver Age. The modern incarnations of Lois are closer to how the character was originally depicted.
    A damsel in destress who flew planes and used tommy guns, sure.Lois was.
    Edit- you were talking about silverage. My bad.on a side note, Lois rejects clark cause of his behaviour. Not because clark is timid.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-08-2020 at 11:03 PM.

  10. #70
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Yeah, she really wasn't so unfair to Clark, and pretty cool with him in the moments he came off like at least a regular guy with self respect even if he wasn't the toughest or most charismatic.

    But it's like the view of women back then was too big a handicap for the writers. They could write her as really strong but couldn't help coming from a perspective of believing that it was despite an inherent weakness. Also, it's not like other men weren't helpless compared to Superman but since she was the biggest recurring character we saw her in the same spot repeatedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I wasn't talking about MOS. Postcrisis superman has had slugfests in the middle of the road. Goldenage guy used to through bad guys and put them through walls. Dcau superman destroyed a city and punched a darkseid through two buildings with people. New52 superman had did same with greenlantern and batman. There were stories were even perry used to be on the case of superman for the damage .

    Dude, i can't believe punching someone into an abandoned road is that big a deal. The fact that you complaint suggests that allmight doesn't care about people is bonkers for me. It's ridiculous . Allmight tries to save everyone. He is known to "go beyond plus ultra" to save everyone. He hasn't got a utilitarian bone in him, for better or for worse. The fact that he consciously punches the guy into a place where there aren't people, tells you he is conscious.He punches the guy straight away from people in the first place. When these guys starts to run around, that's when he punchs the guy into the ground where there aren't any people . Otherwise, he could just punch him whereever he wants. He needs to end it in one shot, so that people don't get affected, more. Just watch the full scene. He is applauded as the new hero,from japan training in america. This the first time i am hearing this complaint about all might. Its very bizarre.
    Post Crisis, the idea was that a fight would only be sustained in the city if we were shown that the threat couldn't be moved, and it would still be mentioned as directed away from the population. But I just remembered Atlas, too, which is a strange case of a good writer who's done completely different Superman stories cranking out arguably the worst. Golden age slugfests weren't really a thing, although it's pretty funny if you think about how often he'd burst through buildings on his own. New 52, yeah, Johns and Perez had some really weird stuff going on in figuring out who the new version was supposed to be.

    That clip you posted clearly shows a crowd but the thing too here is, I don't actually care about All Might. I'm not on any forum where the intention is to discuss him. He comes up here every once in a while, and I'm kinda bummed that Superman is demoted to being compared to a supporting cast member in his case.
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  11. #71
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Yeah, she really wasn't so unfair to Clark, and pretty cool with him in the moments he came off like at least a regular guy with self respect even if he wasn't the toughest or most charismatic.

    But it's like the view of women back then was too big a handicap for the writers. They could write her as really strong but couldn't help coming from a perspective of believing that it was despite an inherent weakness. Also, it's not like other men weren't helpless compared to Superman but since she was the biggest recurring character we saw her in the same spot repeatedly.



    Post Crisis, the idea was that a fight would only be sustained in the city if we were shown that the threat couldn't be moved, and it would still be mentioned as directed away from the population. But I just remembered Atlas, too, which is a strange case of a good writer who's done completely different Superman stories cranking out arguably the worst. Golden age slugfests weren't really a thing, although it's pretty funny if you think about how often he'd burst through buildings on his own. New 52, yeah, Johns and Perez had some really weird stuff going on in figuring out who the new version was supposed to be.

    That clip you posted clearly shows a crowd but the thing too here is, I don't actually care about All Might. I'm not on any forum where the intention is to discuss him. He comes up here every once in a while, and I'm kinda bummed that Superman is demoted to being compared to a supporting cast member in his case.
    Well, that guy took a straight hook from allmight and was still on his feet after being sent flying. I think if he wasn't put on the ground quite literally, he would have ran around. He might be supporting cast. But, he is a kickass supporting cast. Many have wanted an allmight spinoff.There is loss, there is action and there is a genuine threat. Allmight is treated as every bit a hero as deku is, a superman should be by Kohei Horikoshi. It's the only place i can really enjoy superman like content in outside media,currently. That's why he is brought up. And i am majorly guilty of it.

    But, here i only brought the action sequences and only after one punch man. I didn't bring up the ethical parts or story beats. Did i? Actions require references. Even if i come up with an original set of movements or sequences. I would need you to actually see them to get the idea and for you to make a judgement. I can't just talk about it. I can't just say "superman throws a left hook, two right jabs and an uppercut" can i? Which brings me to something seriously sad, I haven't seen superman do any of the things he does in the video in media, accept for maybe fleischer cartoons. Not even close. I do think this proves, that superman like action sequences can be quite stunning, well choreographed and be exciting. His powers aren't boring. It's just used by the creatives in uninteresting way. Superman rarely does anything that make people go, "that was straight up fire!!". He comes and throws some uninspiring punches and goes back to whatever.There is no style or effort being made to make it good and have essence. Action requires essence and a purpose . There are a lot of sequences in old samurai movies and western's where there will only be silence and action will have to convey everything. I believe even samurai jack had these moments. I believe superman should as well. Villains need to also be built up, as well. Superman might be an overdog. But, he needs the consequences. Even steel can bend or be broken. It's no fun if superman doesn't get hurt. Have him actually deal with a broken arm or rib from mongul or brainiac. Action requires consequences.

  12. #72
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Which is unfortunate. Between comedy and action cartoons all over the world, it's pretty obviously the most important source of the same things people read these comics for in the first place. Back when the Fleischer cartoons came out, it wasn't something that could keep up with the comics for very long. I'm not saying they were easy to do or that doing modern cartoons is easy, but WB poured a billion dollars into Superman over a five year stretch so I don't think a seasonal approach (so they're not just going through the motions like long running anime) to a Superman dedicated to overall quality is all that daunting. We've had comic creators adjust the comics to fit modern tastes and I'm into it, but that doesn't actually pull people into the medium to a great degree of success.
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