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  1. #46
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    People mention Peter as a graduate research assistant in the PS4 game, and while I think that worked really well in the game, I think part of it also hinged on the fact that he ended up working for Doc Ock. Like in Spec when he was an assistant for Conners right up until he becomes The Lizard. So it seems like the only way to make Peter with a science job interesting is to have him work with a Supervillain up until they transform, because otherwise...what? He works for Max Modell? Would that really be interesting in the long-term? Even other adaptions you have The Jackal or Osborn.

    Otherwise it would probably just be an excuse for Peter making more of his tech (like how the game also used it as an excuse for upgrades), but that's not much of a "job" in my opinion.
    I don't really get this opinion; can't you say that about any job for Peter? What's so interesting about him being a teacher or photographer? Is working underneath annoying Karen (no idea what her real name was lol), the office administrator at Midtown High School, really interesting in the long term?

    At least being a scientist has two main advantages in that it's basically what Peter's always wanted to do and what he's best at, as well as giving writers lots of ways to intertwine storylines between his civilian life and superhero life (ex. maybe some of his tech gets stolen by villains, or a colleague goes full mad scientist, or he needs to make some upgrades, or whatever).
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  2. #47
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    I don't really get this opinion; can't you say that about any job for Peter? What's so interesting about him being a teacher or photographer? Is working underneath annoying Karen (no idea what her real name was lol), the office administrator at Midtown High School, really interesting in the long term?
    The supporting cast? The dramatic irony (I'm talking more the Bugle here)? The community aspect? I think the Bugle definitely intertwined his civilian and Superhero life better.
    At least being a scientist has two main advantages in that it's basically what Peter's always wanted to do and what he's best at, as well as giving writers lots of ways to intertwine storylines between his civilian life and superhero life (ex. maybe some of his tech gets stolen by villains, or a colleague goes full mad scientist, or he needs to make some upgrades, or whatever).
    That sounds more Iron Man than Spider-Man to me.

    I get it's Peter's preferred career choice but I just don't think writers have been able to make it work as a long-term viable career path.

  3. #48
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The supporting cast? The dramatic irony (I'm talking more the Bugle here)? The community aspect? I think the Bugle definitely intertwined his civilian and Superhero life better.
    By dramatic irony, if you're talking about Peter taking photos for anti-Spider-Man stories and working for a Spider-Man detractor, it's not really a factor anymore now that Jameson knows who Peter is. I think it's widely agreed upon that Jameson learning Peter's identity was a huge step forward for both characters, so would you honestly trade that away to go back to the old status quo?

    I'm also not really sure what you mean about the supporting cast since the only really important Bugle supporting cast member is JJJ and he's been a supporting cast member no matter where Peter works. You could argue Robbie/Betty are important as well, but far less so. At least with Betty, Peter is her best friend so she can still be in the title a decent amount even if Peter doesn't work at the Bugle. Other than that, who else do you mean? I don't think 2 less important supporting cast members should be a huge factor, to be honest. I'm also not sure what you mean by the community aspect.

    Furthermore, doesn't all this stuff only apply to the Bugle? Are you saying being a teacher isn't a great job for Peter either?

    That sounds more Iron Man than Spider-Man to me.

    I get it's Peter's preferred career choice but I just don't think writers have been able to make it work as a long-term viable career path.
    Why does it have to "sound more Iron Man than Spider-Man"? Those were just extremely basic story structures that have been repeated ad infinitum (many of which have been in Spider-Man comics already). Peter's tech has been stolen by villains on multiple occasions, he's had to deal with colleagues being evil, he's obviously made tech upgrades since his very first appearance, etc. So it sounds extremely "Spider-Man" to me. Can you elaborate on what you mean by it not working as a long-term viable career path? What career paths do you think have been made to work in that way?
    Last edited by blackspidey2099; 04-14-2020 at 06:49 PM.
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  4. #49
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    By dramatic irony, if you're talking about Peter taking photos for anti-Spider-Man stories and working for a Spider-Man detractor, it's not really a factor anymore now that Jameson knows who Peter is. I think it's widely agreed upon that Jameson learning Peter's identity was a huge step forward for both characters, so would you honestly trade that away to go back to the old status quo?
    I was talking more on a general basis then about the current status quo.
    I'm also not really sure what you mean about the supporting cast since the only really important Bugle supporting cast member is JJJ and he's been a supporting cast member no matter where Peter works. You could argue Robbie/Betty are important as well, but far less so. At least with Betty, Peter is her best friend so she can still be in the title a decent amount even if Peter doesn't work at the Bugle. Other than that, who else do you mean? I don't think 2 less important supporting cast members should be a huge factor, to be honest. I'm also not sure what you mean by the community aspect.
    But people primarily view JJJ as a Bugle character and Peter, more often than not, is depicted as working at the Bugle so it seems more conducive to put the two together in a situation where they're more likely to interact with each other. Like, the podcast worked well in the game but I'd rather see Jonah actually interact with Peter and Spider-Man in a more physical and direct manner.

    Robbie and Betty are definitely important and more memorable then any supporting character created for Peter's science jobs who weren't established Supervillains. I'd rather put the characters in a setting where they're more likely to interact then just contrive situations where they interact.

    By community aspect I mean a job that gets Peter more out there in what's going on in the world, both Superhero and otherwise, in a grounded way and offer a wider variety of experiences. At least in my opinion.
    Furthermore, doesn't all this stuff only apply to the Bugle? Are you saying being a teacher isn't a great job for Peter either?
    The community aspect was at least a part of the teaching job, and I feel like you could get more genuine and dynamic character moments with Peter as a teacher then Peter the scientist (at least in terms of career).
    Why does it have to "sound more Iron Man than Spider-Man"? Those were just extremely basic story structures that have been repeated ad infinitum (many of which have been in Spider-Man comics already). Peter's tech has been stolen by villains on multiple occasions, he's had to deal with colleagues being evil, he's obviously made tech upgrades since his very first appearance, etc. So it sounds extremely "Spider-Man" to me. Can you elaborate on what you mean by it not working as a long-term viable career path? What career paths do you think have been made to work in that way?
    But if it's made central or relevant to his job it seems more like something that I think you would see in an Iron Man book. And frankly they don't seem to make it that worthwhile an element to justify it as a status quo.

    What I mean as a long-term viable career path is that it would end up being something that Peter could really stick with for as long as he was at the Bugle and have that same impact/dynamic that made the Bugle work. I don't think writers have really found that yet, and media depictions of Peter's science jobs inevitably end badly for one reason or another. Sort of like how Peter wants to do what he loves professionally but he can never really make it work as a career permanently.

  5. #50
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    Honestly, I think what people like in adaptations is the fact that they are different...if any of these changes went into 616, I don't think many would like it.

    To give an example, I liked the organic web-shooters when I saw the first SM1 movie. I thought it was cool and made sense. Then after seeing the second movie and the whole puberty-webbing maxed out take, as well as reading the comics, I came to appreciate mechanical web-shooters. That doesn't mean the first movie is bad or anything.

    I actually liked the Ultimate version of the Symbiote and Venom, and the ties to Richard Parker when I read Bendis' original arc...but later I came to outgrow it. I have no problems with how Spectacular Cartoon handled it but again, I think the way the Symbiote and Venom was introduced originally in the comics was best.

  6. #51
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I will say I prefer how the PS4 Spider-Man game and Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon handled Peter's tech. I hate an overly teched out Spider-Man but I felt like the game and cartoon added sensible gear or gadgets that didn't detract from Spidey's natural skills or instincts or make him some kind of a Batman pastiche.

  7. #52
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    By dramatic irony, if you're talking about Peter taking photos for anti-Spider-Man stories and working for a Spider-Man detractor, it's not really a factor anymore now that Jameson knows who Peter is. I think it's widely agreed upon that Jameson learning Peter's identity was a huge step forward for both characters, so would you honestly trade that away to go back to the old status quo?
    We've gotten some good moments and stories out of that, but I feel the development takes away more than it adds in the long run.

    I'm perfectly okay with Jameson not knowing who Spider-man is and still hating him.

    At least being a scientist has two main advantages in that it's basically what Peter's always wanted to do and what he's best at,
    Those are two great reasons for him NOT to do that. Much like the marriage, it gets a past the finish line. There no longer any race or struggle. He's where he wants to be and he's fine staying there instead of trying to be better.

  8. #53
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    I have several of these. I agree with the consensus here that Ultimate and Insomniac Aunt May are better than the 616 version. The comic book Aunt May was a really annoying, shrill character for a long time.

    I also vastly prefer the Insomniac Mr. Negative to the 616 one. I've always thought he was a cool villain in the comics, but the game gave him a really tragic backstory (and more visually interesting powers) that made him really come alive as Spider-Man's equivalent of Mr. Freeze.

    I prefer the way the Ultimate universe utilized Kingpin to the more generic Bond villain that he was in the original Spider-Man books. Bendis wrote the best Spider-Man vs Kingpin stories that exist, and it's telling that the Insomniac game implied that Peter's history with Fisk was more similar to the ultimate universe than 616.

    On a similar. note, I like the idea of the venom suit making Peter angrier and more violent. It is a really solid idea that plays into the core themes of the character well and it adds to Venom's appeal as a villain. My favorite version of Venom is a representation of the self absorbed loser who refuses to accept the blame for his mistakes, which is who Peter was when he first got his powers.

    While the 616 Vulture is a really cool character with some great stories, I prefer the version from Spider-Man Homecoming. He was such a menacing, multi layered character and I loved him as a sort of dark mirror for Uncle Ben, as a blue collar family man who sold out on his morals for money. I also love the idea that fighting him is what helped solidify Peter's mission statement to be looking out for "the little guy". The Vulture represented someone who was kind of screwed over by the larger scale heroes like the Avengers and he showed Peter that he could look after everyday citizens in a way that the Avengers can't what with them being so involved in the big picture. That dynamic is part of why I love Homecoming so much (which seems to put me in the minority in this sub, so I'm sure some of you will disagree with me on this one).

    I also like the idea of giving High School aged Peter a friend who knows about his double life and serves as a confident, be it Mary Jane from the Ultimate universe or Ned in the MCU movies. I know some may argue that him being a loner is a large part of what made the original incarnation appealing, but. I would argue that, with with geek culture being more the norm these days, it makes sense that a kid like Peter Parker would have at least a few good friends, and I think I'm having one person who knows about his abilities makes for a fresh dynamic that is fun and plays into the wish fulfillment of the character. It worked like gangbusters in Ultimate and it works in the MCU as well, so if we rebooted 616, I'd be cool with keeping this around.

    Finally, I like Eddie Brock, Curt Connors, and Norman Osborn being regular parts of the supporting cast before becoming villains.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Thank you for not mentioning Mary Jane as a reporter .
    For MJ, I always kind of liked the aspiring Stage Actress thing she had going in the Raimi trilogy. I know her as a reporter kind of felt more like a means to an end to get her more directly involved with Peter's heroics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Parker View Post
    I also like the idea of giving High School aged Peter a friend who knows about his double life and serves as a confident, be it Mary Jane from the Ultimate universe or Ned in the MCU movies. I know some may argue that him being a loner is a large part of what made the original incarnation appealing, but. I would argue that, with with geek culture being more the norm these days, it makes sense that a kid like Peter Parker would have at least a few good friends, and I think I'm having one person who knows about his abilities makes for a fresh dynamic that is fun and plays into the wish fulfillment of the character. It worked like gangbusters in Ultimate and it works in the MCU as well, so if we rebooted 616, I'd be cool with keeping this around.
    I feel like if Peter was going to get a best friend who doubles as his confidant who's not MJ or Harry, it should probably be Randy.
    Last edited by CrimsonEchidna; 04-15-2020 at 08:26 AM.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Parker View Post
    I also like the idea of giving High School aged Peter a friend who knows about his double life and serves as a confident, be it Mary Jane from the Ultimate universe or Ned in the MCU movies. I know some may argue that him being a loner is a large part of what made the original incarnation appealing, but. I would argue that, with with geek culture being more the norm these days, it makes sense that a kid like Peter Parker would have at least a few good friends, and I think I'm having one person who knows about his abilities makes for a fresh dynamic that is fun and plays into the wish fulfillment of the character.
    With Spider-Man it's not important that he be a loner for good, but it's important that he start out as one. And no matter how many terms geek or nerd culture takes, there are still teenagers who are marginalized, asocial, and attract dislike or attention. High School remains High School no matter what other changes happen.

    In the comics, MJ became his confidant by ASM#259 and she has remained that way since then, regardless of whatever turns their relationship has taken. With Ultimate Spider-Man, Peter told MJ his identity in Issue #13, operating as a loner hero for 12 issues before that.

    So all Bendis did in USM and what others do in modern adaptations is shoehorn and bring forward later elements from ASM's run and put it in at the teenage years. It gives their runs a jet-propelled dimension, and it has a sense of distinguishing it from the classic version.

    Finally, I like Eddie Brock, Curt Connors, and Norman Osborn being regular parts of the supporting cast before becoming villains.
    And there's a major trade-off. Like in the comics when Green Goblin learned who Spider-Man was, he had this reaction of "he's just a kid, I'd never have guessed" (eee the attached image). Whereas in Raimi's SM1, it was a kind of personal betrayal and interior reaction that the person Norman liked is the person Goblin hates (which Dafoe conveys very well). Not saying one is better, just different. Then you have the Ultimate Spider-Man comic by Bendis, where Norman knows from the start and he never gets to know Spider-Man before he knows Peter.

    As I said, I have come to prefer the Brock/Venom reveal in 616...where Eddie was just some random guy who tumbled into Peter's world. That feels to me more credible and original.
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  11. #56
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    I prefer the way the Ultimate universe utilized Kingpin to the more generic Bond villain that he was in the original Spider-Man books. Bendis wrote the best Spider-Man vs Kingpin stories that exist, and it's telling that the Insomniac game implied that Peter's history with Fisk was more similar to the ultimate universe than 616.
    I actually think the 90s animated series had the best Kingpin (at least the best Kingpin for Spider-man's world.) He had a criminal empire, but it straight up involved amd science and super villains in addition to the normal criminal stuff.

    For MJ, I always kind of liked the aspiring Stage Actress thing she had going in the Raimi trilogy. I know her as a reporter kind of felt more like a means to an end to get her more directly involved with Peter's heroics.
    MJ does not work as a reporter to me. That's Lois Lane. ... maybe Vicki Vale. ... Having her as a struggling wannabe actress is a nice nod to her comics supermodel/actress stuff without making her too glamorous.

    I also love the first Raimi movie's idea that Spider-man wasn't the name he picked out. He had a "cool" sounding name and the announcer thought it sucked so he got labeled as The Amazing Spider-Man! That just seems like such a great small Parker's luck moment.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I actually think the 90s animated series had the best Kingpin (at least the best Kingpin for Spider-man's world.) He had a criminal empire, but it straight up involved amd science and super villains in addition to the normal criminal stuff.
    I prefer Spectacular Spider-Man using Tombstone, and also the PS4's Tombstone. Tombstone fits as a mob-boss supervillain who has some powers that allows him to pull off a fight with Spider-Man.

    Fisk though will always be a diminished character in any Spider-Man story. The real Wilson Fisk will always be the guy in Daredevil stories.

    I also love the first Raimi movie's idea that Spider-man wasn't the name he picked out. He had a "cool" sounding name and the announcer thought it sucked so he got labeled as The Amazing Spider-Man! That just seems like such a great small Parker's luck moment.
    That's a case of a comics-to-screen adaptation. In the comic, Peter Parker becoming Spider-Man or calling himself that was done quickly in AF#15 because it's a 12-Page story for a character who was created to lead an ongoing. So Peter calling himself "Spider-Man" can't be a big moment. In the movie though, where that 12-Page story is expanded to a full hour (the first half of that movie), you need to sell the moment where people call him Spider-Man as a big deal. And Bruce Campbell was well-served to be the hypeman.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Insomniac Spidey, to me, is not just a great universe and great story...it’s one of the best Spider-Man story I’ve ever read/seen. That’s how highly I rank it and the universe.

    I like Aaron Davies Prowler from the comics. I think Bendis had him from going bad to murderer, but the little bit beforehand where he is blackmailing Miles could have gone on longer.

  14. #59
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    I liked the detail from the Ultimate Universe that Peter originally got his costume, at least a proto-version of it, from the time he worked as a wrestler.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    For MJ, I always kind of liked the aspiring Stage Actress thing she had going in the Raimi trilogy. I know her as a reporter kind of felt more like a means to an end to get her more directly involved with Peter's heroics.
    I agree. I always liked the idea of MJ being a stage actress as opposed to being a film/TV actress. It just feels very particular to NYC to have her on stage.

    MJ being a reporter in the PS4 game was the only creative decision that I disliked. It felt so generic. I would have sacrificed MJ being directly involved if it meant getting a more classic portrayal of the character. Otherwise, the PS4 game is one of my favorite adaptations of Spider-man.

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