What're some traits or plot points that you prefer to 616 canon?

[Jman27]

I agree. I always liked the idea of MJ being a stage actress as opposed to being a film/TV actress. It just feels very particular to NYC to have her on stage.

MJ being a reporter in the PS4 game was the only creative decision that I disliked. It felt so generic. I would have sacrificed MJ being directly involved if it meant getting a more classic portrayal of the character. Otherwise, the PS4 game is one of my favorite adaptations of Spider-man.

that and her reasoning for breaking up with him was pretty stupid for me I think she is the worst Mj for me

[Revolutionary_Jack]

MJ being a reporter in the PS4 game was the only creative decision that I disliked. It felt so generic. I would have sacrificed MJ being directly involved if it meant getting a more classic portrayal of the character.

Ever heard the phrase 'don't let the perfection be the enemy of the good'?

Fact is that nobody, and I mean no one has ever done a classic portrayal of any part of Spider-Man. We have had, and probably will continue to have, new takes that mix and match and regurgitate stuff.

I have no problems with MJ being a reporter. She was one in Bendis' USM, so why not. Do I want that to displace the classic MJ? No. Just like I don't want "Eddie Brock was part of Peter's supporting cast pre-venom" to go into 616 either.

[Frontier]

I also vastly prefer the Insomniac Mr. Negative to the 616 one. I've always thought he was a cool villain in the comics, but the game gave him a really tragic backstory (and more visually interesting powers) that made him really come alive as Spider-Man's equivalent of Mr. Freeze.

Insomniac is literally the only really great take on Mr. Negative in my opinion.

I also like the idea of giving High School aged Peter a friend who knows about his double life and serves as a confident, be it Mary Jane from the Ultimate universe or Ned in the MCU movies. I know some may argue that him being a loner is a large part of what made the original incarnation appealing, but. I would argue that, with with geek culture being more the norm these days, it makes sense that a kid like Peter Parker would have at least a few good friends, and I think I'm having one person who knows about his abilities makes for a fresh dynamic that is fun and plays into the wish fulfillment of the character. It worked like gangbusters in Ultimate and it works in the MCU as well, so if we rebooted 616, I'd be cool with keeping this around.

I think part of being Spider-Man, at least for Peter, is this sense of isolation and solidarity in that experience of being Spider-Man, where only he can really take care of things and he's basically on his own 90% of the time. And that he's a very internal guy in a lot of ways.

I think he can have a confidante but having that confidante should also come with it's own issues. Like, both in 616 and Ultimate, MJ knowing helped somewhat but it also created more emotional problems for Peter to some extent.

I don't really see that with Ganke in the MCU.

For MJ, I always kind of liked the aspiring Stage Actress thing she had going in the Raimi trilogy. I know her as a reporter kind of felt more like a means to an end to get her more directly involved with Peter's heroics.

Especially when the comics are re-emphasizing the acting job again.

With Spider-Man it's not important that he be a loner for good, but it's important that he start out as one. And no matter how many terms geek or nerd culture takes, there are still teenagers who are marginalized, asocial, and attract dislike or attention. High School remains High School no matter what other changes happen.

I think being a solo hero is just in Spidey's blood. It's why these attempts to make him part of teams or give him this big family of Spider-Heroes just don't really gel organically.

I actually think the 90s animated series had the best Kingpin (at least the best Kingpin for Spider-man's world.) He had a criminal empire, but it straight up involved amd science and super villains in addition to the normal criminal stuff.

Roscoe Lee Brown is still the definitive Kingpin voice in my opinion.

MJ does not work as a reporter to me. That's Lois Lane. ... maybe Vicki Vale. ... Having her as a struggling wannabe actress is a nice nod to her comics supermodel/actress stuff without making her too glamorous.

Although MJ is a naturally glamorous character. Just look at her introduction.

I have no problems with MJ being a reporter. She was one in Bendis' USM, so why not. Do I want that to displace the classic MJ? No. Just like I don't want "Eddie Brock was part of Peter's supporting cast pre-venom" to go into 616 either.

Well, she was more of an aspiring reporter in the last 3/4 of his Peter run, although that kind of got forgotten about in the Relaunch up until Peter died.

Maybe if they gave reporter MJ more of a personality then just "I'm a reporter" or let her have more of the flair, style, and sass of her 616 self.

[Spider-Tiger]

Ever heard the phrase 'don't let the perfection be the enemy of the good'?

Fact is that nobody, and I mean no one has ever done a classic portrayal of any part of Spider-Man. We have had, and probably will continue to have, new takes that mix and match and regurgitate stuff.

I have no problems with MJ being a reporter. She was one in Bendis' USM, so why not. Do I want that to displace the classic MJ? No. Just like I don't want "Eddie Brock was part of Peter's supporting cast pre-venom" to go into 616 either.

I have no problem with them mixing and matching elements from different continuities. As I stated before, I thought their interpretation of May was better than classic 616 May. But I didn't care for this interpretation of MJ. The whole "gutsy reporter girlfriend" trope (and that's pretty much all her character was in this game) felt far too cliche even if the occupation itself was used before by Bendis or the USM cartoon. It didn't feel like MJ so much as it felt like stock superhero love interest character #245657. JMHO

Edit: Just to be clear, I do love the PS4 game as a whole. I was just stating my opinion of MJ's characterization specifically.

[witchboy]

With how many posts I read about Peter being best friends with Harry in high school, it makes me wonder how many people know that Harry and Peter actually didn't like each other at first when they met each other in college. Even the TAS remembered to made a point that Peter and Harry's friendship was a fairly recent development.

What're some story traits that you liked better than what's canon to Earth-616?

For Example:

• I love May's interactions with Peter and her trauma in Ultimate Spider-Man. It made her feel much less like the set piece that JMS made her out to be.
• Norman in the comics rarely seems to have concrete plans in the ccomics besides "destroy Spider-Man". That's why most of his adaptations are superior to his OG interpretation.
• I love how Weisman made sure that Peter's supporting cast wasn't shunted aside. Peter's social life is more than just something to create problems for him.
• I love how Peter in Ultimate Spider-Man actually tells MJ and May his idetity rather than them stumbling upon it. It shows a much greater level of maturity on Peter's part.
• I still wish comics ran in real-time but I know my wish will never be granted. *Sigh*

A side note, if you want to read a comic in real time. former Spidey artist Erik Larsen's Savage Dragon has been running in real time for decades. Kid that were born in the early years are now adults.

[Frontier]

I have no problem with them mixing and matching elements from different continuities. As I stated before, I thought their interpretation of May was better than classic 616 May. But I didn't care for this interpretation of MJ. The whole "gutsy reporter girlfriend" trope (and that's pretty much all her character was in this game) felt far too cliche even if the occupation itself was used before by Bendis or the USM cartoon. It didn't feel like MJ so much as it felt like stock superhero love interest character #245657. JMHO

Edit: Just to be clear, I do love the PS4 game as a whole. I was just stating my opinion of MJ's characterization specifically.

I agree with this. I liked how they handled Peter and MJ on a relationship level but MJ's reporter job felt like "been there, done that."

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Just to be clear, I do love the PS4 game as a whole. I was just stating my opinion of MJ's characterization specifically.

That's fair.

The PS4 game did capture MJ's snarkiness in her banter with Peter. Like there's one part where she lays into Peter, "Is everything a joke to you?" which was just the right delivery. And I like the bit where when sneaking into Osborn's penthouse she says, "Ugh...Osborn would have a pool" and her absolutely not-impressed attitude to Norman's gauche taste in interior decor. Which is very much MJ's attitude in comics. Like she once called Roderick Kingsley "a louse". To me, as long as they get those aspects of MJ right...her compassion, her defiance of society, and her lack of awe for wealthy and powerful people (which she always had even in the Lee-Romita era, look at how she reacts to Harry when the latter tries to treat himself as the best thing in her life in "The Drug Trilogy"), then other stuff is negotiable, i.e. she can be a journalist, actress and so on. I like the fact that the game emphasized her conscience. Like when Peter wonders if Fisk was right about NY not being able to get on without him, MJ calls him out for thinking that, saying no matter the consequences, you can't allow Fisk to run the city like that. And I like her dialogue with Peter bringing out her intelligence about people, like when she talks to him about Otto: "I guess you have to decide if the Otto Octavius you knew is still in there or not... maybe if he was ever even in there at all"

One of my favorite levels in that game is the one in grand-central where you play MJ and then you just have to a notice and Spider-Man comes in and takes out some mook. It was great having MJ sicc Spider-Man on bad guys. That felt quite thrilling and very much in keeping with their dynamic and relationship.

So the PS4 is still true to Mary Jane in the comics, just not to the most obvious aspects. In the same way that Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane is also true to her character, (in fact truer to comics!MJ than Tobey is to comics!Peter).

[Frontier]

That's fair.

The PS4 game did capture MJ's snarkiness in her banter with Peter. Like there's one part where she lays into Peter, "Is everything a joke to you?" which was just the right delivery. And I like the bit where when sneaking into Osborn's penthouse she says, "Ugh...Osborn would have a pool" and her absolutely not-impressed attitude to Norman's gauche taste in interior decor. Which is very much MJ's attitude in comics. Like she once called Roderick Kingsley "a louse". To me, as long as they get those aspects of MJ right...her compassion, her defiance of society, and her lack of awe for wealthy and powerful people (which she always had even in the Lee-Romita era, look at how she reacts to Harry when the latter tries to treat himself as the best thing in her life in "The Drug Trilogy"), then other stuff is negotiable, i.e. she can be a journalist, actress and so on. I like the fact that the game emphasized her conscience. Like when Peter wonders if Fisk was right about NY not being able to get on without him, MJ calls him out for thinking that, saying no matter the consequences, you can't allow Fisk to run the city like that. And I like her dialogue with Peter bringing out her intelligence about people, like when she talks to him about Otto: "I guess you have to decide if the Otto Octavius you knew is still in there or not... maybe if he was ever even in there at all"

One of my favorite levels in that game is the one in grand-central where you play MJ and then you just have to a notice and Spider-Man comes in and takes out some mook. It was great having MJ sicc Spider-Man on bad guys. That felt quite thrilling and very much in keeping with their dynamic and relationship.

So the PS4 is still true to Mary Jane in the comics, just not to the most obvious aspects. In the same way that Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane is also true to her character, (in fact truer to comics!MJ than Tobey is to comics!Peter).

Most of her interactions with Peter and even her internal monologues felt very true to MJ, although any mention of reporter stuff just took me out of it.

I definitely feel like the writing could have lent more to MJ's sassiness and snark then we actually got in the game. I'm actually kind of curious how Laura Bailey might change her performance if it were a more comic based MJ.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Most of her interactions with Peter and even her internal monologues felt very true to MJ, although any mention of reporter stuff just took me out of it.

I definitely feel like the writing could have lent more to MJ's sassiness and snark then we actually got in the game. I'm actually kind of curious how Laura Bailey might change her performance if it were a more comic based MJ.

At the end of the day, Spider-Man PS4 is a videogame. What that means is that the developers needed to work MJ into the story in a way that was organic to the medium. In a comic, you can make MJ feel important and as the emotional center because each issue isn't necessarily or always about the action, and you can have character beats and stuff. So MJ being an actress or in entertainment can work there perfectly fine.

But in an action-adventure game, certain professions tend to emphasize being in action more than others. Look at most videogames, and the protagonists are some kind of elite of some sorts. And a reporter sneaking around via stealth and stuff has been done, like in Beyond Good and Evil. So they chose that to make MJ a POV character and a big part of the games. That way MJ can be mission control, she can be the one who does the lore stuff and so on.

Most adaptation changes are done for the sake of the medium and not primarily for the story. Which is one reason why it's hard to work these changes back into the original comic. Because at the end of day, Spider-Man PS4 isn't about reporting or journalism. Mary Jane was made a reporter to better serve the function of a Spider-Man story that you can play, interact, and inhabit via gameplay.

[Batman Begins 2005]

I prefer how Brian Michael Bendis writes Peter Parker/Spider-Man in Ultimate Spider-Man to how he writes the 616 version. Felt off with me.

[David Walton]

I think part of being Spider-Man, at least for Peter, is this sense of isolation and solidarity in that experience of being Spider-Man, where only he can really take care of things and he's basically on his own 90% of the time. And that he's a very internal guy in a lot of ways.

I think he can have a confidante but having that confidante should also come with it's own issues. Like, both in 616 and Ultimate, MJ knowing helped somewhat but it also created more emotional problems for Peter to some extent.

I don't really see that with Ganke in the MCU.

I couldn't agree more. I prefer the 616 version to almost any take because of that sense of isolation, often self-imposed. And keeping in mind I love the marriage but I'm mindful that it took MJ breaking down Peter's walls for that to happen. He didn't reveal his secret to her, she found out on her own and eventually revealed her discovery. Which is typical Peter Parker IMO and one of his most compelling aspects.

While I get the call for 'maturity,' I think Peter's growth tends to manifest differently than it might in other heroes. He's never going to be 100% comfortable in his own skin. He's never going to freely confide in others who don't break down his walls first. That's just his nature.

The 80s got it right in my opinion--Peter is perfectly capable of working with other heroes but he'll never be a full time team player, primarily because that's not how he sees himself. A character trait perfectly expressed by this sequence from Stern/Romita Jr.'s ASM #246 "The Daydreamers":

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I prefer how Brian Michael Bendis writes Peter Parker/Spider-Man in Ultimate Spider-Man to how he writes the 616 version. Felt off with me.

That's definitely the case and that rings true to me as well.

But it's understandable too. Bendis created Ultimate Peter, he created that version of the character, created its personality and was the only writer of that character. It would be hard for someone to transition from that to 616 Peter, where Bendis had to work with Peter on satellite titles and team-up books, rather than ASM, and as such had to go by someone else's direction of that character.

Having said that, Bendis does write Peter's supporting cast well...he wrote Jonah well in Alias, and his MJ in the Iron Man series was far more "on point" than she was in Slott's run. He also wrote 616 Norman (relatively) well. So I guess it's just 616 Peter that's an issue for him.

While I get the call for 'maturity,' I think Peter's growth tends to manifest differently than it might in other heroes. He's never going to be 100% comfortable in his own skin. He's never going to freely confide in others who don't break down his walls first. That's just his nature.

The 80s got it right in my opinion--Peter is perfectly capable of working with other heroes but he'll never be a full time team player, primarily because that's not how he sees himself. A character trait perfectly expressed by this sequence from Stern/Romita Jr.'s ASM #246 "The Daydreamers"

Anyone who quotes "The Daydreamers" is fine with me.

And to me Peter being isolated and not being able to open to people isn't a growth thing. It's a personality thing. Some personality stuff are things you never grow out of and in a way you maybe shouldn't because it somehow did help play a part in making you the person you turn out to be. And it's wrong to assume that there's some normal version of yourself you will grow into.

[David Walton]

That's definitely the case and that rings true to me as well.

But it's understandable too. Bendis created Ultimate Peter, he created that version of the character, created its personality and was the only writer of that character. It would be hard for someone to transition from that to 616 Peter, where Bendis had to work with Peter on satellite titles and team-up books, rather than ASM, and as such had to go by someone else's direction of that character.

Having said that, Bendis does write Peter's supporting cast well...he wrote Jonah well in Alias, and his MJ in the Iron Man series was far more "on point" than she was in Slott's run. He also wrote 616 Norman (relatively) well. So I guess it's just 616 Peter that's an issue for him.

Bendis' sensibilities tend to favor ground level supporting characters IMO. Those are often a bit easier to explore in depth because they haven't been fleshed out as much as the primary series protagonists. But I think he also has a tendency to re-write 616 heroes' character DNA to fit the stories he wants to tell--hence Peter becoming the kind of guy who hangs out with the Avengers full time, in spite of forty years of continuity baggage that shows why that wouldn't be the case. (This is just my bias, mind you, not a slight on his immense talent!)

[David Walton]

Anyone who quotes "The Daydreamers" is fine with me.

"The Daydreamers" is criminally underrated and should come up in every top 10 Spider-Man stories conversation.

And to me Peter being isolated and not being able to open to people isn't a growth thing. It's a personality thing. Some personality stuff are things you never grow out of and in a way you maybe shouldn't because it somehow did help play a part in making you the person you turn out to be. And it's wrong to assume that there's some normal version of yourself you will grow into.

Agreed 100%. That's what I meant when I said growth for Peter manifests differently than it might for others--and, as you've stated more eloquently than me, his 'maturity' shouldn't be judged by another personality type's benchmark. And he shouldn't be shamed for essential personality traits that are neither inherently good or bad in and of themselves.

In AF 15, Peter's tendency to keep to himself manifests in his selfish attempt to shut out the world entirely; after that, it's primarily a protective mechanism for those closest to him as well as an attempt to have something of himself that still belongs to himself. There are times when that has served him well and others when it hasn't, but it is an essential quality.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Bendis' sensibilities tend to favor ground level supporting characters IMO. Those are often a bit easier to explore in depth because they haven't been fleshed out as much as the primary series protagonists. But I think he also has a tendency to re-write 616 heroes' character DNA to fit the stories he wants to tell--hence Peter becoming the kind of guy who hangs out with the Avengers full time, in spite of forty years of continuity baggage that shows why that wouldn't be the case. (This is just my bias, mind you, not a slight on his immense talent!)

No I agree. I don't think Bendis was right for the big Marvel-wide stuff. On the whole his stuff for Alias, Daredevil, USM, and also Infamous Iron Man (with Doom as a hero) holds up better than New Avengers. He did create cool concepts, like "Illuminati" which Hickman took to the next level but that run is not imperishable.

"The Daydreamers" is criminally underrated and should come up in every top 10 Spider-Man stories conversation.

Signed.

Agreed 100%. That's what I meant when I said growth for Peter manifests differently than it might for others--and, as you've stated more eloquently than me, his 'maturity' shouldn't be judged by another personality type's benchmark. And he shouldn't be shamed for essential personality traits that are neither inherently good or bad in and of themselves.

In AF 15, Peter's tendency to keep to himself manifests in his selfish attempt to shut out the world entirely; after that, it's primarily a protective mechanism for those closest to him as well as an attempt to have something of himself that still belongs to himself. There are times when that has served him well and others when it hasn't, but it is an essential quality.

True.

I mean Marvel Editorial like to reduce characters to formula to better justify their decisions. So they like to make out Peter's personality to be down to age, when psychologically speaking it's not believable at all that people outgrow every single aspect of who they are at 15.