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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    It's a fact according to you, but social constructs only matter to those who embrace them.
    It's absolutely not according to me. I didn't create any of the rules here, nor did I write any of the comics.

    At best, one could say Bruce is biologically Jewish or "half-Jewish" but not actually Jewish as he does not see himself as such nor would others outside of the social construct bubble.
    "Biologically Jewish" is "actually Jewish".
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  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    It's absolutely not according to me. I didn't create any of the rules here, nor did I write any of the comics.

    "Biologically Jewish" is "actually Jewish".
    Made by you or made by others it remains a cultural construct.

    No, it isn't. No more than being biologically African is being culturally African or being biologically East Asian is being culturally East Asian. That is what I (and anthropological/sociological terminology) mean by actually versus biologically.
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  3. #48
    Astonishing Member The Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBarnhill View Post
    Me personally, I’m a huge stickler for what Bill Finger, a Jew himself, wants. He specifically wanted Bruce to have a heritage that suggests colonialism and power and giving him a WASP identity was very important in conveying that.
    I agree with this. Bruce and the Waynes to me have always come off as old school WASPs
    DC, hurry up and make your own version of Marvel Unlimited!

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    It's a fact that Martha Wayne was Jewish. It's a fact that Judaism is passed matrilineally, at least traditionally. And it's a fact that, at least in Rabbinic Judaism, someone who is Jewish, whether by birth or conversion, is Jewish forever.
    Martha isn't Jewish. Her brother converted. That doesn't make her Jewish.

    Unless I'm missing some obscure throwaway subtext from some poorly-edited Batwoman title that only a few thousand people read, then Bruce is not Jewish.

  5. #50
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    I think we are making too much importance to this thing: we are talking about comics and if there is a thing we should have understood about the comics, this is that a retcon can change everything in every moment: for the past eighty years Bruce Wayne was a W.A.S.P., now someone made him Jewish, tomorrow some other writer will reveal us the Martha Wayne's mother was adopted, so Bruce Wayne will not more be Jewish, then another writer will tell us that also the actual Martha Wayne's mother was Jewish and so on.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I think we are making too much importance to this thing: we are talking about comics and if there is a thing we should have understood about the comics, this is that a retcon can change everything in every moment: for the past eighty years Bruce Wayne was a W.A.S.P., now someone made him Jewish, tomorrow some other writer will reveal us the Martha Wayne's mother was adopted, so Bruce Wayne will not more be Jewish, then another writer will tell us that also the actual Martha Wayne's mother was Jewish and so on.
    LMAO, a valid point.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-05-2020 at 09:54 AM.
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  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelerInTheDark View Post
    Martha isn't Jewish. Her brother converted. That doesn't make her Jewish.

    Unless I'm missing some obscure throwaway subtext from some poorly-edited Batwoman title that only a few thousand people read, then Bruce is not Jewish.
    She is. And it's not subtext, it's actual text, what with there being a menorah present at her and Thomas's funeral. We know it's not for Thomas, so who else could it possibly be for? Martha.

    That was in 'Tec #939, which is neither obscure nor poorly-edited, and even if it was, canon isn't dependent on how many readers something has. Making a rude crack about it was uncalled-for. Batwoman and Batwoman-associated stories are no less legitimate than Batman ones.
    Last edited by Caivu; 06-05-2020 at 11:25 AM.
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  8. #53
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    DC's in it's entire history has never been consistent about how the Wayne Family tombstone looks like. Is it an 8 foot tall monolith that Bruce is looking up at or is it small grave only about as tall as Bruce's hip? Are there other graves nearby or are they buried separately?

    Somebody draws a Menorah at the Wayne funeral for the first and only time and suddenly Martha is Jewish and there is no 'ifs' or 'buts' about it even though there is no text from her known backstory before or after to support this? Dini did a whole arc in 'Streets of Gotham' focusing on Martha's backstory and never once mentioned Martha being Jewish even as he kept explicitly identifying Zatanna as a Roma in the same arc then in a separate story 'Zatanna/Black Canary: Bloodspell', he had her go through what was described as a 'magical Bar Mitzvah'. Of course the real problem is that if Martha and Jacob were this close then it raises all sorts of questions like how Bruce ended up being raised by Alfred and not the Kanes. I don't think Kate even needs to be blood related Bruce to legitimize her claim to the Batwoman mantle, Barbara isn't related either and she is considered the 'iconic' Batgirl. Probably the best fix would be to reveal Martha's last name is actually 'Milton Finger', explicitly say she is a non-practicing Jew but not related to Jacob. So Bruce would still technically be Jewish, the plot holes opened by tying the Kanes and the Waynes too closely would be filled and in the spirit of true compromise, it leaves neither party completely satisfied.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Dini did a whole arc in 'Streets of Gotham' focusing on Martha's backstory and never once mentioned Martha being Jewish even as he kept explicitly identifying Zatanna as a Roma in the same arc then in a separate story 'Zatanna/Black Canary: Bloodspell', he had her go through what was described as a 'magical Bar Mitzvah'.
    Irrelevant. That was written before Bruce and Kate were established as cousins.

    Of course the real problem is that if Martha and Jacob were this close then it raises all sorts of questions like how Bruce ended up being raised by Alfred and not the Kanes.
    It's not a question. The Kanes didn't like Thomas, Jacob in particular didn't like Thomas, and Kate's family lived in North Carolina at the time. Alfred being named in the will as Bruce's guardian is not in any way a stretch, and even if he weren't, a judge could overrule that based on Bruce's well-being (hardly a good thing to immediately uproot a traumatized child and move him hundreds of miles away with family he doesn't know well).

    I don't think Kate even needs to be blood related Bruce to legitimize her claim to the Batwoman mantle,
    Her blood relation doesn't legitimize her anyway. Never has.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    DC's in it's entire history has never been consistent about how the Wayne Family tombstone looks like. Is it an 8 foot tall monolith that Bruce is looking up at or is it small grave only about as tall as Bruce's hip? Are there other graves nearby or are they buried separately?

    Somebody draws a Menorah at the Wayne funeral for the first and only time and suddenly Martha is Jewish and there is no 'ifs' or 'buts' about it even though there is no text from her known backstory before or after to support this? Dini did a whole arc in 'Streets of Gotham' focusing on Martha's backstory and never once mentioned Martha being Jewish even as he kept explicitly identifying Zatanna as a Roma in the same arc then in a separate story 'Zatanna/Black Canary: Bloodspell', he had her go through what was described as a 'magical Bar Mitzvah'. Of course the real problem is that if Martha and Jacob were this close then it raises all sorts of questions like how Bruce ended up being raised by Alfred and not the Kanes. I don't think Kate even needs to be blood related Bruce to legitimize her claim to the Batwoman mantle, Barbara isn't related either and she is considered the 'iconic' Batgirl. Probably the best fix would be to reveal Martha's last name is actually 'Milton Finger', explicitly say she is a non-practicing Jew but not related to Jacob. So Bruce would still technically be Jewish, the plot holes opened by tying the Kanes and the Waynes too closely would be filled and in the spirit of true compromise, it leaves neither party completely satisfied.
    I never understood how someone could use another's symbol or claim a mantle for their own without the approval or consent of the creator/originator, blood relationship or not. And if the originator objects they are seen as being in the wrong, it doesn't sit right. Now no one is saying that the person cannot become a hero in their own right if they choose to, but taking someone else's identity and acting entitled without their permission is not a good look. Create your own unique identity and do away with mantles to be handed down.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean what does it add to his character? I mean generally in comics things do play a role in the growth of the characters.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    I never understood how someone could use another's symbol or claim a mantle for their own without the approval or consent of the creator/originator, blood relationship or not. And if the originator objects they are seen as being in the wrong, it doesn't sit right. Now no one is saying that the person cannot become a hero in their own right if they choose to, but taking someone else's identity and acting entitled without their permission is not a good look. Create your own unique identity and do away with mantles to be handed down.
    Kate's bat is a bat, not Bruce's bat. It means what she says it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I mean what does it add to his character? I mean generally in comics things do play a role in the growth of the characters.
    This article goes into it a bit, but here's a key passage (bolding mine):

    Fact of the matter is, Bruce being Jewish isn’t something that changes his character at all. It only enhances and gives greater context to what was always there. The World’s Greatest Detective. His unwinnable war on crime. The man who molded himself into an effectively unkillable and unbeatable force of will. Did Andreyko know this when he pitched [Bruce and Kate being cousins]? Pbbbth, probably not. Does that matter? Nope.
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  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    She is. And it's not subtext, it's actual text, what with there being a menorah present at her and Thomas's funeral. We know it's not for Thomas, so who else could it possibly be for? Martha.

    That was in 'Tec #939, which is neither obscure nor poorly-edited, and even if it was, canon isn't dependent on how many readers something has. Making a rude crack about it was uncalled-for. Batwoman and Batwoman-associated stories are no less legitimate than Batman ones.
    Oh yeah, so basically nothing. The whole idea that such a loose and infinitesimal happenstance can ascribe such a label is honestly cheap and parasitic. Especially when people are under the idea that such a fiction (that is in no way representative of everything that has actually built the character to be what they are now) would somehow be a net positive. In my eyes it only serves to call into question a foundation aspect of the character. A character that I happen to care very strongly about.

    Also since people like to argue this way, allow me to sink down to that level. There's nothing to say Martha's brother didn't put the menorah there because he's a shithead. And he may not be a very well known character, but he is a known shithead if nothing else. Or it could be a flourish of the artist that shouldn't be there and slipped past editing.

    At the end of the day it doesn't matter. Jewish, not Jewish...Batman is Batman. But that's just not a change I see amounting to any kind of net positive at all.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelerInTheDark View Post
    The whole idea that such a loose and infinitesimal happenstance can ascribe such a label is honestly cheap and parasitic. Especially when people are under the idea that such a fiction (that is in no way representative of everything that has actually built the character to be what they are now) would somehow be a net positive. In my eyes it only serves to call into question a foundation aspect of the character. A character that I happen to care very strongly about.
    What's the "foundation aspect" you're talking about here, and why does Bruce being Jewish threaten that so much?

    Also since people like to argue this way, allow me to sink down to that level. There's nothing to say Martha's brother didn't put the menorah there because he's a shithead. And he may not be a very well known character, but he is a known shithead if nothing else.
    Argue what way? By using actual on-panel evidence to support claims? Yes, how terribly lowbrow of me.

    Seriously, though. You're just having a laugh here, but your argument doesn't work because it's not in Jacob's character to do what you're claiming he might've done. You're talking about Jacob strong-arming a bit of religious iconography into his sister's funeral for... some reason. That's nonsensical, and does not at all square with Jacob's established character; he's actually not, as you claim, "a known shithead," and certainly not to such a warped and petty level as that.
    Last edited by Caivu; 06-05-2020 at 11:38 PM.
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  15. #60
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Here's a different question: Does anyone in-universe acknowledge it as being a Menorah, and not just an elaborate candle holder? Multiple candle candlesticks made of gold are one of those traditionally ostentatious things rich people often have. Doing a web search for pictures of menorahs gives a lot of hits that don't look special, and really just look like fancy candle sticks.

    got a picture? 'cause I'm curious what it actually looks like.

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