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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Eith Ra's or Talia is a descendant of Christ as evidenced by the fact that Damian is the true heir of the Suit of Sorrows (which Bruce is not) (Azreal 2009, both series, Multiversity: The Just).
    Were is that from, I can't remember that ever being mentioned in the comics, and I thought it was said that Micheal Lane was the heir to the Suit.

  2. #17
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    He's already the head of his own religion



    The Miagani knew what's up: there's only one god the Bat God

  3. #18
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Because others have explained (very well) the genealogical and historical reasons because Bruce should not become Jewish, I will try to face this matter from another point of view: there isn't any real reason to write such retcon because a retcon make sense only if there are some major issues with the origins of a character. For example in origins Jason Todd was a Dick Grayson clone, so the writers have rewritten the Jason's origins, in order to make the character more different to the first Robin and this is something the readers can understand and accept; is this also the case of these alleged Bruce's Jewish origins? No, the ethnicity and the religious beliefs of the Wayne family aren't an issue for Bruce Wayne, so there isn't nothing than a writer can solve changing his origins; on the contrary this retcon might cause issues in the Batman continuity, because it is in contradiction with almost all his past stories.

    P.S. Anyway, I think charliehustle415 killed the topic: why follow a religion when your are the God of yourself?

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Given that it's Kate's mother who is Jewish, not Jacob Kane, it would be odd to say Martha was Jewish.
    Jacob and Martha are Jewish.

    Bruce is generally shown as being a lapsed Episcopalian, which makes sense for his family's social standing.
    One can be both, you know. He can be Jewish and never ever set foot in a synagogue.

    There's no reason to assume he's Jewish except for a few loud pushy commenters on this site who conveniently ignore that Jacob converted to his wife's religion upon marriage.
    Back this up. Where is this ever said or established? Anywhere?

    That Kate as a young child brought objects from her religion to her aunts funeral doesn't mean Martha was Jewish, it means that people respected a child's right to mourn in the structure she is comfortable with.
    Where is this ever said? Why are you assuming Kate's the one who brought the menorah seen at the funeral? That's a hefty leap to make on zero evidence. The obvious answer it's there is because Martha was Jewish, and it's weird seeing people jump through all sorts of invented, imaginary hoops to try and deny that.
    Last edited by Caivu; 04-11-2020 at 09:12 AM.
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  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    He's already the head of his own religion



    The Miagani knew what's up: there's only one god the Bat God
    His true faith is fighting crime.

  6. #21
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    I honestly think that, whatever Bruce is, he's not very religious, not enough that it would matter, not enough to follow the rules of any given creed.

    That being said, Bruce has such a strong sense of guilt, blame and punishment that he does feel catholic (he lacks th shame part, though, imho). But I don't think he would follow other thing than any branch of the british-american Protestantism. He certainly feels like he's culturally straight white, rich east north-american. From my point of view, the one from someone from western Europe.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 04-12-2020 at 09:50 AM.

  7. #22
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    How did you come by this logic? Kate's maternal grandfather was the brother to Bruce's grandfather. Kate's grandfather married a Jewish woman who had Kate's mom. Making both the mother and Kate automatically Jewish as Jewish identity is passed down automatically through the mother. But this has nothing to do with Bruce. My understanding if you want to classify yourself as Jewish (because your dad's Jewish) religious authorities won't dismiss you. But this has to be a deliberate decision.

    .
    Jacob Kane and Martha Kane Wayne are brother and sister. Jacob's mother was Jewish so why wouldn't Martha, having the same mother, also be Jewish? And if someone's mother is Jewish, her children are Jewish.
    So Martha, being Jewish, would make Bruce Jewish.

  8. #23
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    How did you come by this logic? Kate's maternal grandfather was the brother to Bruce's grandfather. Kate's grandfather married a Jewish woman who had Kate's mom. Making both the mother and Kate automatically Jewish as Jewish identity is passed down automatically through the mother. But this has nothing to do with Bruce. My understanding if you want to classify yourself as Jewish (because your dad's Jewish) religious authorities won't dismiss you. But this has to be a deliberate decision.
    […]
    The issue is about the definition of "being Jewish": according to the Judaism every person is Jewish if his mother is Jewish; it doesn't matter if the mother become Christians or if he don't see himself like a Jewish, he is considered Jewish.
    Anyway this don't change we are talking about the sex of the angels (even without a Jewish mother he can convert himself to the Jewish religion): Batman is about fight the crime, not about ethnicity or religion, so what is the sense of tell a story in which he decide to became Jewish?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    "part Jewish" is such a thing. A number of my non comic reading friends who generally like Batman are the same. Tom King is, too. Bruce's obviously not a religious person even though he encounters all sorts of supernatural things, but it's a nice and uncommon demographic quirk.
    There is such thing as part Jewish. I am part Jewish. My maternal grandmother's mother was an Ashkenazi Jew. Her father was from Romania, and her mother was from Latvia. I am 1/8 Ashkenazi Jewish.
    At 23andme, I am 9.1% Ashkenazi. At AncestryDNA, I am 11% European Jewish.
    Ashkenazi Jews are mainly a mix of Levantine and Mediterranean European peoples.
    Ashkenazi Jews are closely related to Sephardic Jews and other Jews as well as Italians, Greeks, and Sicilians.
    Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews seem to descend from Italian Jews which are those that descend mainly from Jews and Greco-Romans.
    Ashkenazi Jews are said to be descendants of bottleneck people of around 350 people from 600 to 800 years ago, and all people that are part Ashkenazi are at least 30th Cousins to each other. It was also found that any two Ashkenazi Jewish participants in the study shared about as much DNA as fourth or fifth cousins.

    My mother and I are part Jewish and grew up never knowing about it and just recently have connected with our Jewish roots.
    My mother grew up as a Roman Catholic. Her father's side is Cape Verdean, Madeiran, Puerto Rican, and Azorean.
    There is definitely a possibility of Sephardic Jewish ancestry somewhere in my maternal grandfather's family tree.
    My mother and I could have both Ashkenazi and Sephardic ancestry.
    I have a little Acadian ancestry on my Louisianan African American father's side, and one of my Acadian ancestors was Abraham Dugas (my 10th GGF once, 11th GGF once), who was an ancestor of most current living Cajuns/Acadians. Genetic testing revealed that his Y DNA haplogroup was J2a3 which makes some people suspect that he was Sephardic Jewish.
    I also found out that the Y DNA haplogroup of my maternal grandmother's father's patrilineal English ancestor William Walker (my 6th GGF) was J2a4h2.

    There is a man that is 100% Ashkenazi Jewish that has MyTrueAncestry Ancient Sample Breakdown that has Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites/Semites, and Philistines. There was strong Mediterranean European emphasis in his Ancient Sample Breakdown...Highly Roman. There are no ancient Mesopotamian samples available. I actually believe that Jews have some ancient Mesopotamian ancestry. Many of the Jews stayed in Babylon after Cyrus the Great allowed them to love. Babylon ended up being a major of Jewry into the Middle Ages. Many Babylonian Jews actually relocated to the Rhineland and joined with the Jews there.

    That same 100% Ashkenazi Jew don't like being thought of as white. He really doesn't look white (well..depends on how you define white with it being a social construct). He looks Middle Eastern. He readily admits that Ashkenazi Jews are genetically different from the Jews of ancient times and that they are mainly a mix of Levantine and Mediterranean European. This is him talking about Greco-Roman admixture in Ashkenazi Jews.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS_ED5Fll7o&t=1474s


    Links to genetic studies findings
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews
    https://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/N...00-IPArabs.pdf
    https://www.pnas.org/content/107/37/16222.full
    https://archive.is/20120709050812/ht...l.pgen.0020143
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835
    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/s...in-europe.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/09/s...-diaspora.html
    https://www.nature.com/articles/5201319
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5668307/
    https://web.archive.org/web/20071202...3026_Doron.pdf
    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/s...udy-finds.html
    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.prem...omen-1.5348602
    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-24442352
    https://www.nbcnews.com/science/most...nds-8C11358210
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3032072/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941333/
    http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudie...ce-inbreeding/
    http://www.biologiaevolutiva.org/dco.../Behar2010.pdf
    https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/humbiol_preprints/41/
    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3080861/
    Last edited by Starrius; 04-12-2020 at 01:14 AM.
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  10. #25
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Better question, does anyone in the current Bat office even know they made him Jewish?

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Better question, does anyone in the current Bat office even know they made him Jewish?
    I'm reasonably sure Tynion does, though he didn't begin it.
    Last edited by Caivu; 04-12-2020 at 08:15 AM.
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  12. #27
    Mighty Member Katana500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBarnhill View Post
    Me personally, I’m a huge stickler for what Bill Finger, a Jew himself, wants. He specifically wanted Bruce to have a heritage that suggests colonialism and power and giving him a WASP identity was very important in conveying that.
    Is the Wayne Family not Scottish descended. So technically speaking he wouln't be a WASP, since Scots aren't Anglo Saxon.
    Last edited by Katana500; 04-12-2020 at 09:17 AM.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I agree with those saying Bruce isn't the religious type. I imagine that Bruce doesn't straight up deny the existence of gods the same way Michael Holt does (to Holt they're just powerful/advanced aliens) but I honestly don't think Bruce would give a damn. In the DCU gods are real, and Batman probably has a plan to stop them if they ever attack Gotham.

    I definitely see him supporting some charity programs, and if his mother was Jewish then funding a synagogue or something in her name sounds like something he'd do (he likely also donates a lot to his father's old hospital too) but that's about as close to religious practice as the Bat gets.

    I have no issue with Bruce being Jewish or part-Jewish, but I don't think he'd care about it. Batman's true god is Justice.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #29
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    OP -

    I'll keep this short but sweet.

    No, IMO.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana500 View Post
    Is the Wayne Family not Scottish descended. So technically speaking he wouln't be a WASP, since Scots aren't Anglo Saxon.
    The Waynes are a family of Norse, French, Scottish, and English descent. The name Bruce is Scottish, surname Wayne is English. Don't know who's the Nordic one, but there's the Kane line.

    Edit:

    I remember now. The French man is a distant Wayne who fought in the Crusade. The Nordic part of the family influenced parts of the architectural style of fortified Wayne Manor post No Man's Land (though I don't remember if a Nordic member of the Wayne is an architect or not).

    This info was in a Batman encyclopedia published around the mid-2000s.

    Meanwhile, Van Derm was created after that. She might as well be Dutch, I haven't been able to find the info, but both Van Derm and Kane are new inclusion of the family.

    So the list that I mentioned before encompasses the whole Wayne family not necessarily related to Bruce's father, mother or gramps. That's another thing I misunderstood.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 04-13-2020 at 03:11 AM.

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