Should Bruce Wayne/Batman embrace being Jewish?

[Aahz]

Van Derm sounds more Dutch then French.

[Restingvoice]

Van Derm sounds more Dutch than French.

It does. Right. I remember now. The French man is a distant Wayne who fought in the Crusade. The Nordic part of the family influenced parts of the architectural style of fortified Wayne Manor post No Man's Land (though I don't remember if a Nordic member of the Wayne is an architect or not).

This info was in a Batman encyclopedia published around the mid-2000s.

Meanwhile, Van Derm was created after that. She might as well be Dutch, I haven't been able to find the info, but both Van Derm and Kane are new inclusion of the family.

So the list that I mentioned before encompasses the whole Wayne family not necessarily related to Bruce's father, mother or gramps. That's another thing I misunderstood.

[sunofdarkchild]

Anyone else remember the 'Berlin Batman,' Baruch Wayne? A Jewish man in Nazi Germany who became Batman to fight the Nazis.

[Timothy Hunter]

Anyone else remember the 'Berlin Batman,' Baruch Wayne? A Jewish man in Nazi Germany who became Batman to fight the Nazis.

Paul Pope in Batman Chronicles. Great stuff

[PurpleGlovez]

The Van Derms aren't new. To my recollection, Nathan van Derm, designer of Wayne Manor, is referenced in an issue of Swamp Thing in the 80s... and his grandchildren, who actually sold the Manor to the Waynes, are referenced in 90s materials that deal with Joshua and Solomon Wayne. Batman Secret Files, 1997 I believe.

I wish the "Batman is Jewish" meme would die. He's not Jewish. He just isn't. I don't know what else there is to say.

[ScottSloane]

The Waynes are a family of Norse, French, Scottish, and English descent. The name Bruce is Scottish, surname Wayne is English. Don't know who's the Nordic one, but there's the Kane line.

Edit:

I remember now. The French man is a distant Wayne who fought in the Crusade. The Nordic part of the family influenced parts of the architectural style of fortified Wayne Manor post No Man's Land (though I don't remember if a Nordic member of the Wayne is an architect or not).

This info was in a Batman encyclopedia published around the mid-2000s.

Meanwhile, Van Derm was created after that. She might as well be Dutch, I haven't been able to find the info, but both Van Derm and Kane are new inclusion of the family.

So the list that I mentioned before encompasses the whole Wayne family not necessarily related to Bruce's father, mother or gramps. That's another thing I misunderstood.

Haven’t they also specified that Bruce is a blood relative of “Mad” Anthony Wayne, who fought in the American Revolution and got tons of stuff named after him? (Which I guess has no bearing on this discussion, since it presumably has nothing to do with his mother’s side of the family; but if it also has that detail, I figured it might also mention other details.)

[Oberon]

Ah, so we go back to Bruce using a gun, then. Okay.



We don't actually know any of Kate's maternal grandparents; the only family on her mother's side we know of is Gabi's sister Linda. Roderick Kane was one of her paternal grandparents, and Jacob and Martha's father. Martha and Jacob are Jewish. Since Martha was, Bruce is, whether he's observant or not.

I've just started this thread, but I figured you would make a comment, Caivu. I did not remember any connection with the grandparents. My only canon says that Kate's father is Bruce's mother's *brother*. Though I've long debated separately that 1st cousin thing, by going back another generation, I didn't know of this if it is true.

[marhawkman]

My question would be "why would it matter?" It's not really an important aspect of the character.

[Oberon]

Yes, it doesn't seem. Even if Martha is considered Jewish and therefore Bruce, it doesn't mean either of them practiced it or not.

Another thing to consider is that some rich folks change their religious orientation over time, between generations. Jewish folks did change to Christian denominations but more likely the other way around. At any rate, this doesn't seem important to Bruce's character. But maybe it is?

[Jackalope89]

Yeah, this kind of reminds me of the "should Clark be Canadian?" thread in the Superman forum. Bruce is clearly not a practicing, well, anything. And only a few times is any hint given at all to Bruce having any religious beliefs. So, other than a throw away line of, "Bruce was also Jewish on his mother's side, but unlike Kate, didn't practice," what would even be the point?

If it were Diana (Wonder Woman), than it would change things, as being a polytheist is a major part of her character. But, since its Bruce, it really doesn't alter anything at this point.

[Caivu]

I wish the "Batman is Jewish" meme would die. He's not Jewish. He just isn't. I don't know what else there is to say.

It's not a meme, it's a fact. If Martha Wayne was Jewish, and she was, then Bruce also is. That's how it works. Neither of them have to practice at all for that to be true.

[Frontier]

It's not a meme, it's a fact. If Martha Wayne was Jewish, and she was, then Bruce also is. That's how it works. Neither of them have to practice at all for that to be true.

I guess it's kind of like Dick being Romani.

[Celgress]

It's not a meme, it's a fact. If Martha Wayne was Jewish, and she was, then Bruce also is. That's how it works. Neither of them have to practice at all for that to be true.

Things aren't facts if they are open to interpretation, such as social constructs of identity. I'm not a fan of this frankly narrowminded and semi-bigoted idea. If you don't identify as something other people have no right to label you as such regardless of why they think you are that thing. It reminds me of the infamous "One Drop" Rule from American history, or the notion that trans people aren't the gender they've gone through therapy (psychological, chemical, and sometimes surgeries) to become because so and so says they aren't by using such and such a standard.

[Caivu]

Things aren't facts if they are open to interpretation, such as social constructs of identity.

It's a fact that Martha Wayne was Jewish. It's a fact that Judaism is passed matrilineally, at least traditionally. And it's a fact that, at least in Rabbinic Judaism, someone who is Jewish, whether by birth or conversion, is Jewish forever.

[Celgress]

It's a fact that Martha Wayne was Jewish. It's a fact that Judaism is passed matrilineally, at least traditionally. And it's a fact that, at least in Rabbinic Judaism, someone who is Jewish, whether by birth or conversion, is Jewish forever.

It's a fact according to you, but social constructs only matter to those who embrace them. To me, and to Bruce in the comics, this means nothing so it isn't a fact but rather an idea of Jewish identity for those who embrace it. It can't be imposed upon those who don't embrace as to do so requires their consent. At best, one could say Bruce is biologically Jewish or "half-Jewish" but not actually Jewish as he does not see himself as such nor would others outside of the social construct bubble.