Should Bruce Wayne/Batman embrace being Jewish?

[Celgress]

No you didn't, because the way Judaism works isn't based on your opinion. Nor mine. I'm going by what the tenets (at least of the two largest denominations) say.



Non-practicing doesn't matter. Has nothing to do with it at all. Someone who's Jewish and never learns a thing about it is equally as Jewish as the most devout practitioner. Now, if Bruce was of, say, the Reform denomination and converted or became an atheist, that would be another matter.

My goodness, Bruce has NEVER identified as Jewish nor have others identified him as such in the comics. He doesn't want to be Jewish (as far as we know). Even if his parents had lived there is no evidence they would have raised him Jewish. He is NOT JEWISH regardless of what his mother was matrilineal descent be damned. This he is Jewish because his mother was Jewish argument is the same as the asinine "One Drop" Laws of the Deep South. Let it go, Batman is NOT JEWISH, nor has he been presented as such during the entirety of his eighty-plus year history, regardless of how much you want him to be.

Edit - I'm not going down this rabbit hole again. I have better things to do than relitigate this closed case. I will not post another post in here. I'm done with the thread.

[Caivu]

He is NOT JEWISH regardless of what his mother was matrilineal descent be damned. This he is Jewish because his mother was Jewish argument is the same as the asinine "One Drop" Laws of the Deep South.

Uh, wow, no. That's absolutely not the same thing, wtf?

Anyway, apart from that mess, matrilineal descent is literally how Orthodox, Rabbinic, and Reform Judaism work (Reform also accepts patrilineal descent, too), as do some others. You're literally arguing against a factual statement like it's a matter of opinion or something.

[Shadowcat]

As a Jew I need to know, are we replacing Arthur with an old, mouthy Jewish maid who loves to bitch Bruce out in Yiddish? You know the type, the one who could actually guilt trip Damien into doing what she wanted.

[Celgress]

Uh, wow, no. That's absolutely not the same thing, wtf?

Anyway, apart from that mess, matrilineal descent is literally how Orthodox, Rabbinic, and Reform Judaism work (Reform also accepts patrilineal descent, too), as do some others. You're literally arguing against a factual statement like it's a matter of opinion or something.

For anyone who wants to learn why this argument is fundamentally flawed, please see my previous posts in this thread.

Have a nice time everyone, Celgress out.

[Gotham citizen]

For anyone who wants to learn why this argument is fundamentally flawed, please see my previous posts in this thread.

Have a nice time everyone, Celgress out.

I think you chose the wrong example: the story of the German Jewish who became soldiers of the Wehrmacht during the Second World War is a better example: they were Jewish (some times totally Jewish), but they didn't see them like Jewish, they saw them like Germans, so they managed to obtain the status of pure Aryan race and then they started to faithful serve the Third Reich. The moral is: it doesn't matter what the parents are, a person will always be what he choose to be.

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[K. Jones]

Throwing this out there; don't specifically care about the deets of the topic, agree it's important that Batman is a WASP who is kind of using his wealth for good and to actually give back and make a difference, plus it plays into the origins of Gothic Romance which is a pretty decidedly anglosphere thing (Batman itself as a concept is like, while in the "pulps", definitely at the tail end, or not far removed, not removed at all, from Gothic Literature. Like, Dracula was written in 1897 and Batman hit in 1939. It's a 40 year difference permeated by the early Gothic Fiction writers, but which almost fluidly factors in the first forays of Film (like for instance, Zorro adaptations and The Man Who Laughs), which also factors in the Crime Novel and Film Noir, and which literally distills itself into Batman, the ur-example of that kind of pop culture.

So yeah, I don't care. If somebody wants to note the preponderance of Jews who are actual creators of "Batman" and have him throw a bone in that direction, they can. As long as it doesn't supersede the existing canon of his just utter, utter East Coast as WASP as it can possibly get origins. But I don't think it has anything to do with how he's related to Kate as that detail of her life was carefully considered and written into her story for her and really has nothing to do with Batman. I certainly think it'd be lovely if he did things like, sending a Hannakuh card to Kate every year. And I mean, it's not stepping on anyone's toes if one of the "wow, this raises timeline questions!" Christmas issues any given year has him light a menorah. I mean we rocked a menorah in my very Catholic parental household. Maybe with a little less of the ritual, but the symbolism was still respected.

Where was I going?

Oh, Batman doesn't gotta be. I mean there's 80 years worth of Christmas specials and Christmas covers. Just like how Superman only has to be subtextually Jewish because the Kents are probably Methodists and the Els religion is probably listed under "SCIENCE".

Wait no ... where was I going?

Oh right ... what the hell is Bruce and Kate's family relationship specifically? I was under the impression they were first cousins. When she was first introduced and the connection was implemented I didn't like the notion of them being first cousins and wanted to settle on maybe second, but I'm not sure I ever followed up on it. I thought Jacob was Martha's little brother these days. I'd vastly prefer it to be the case that Jacob is Martha's cousin. Makes everything just that smidge more credible and explains how your various Bette and whoever else fit in.

[Restingvoice]

Oh right ... what the hell is Bruce and Kate's family relationship specifically? I was under the impression they were first cousins. When she was first introduced and the connection was implemented I didn't like the notion of them being first cousins and wanted to settle on maybe second, but I'm not sure I ever followed up on it. I thought Jacob was Martha's little brother these days. I'd vastly prefer it to be the case that Jacob is Martha's cousin. Makes everything just that smidge more credible and explains how your various Bette and whoever else fit in.

Martha has three known brothers, Philip, Nathan, and Jacob
Philip's dead, killed by the Red Hood Gang
Nathan married Kathy then died
Jacob is Kate's father

There should be another one of Martha's sibling that's Bette's parents, but that part was never elaborated

[PurpleGlovez]

So, I just finished reading every Batwoman run and explicit references to her Jewish heritage are surprisingly few and far between. Both Gabi and Catherine are Jewish, and Jacob mentions not going to synagogue in a couple years but there is no indication whatsoever that he is Jewish by birth. Also there is a Star of David on Gabi's tombstone.

It sure as heck seems to me that Kate is Jewish through her mother, not her father. As far as I can tell there is no evidence whatsoever that the greater Kane family is Jewish.

Also, Tynion's Detective Comics referenced Kane Manor as " the childhood home of Nathan, Phillip, Jacob, and Martha Kane," implying that there were only four children. Plus, Bette attends Phillip's funeral in the Batwoman Zero Year tie-in and it seems quite clear that she is not mourning her father. Thus, I do not believe she is Kate's first cousin.

However Kate does have an "Aunt Linda" according to Williams' run, I think we can assume this is Bette's mother.

[Caivu]

It sure as heck seems to me that Kate is Jewish through her mother, not her father. As far as I can tell there is no evidence whatsoever that the greater Kane family is Jewish.

She wouldn't be Jewish through Jacob anyway, because that's not how it works (or at least doesn't have to in the Reform denomination, which she and Beth seem to have been raised in). The menorah at Martha's funeral is the evidence that the Kane family is Jewish, because why else would it be there? I'll grant that that's not a lot, but all the alternative explanations are far too convoluted or nonsensical to be worth considering.

However Kate does have an "Aunt Linda" according to Williams' run, I think we can assume this is Bette's mother.

Linda is Gabi's sister. Bette didn't attend Gabi and Beth's funeral, and given she was so young, it'd would be odd if she wasn't there but her mom was.

[Tsukiakari1203]

I always assumed Bette, Kate, and Bruce were first cousins. Are they not?

[PurpleGlovez]

It's pretty common for small children not to attend funerals, actually. Also, source on Linda being Gabi's sister?

I don't know, maybe the menorah was there as a token for the family members and guests in attendance who were Jewish, not necessarily to signify Martha herself was. If Martha is Jewish I just think it's weird that it's never explicitly come up in anything, ever.

Conversely, many people have pointed out the numerous comics and storylines which deal with Bruce's Protestant and sometimes Catholic ancestry as well as Thomas Wayne's Christianity. It's just clear to me that being Jewish has absolutely no bearing on Bruce's identity whatsoever. It is clearly not an intended part of the character's backstory. Thus, I don't think it's a good idea to make him Jewish, and I feel quite safe saying that he simply is not Jewish.

Plus, remember that Kate being Bruce's cousin was a late retcon anyway. Rucka and Williams explicitly had them unrelated.

[Vakanai]

I think this question is under the headline of "doesn't matter." If Bruce is Jewish through the maternal line - so what? He's non-practicing, doesn't consider himself Jewish, never has it come up, and likely would never have it come up. If it's true at all then all it amounts to is the tiniest little footnote ever. It doesn't matter. It would change nothing, it would never be visible, because it is in no way important to Bruce in any way. It'd be like retconning Thomas to be Buddhist, outside of a small rare weird flashback how would it matter?

[Caivu]

It's pretty common for small children not to attend funerals, actually. Also, source on Linda being Gabi's sister?

Bette would've been plenty old enough to go to a funeral, anywhere from about 6 to 9. That's why I question Linda being her mother if Bette wasn't at the funeral; it's not like Bette was a toddler. Kate's narration about Aunt Linda also implies they were close, which is more likely in the case of a parent's sibling being the aunt or uncle. It's a deduction, but one that's slightly more supported, I think.

I don't know, maybe the menorah was there as a token for the family members and guests in attendance who were Jewish, not necessarily to signify Martha herself was.

Why would they have done that, though? That doesn't make sense. I've never heard of a funeral arrangement of any kind that's only to benefit family and friends. Those are to celebrate the deceased, not to mark anything about those in attendance.

Conversely, many people have pointed out the numerous comics and storylines which deal with Bruce's Protestant and sometimes Catholic ancestry as well as Thomas Wayne's Christianity. It's just clear to me that being Jewish has absolutely no bearing on Bruce's identity whatsoever. It is clearly not an intended part of the character's backstory.

I mean... Kate Kane being his cousin wasn't originally intended either, but she is. Heck, originally Bruce having an aversion to guns wasn't part of his backstory; look at him now. Things change. Bruce being raised Christian also doesn't contradict him being Jewish at all.

If Martha is Jewish I just think it's weird that it's never explicitly come up in anything, ever.

Plus, remember that Kate being Bruce's cousin was a late retcon anyway. Rucka and Williams explicitly had them unrelated.

These are related to the above (I don't think the non-relation was explicit, as in that it was ever directly said they weren't related, but eh). Them being cousins is a relatively recent development, and it's only really been touched on once or twice since, so it shouldn't be a surprise or an issue that the matter has barely come up (and that's presuming the writers realize what such a connection means in the first place). But it has, and that's the point.

[PurpleGlovez]

In the zero issue that preceded the 2011 Batwoman series, as he is spying on Kate while she is visiting their graves, Bruce mentions what happened to Beth and Gabi as if he was completely detached to it and just learned of it. He poses as a homeless man and decides Jacob Kane "must not be too bad" because he gave him some spare change. It's clear he had no connection or relation to Kate and her family at that point.

As for the Linda thing we literally have nothing to go on whatsoever regarding her exact relation to Kate, there is NOTHING to suggest she is Gabi's sister. Although we know Bette's mother is alive as Jacob says she is outside the hospital room after Bette was attacked by the Hook.

And it doesn't matter if she was a toddler or adolescent, there are a million legit reasons for a kid not to be at a funeral.

Anyway, Bruce Wayne is not Jewish.

[Caivu]

In the zero issue that preceded the 2011 Batwoman series, as he is spying on Kate while she is visiting their graves, Bruce mentions what happened to Beth and Gabi as if he was completely detached to it and just learned of it. He poses as a homeless man and decides Jacob Kane "must not be too bad" because he gave him some spare change. It's clear he had no connection or relation to Kate and her family at that point.

Of course; that hadn't been established yet. But it has been now, and we know that issue is still canon and wasn't retconned away with Flashpoint. So the obvious way to explain that issue is that he's being deliberately detached so as not to influence his investigation with his own familial bias. Hardly unreasonable.

As for the Linda thing we literally have nothing to go on whatsoever regarding her exact relation to Kate, there is NOTHING to suggest she is Gabi's sister.

And there's the exact same amount of evidence to say she's Bette's mom.

Anyway, Bruce Wayne is not Jewish.

Yes, he is. Martha was, and we know she was because a menorah being present at her funeral only makes sense if it's there for her. Since Martha is, therefore Bruce is, due to matrilineal descent.

What's not clicking about this? It seems pretty straightforward.