Overdrive and Gotham High: Taking Bruce Back To School

[Vakanai]

DC likes to find the most difficult path don't they?

Gotham Academy already established that Bruce attended briefly so why not have that be the setting for the school shenanigans?

It's only the most difficult path if they want you to read these books - but they don't. That's why what the books have established for where Bruce attended school doesn't matter - that's all in continuity, a continuity that we hardcore fans may know, but not the demographic of these books. Comic book fans are largely an older and aging demographic, DC wants to attract new and younger demographics to sustain them once many of their current fans start slowly dying off of old age (not calling anyone here old, much less near death, just stating some broad facts). So to attract new readers they want to try new things, new plots, genres, styles, new continuities, and so on. A whole Elseworlds type multiverse focused on the sorts of stories teens and preteens read and watch. So we get things like teen Bruce and even teen Batman, Bruce going to school and having school life drama with Selina and Joker. Stuff that isn't in continuity, isn't like the stuff we know, are used to, or want, but might draw in a crowd DC isn't currently drawing in.

Now whether or not they are right or succeed is a different argument, but it's certainly not the most difficult path in trying to expand their audience - that path would be to not even try and do nothing different.


By the way, not singling you out or anything, just saw a way to kind of come in with this thought. A lot of people think if they aren't interested or it's too different from what they're used to it has no value, but from a different perspective it makes sense. DC already has our dollars and is continuing to make books we will buy, this is just an attempt to get some different people's money.

[Vakanai]

Gotham High: This take of the Caped Crusader by Melissa de la Cruz is more Gossip Girls with a tinge of Rich, Crazy Asians as described by the author herself. Even though she admits not being familiar with the Batman mythos, she creates a new world from the ground up by revising the characters, not only through ethnicity, but also making them either high schoolers or faculty (Jim Gordon and Harvey Bullock) or even making Alfred related to Bruce. This doesn’t try to turn Bruce into Batman at the end of the story, and is more focused on Selina/Catwoman. But this story is a interesting take on Bruce as a detective and really uses the new idea of Bruce’s being a Chinese American and exploring it through a new cultural lens.

Thanks, I almost forgot about that one. I think both are good takes on the character and there are a lot of interesting takes in that subject. I don’t think it’s them trying to be relevant, but trying to explore them in new ways to reach to different demographics or audiences. Which is what makes both interesting reads.

Could be wrong, but isn't he also part Asian in Nightwalker? If that's something that gets pushed more in the YA fiction, the some reboots down the line, say 20 years, Bruce might wind up as part Asian in the future main continuity. Assuming a main ongoing continuity still exists in 20 years. Certainly times are changing, and it is fascinating to imagine what these characters will be like further down the future.

[Vakanai]

I agree that the characters should be similar to the main comics world. That is the world DC's trying to pull fans into.
Present them as they are. True to their Mythos.

Not necessarily - it's no question that the direct market, comic book shop method won't be viable forever, and the future of the monthly floppy isn't as permanent as some would like to believe. The fact is when this demographic really comes of age and comprises more if not most of the market (DC must have their fingers crossed) the ongoing forever continuity and mythos might not be the big thing it is today. OGNs like this might be the main product in superhero fiction. So, there may not be a need or desire to draw them into the main continuity - the main continuity might be what slowly goes and fades away over the next 30-to-50 years, with these kinds of books slowly becoming the more mainstream books.


No guarantees, but a thought. We don't know what the future of DC or the industry will be.

[dietrich]

Not necessarily - it's no question that the direct market, comic book shop method won't be viable forever, and the future of the monthly floppy isn't as permanent as some would like to believe. The fact is when this demographic really comes of age and comprises more if not most of the market (DC must have their fingers crossed) the ongoing forever continuity and mythos might not be the big thing it is today. OGNs like this might be the main product in superhero fiction. So, there may not be a need or desire to draw them into the main continuity - the main continuity might be what slowly goes and fades away over the next 30-to-50 years, with these kinds of books slowly becoming the more mainstream books.


No guarantees, but a thought. We don't know what the future of DC or the industry will be.

I see your point but what about the generation that's even younger than the YA.
DCSHG
JL Action
Once Upon a Crime

Media targeted at much Younger Audience still present something truer to the main canon.
Other titles targeted at YA's like Dear JL, Over Drive are more in line with current continuity.

The message is mixed and confusing. Even if the main comics continuity doesn't matter these YA books and media still present conflicting pictures of the world and who the characters are.

I feel that Gotham High is an outlier and a mistake that slipped past unchecked.

[Vakanai]

I see your point but what about the generation that's even younger than the YA.
DCSHG
JL Action
Once Upon a Crime

Media targeted at much Younger Audience still present something truer to the main canon.
Other titles targeted at YA's like Dear JL, Over Drive are more in line with current continuity.

The message is mixed and confusing. Even if the main comics continuity doesn't matter these YA books and media still present conflicting pictures of the world and who the characters are.

I feel that Gotham High is an outlier and a mistake that slipped past unchecked.

That might be the problem - people think there's a message. There isn't. It isn't mixed, it isn't confusing, it just doesn't exist. Instead of a message, there's product. And yes, some product is more true to canon, closer to the stuff in the regular comic books. Gotham High is an outlier - but it is not a mistake. Even if it slips past mostly unchecked, it will make profit. It won't be a wasted venture. Even if it is never returned to, if it makes profit it won't be considered a mistake.

Both YA and children's lines present something closer and more true to canon, and both have and will have outliers like Gotham High - But! But we also have to learn these outliers, these much more different takes, will happen, will happen more often, and that's okay. There's a place for them. Most will be familiar, but not all will be or have to be. Things are going to get a bit more Elseworldy going forward. Most things will be more what we want or expect, but there will be things like Gotham High, there will be outliers. That's not a mistake, that's a planned calculation.

Bottom line is, yeah sure most of it won't be Gotham High, most will be "truer" to our vision of the characters. But there will be radical re-imaginings targeting some people who want to check out something not in line with our vision. That's not a mistake on DC's part, that's not bad messaging, that's just good business.

Edit: Just thought of this, look at Black Label - Most things will be like Harleen, close to our normal continuity. But we will get the occasional Joker/Harley Criminal Sanity which isn't. But it targets an audience who likes true crime stuff, and that's neat.

[Tzigone]

Gotham High: This take of the Caped Crusader by Melissa de la Cruz is more Gossip Girls with a tinge of Rich, Crazy Asians as described by the author herself. Even though she admits not being familiar with the Batman mythos, she creates a new world from the ground up by revising the characters, not only through ethnicity, but also making them either high schoolers or faculty (Jim Gordon and Harvey Bullock) or even making Alfred related to Bruce. This doesn’t try to turn Bruce into Batman at the end of the story, and is more focused on Selina/Catwoman. But this story is a interesting take on Bruce as a detective and really uses the new idea of Bruce’s being a Chinese American and exploring it through a new cultural lens.


So what are your guys takes on these two different YA novel, and how would you guys explore Batman if another Young Adult novel comes along. Plus one more question: what are your favorite take on Bruce’s adolescence/teenage years?

I know I'm not the target audience. I accept that. But Gotham High in particular - I see the description and it seems like there is no reason for it to be Batman/young Bruce Wayne. It reads like original characters with Bat-names slapped on them. I would say "why not just make original characters" but I know the business perspective of IPs is a thing.

I'd honestly be more likely to read it if it was an original character teen Chinese American detective. But like I said, not target audience.

I don't think I've ever read very much with Bruce's teen years. Just him as Robin (which I wasn't a fan of). I admit I'm not particularly interested in more than a one-shot. For me, I like Alfred coming in later, and that leaves no cast member of today to be there, just people retconned into his past. Or his family (who'd probably end up evil). I wouldn't want something in the tone of Superboy - just Superman transplanted earlier. Learning chemistry and criminal investigation could be interesting, I suppose. Maybe him interested in more legal means of pursuing justice at that time. If a self-contained mini, he could realize the corruption or legal red tape at the end. With open-ended stories, I think they'd end up bringing in everyone way too early or hamster-wheeling where nothing really changes.

[Vakanai]

I know I'm not the target audience. I accept that. But Gotham High in particular - I see the description and it seems like there is no reason for it to be Batman/young Bruce Wayne. It reads like original characters with Bat-names slapped on them. I would say "why not just make original characters" but I know the business perspective of IPs is a thing.

I'd honestly be more likely to read it if it was an original character teen Chinese American detective. But like I said, not target audience.

I don't think I've ever read very much with Bruce's teen years. Just him as Robin (which I wasn't a fan of). I admit I'm not particularly interested in more than a one-shot. For me, I like Alfred coming in later, and that leaves no cast member of today to be there, just people retconned into his past. Or his family (who'd probably end up evil). I wouldn't want something in the tone of Superboy - just Superman transplanted earlier. Learning chemistry and criminal investigation could be interesting, I suppose. Maybe him interested in more legal means of pursuing justice at that time. If a self-contained mini, he could realize the corruption or legal red tape at the end. With open-ended stories, I think they'd end up bringing in everyone way too early or hamster-wheeling where nothing really changes.

(Sorry I seem to be posting a lot in this thread today.)
I think there's kind of a problem with this point: It reads like original characters with Bat-names slapped on them - as fans we tend to look at these characters fairly narrowly, and if writers or whoever stray to far we ask, Why not just make original characters at that point? Which while an understandable point, is also a bit restricting. Why not instead ask, how does taking these sorts of character concepts and looking at them through the lenses of classic characters change things? Why do we always think in terms of "slapping" IP names on these things, instead of how instead these things may be impacted or influenced by these IPs/brands/names? The fact that this is being made as a Batman title means it will be different than if it wasn't. Like anyone is just going to slap the word Batman on it and be done. It'll be different sure, but it'll still be some sort of take, some sort if look, on Batman.

I don't know if I illustrated my point eloquently, just kind of feel like rebelling against the fandom always looking at things this jaded kind of way. I like the idea of doing vastly different things with the character, and rather than ask why not an original character I prefer to ask how this being "the" character will change things up.


Edit: Also on the point of open-ended stories, this won't be. Part of the appeal of this YA and kids stuff is you know there's no hamster wheel spinning forever, these things are self contained, with maybe a few sequels planned.

[Tzigone]

The open-ened story bit was about stories about Bruce's adolescence in general, not these. Sorry for lack of clarification.

Maybe I am too narrow, but when it's Jim Gordon as a teacher, etc., I just don't see enough resemblance to the character in the comics to call it the same character. To me, this very fanfic-like. Like, when I watched Avatar: The Last Airbender, there were quite a few "the characters in a normal American high school" fics. Never seemed to be much point to that to me (though I guess it could be taken as indicative of demand). Especially when the author acknowledges not being that familiar with the source material.

[Aahz]

So to attract new readers they want to try new things, new plots, genres, styles, new continuities, and so on.

But I think especially if want to bring in new readers you should stay, somewhat close to the core of the character, you can do some changes, but nothing really radical, otherwise how do you ant to get the readers to keep reading other books about that character.

[kjn]

But I think especially if want to bring in new readers you should stay, somewhat close to the core of the character, you can do some changes, but nothing really radical, otherwise how do you ant to get the readers to keep reading other books about that character.

But then the question gets to be what the core is.

I haven't read the Batman YA books, but the discussion about The Oracle Code was interesting in that regard. I really think they got what I perceived as the core of Babs-as-Oracle: she was disabled, she was inquisitive, she wanted to help people, she wanted to solve things and manage information, she was determined. But others felt that the book was basically an original character with the label "Barbara Gordon" applied.

I'm not sure why those other people reacted to the book that way, but they did. I really hope it's not a demand that the Oracle origin story must be tied to TKJ, because that would suck.

[Aahz]

I haven't read the Batman YA books, but the discussion about The Oracle Code was interesting in that regard. I really think they got what I perceived as the core of Babs-as-Oracle: she was disabled, she was inquisitive, she wanted to help people, she wanted to solve things and manage information, she was determined. But others felt that the book was basically an original character with the label "Barbara Gordon" applied.

To me she and her father both felt off, some how there "voices" were wrong, but I'm not sure why.

[kjn]

To me she and her father both felt off, some how there "voices" were wrong, but I'm not sure why.

Yeah, that's one tricky thing. Especially when writing a character we normally see or encounter as adult, but now we see them as adolescents, and often without some formative experiences.

But I think it's a good thing for us as fans to reflect on why we dislike (or like) different takes on a character.

[Frontier]

Could be wrong, but isn't he also part Asian in Nightwalker? If that's something that gets pushed more in the YA fiction, the some reboots down the line, say 20 years, Bruce might wind up as part Asian in the future main continuity. Assuming a main ongoing continuity still exists in 20 years. Certainly times are changing, and it is fascinating to imagine what these characters will be like further down the future.

I don't think he was. He seemed pretty clearly white in that book.

[Vakanai]

The open-ened story bit was about stories about Bruce's adolescence in general, not these. Sorry for lack of clarification.

Maybe I am too narrow, but when it's Jim Gordon as a teacher, etc., I just don't see enough resemblance to the character in the comics to call it the same character. To me, this very fanfic-like. Like, when I watched Avatar: The Last Airbender, there were quite a few "the characters in a normal American high school" fics. Never seemed to be much point to that to me (though I guess it could be taken as indicative of demand). Especially when the author acknowledges not being that familiar with the source material.

It's a reimagining of these characters in high school. Not a "when the characters you know went to high school" flashback, but a reimagining of them in a YA High School genre setting. There's a difference, and yes it's going to feel a bit like a fanfic, but so does Superhero Girls, which also (at least the original version) had characters who weren't teachers be teachers. Like Amanda Waller being a principal in that is different than Gordon being one here.

Again, the conceit isn't "What were these characters like in high school?" but rather "let's imagine them and cast them as characters in modern YA High School genre fiction." And that's not a bad idea. It's no different than imagining Superman as a commie, Batman in Victorian era, or Joker as a mentally ill man in early 1980s New York. The difference is we usually don't read that kind of story. We may know we're not the target audience, but we say that about a lot of fiction not aimed at us we still read and enjoy. Difference is we're even further removed from the target audience than usual (let's be honest, we have more shared common interests with your basic elementary school kid than your average moody hormonal teenager).

But I think especially if want to bring in new readers you should stay, somewhat close to the core of the character, you can do some changes, but nothing really radical, otherwise how do you ant to get the readers to keep reading other books about that character.

But you're assuming that the best or only method to expand readership is to draw them into the regular stuff, and that's not true. There are people who will never be drawn into the normal superhero comic books - but they might be drawn into this take. There are people who will be drawn into the normal DC stuff anyways, but they still want to read something different as well and this might interest them. Plus this is just one book, like has been said an outlier, most books will be similar enough to the mainstream takes to draw readers in. They don't all need to do the same job.

I'm not trying to get anyone to read this book (although I plan to eventually, although Overdrive, Nightwalker, and the Catwoman story is higher up on my To Read List), it's just I see outliers as a good thing. They don't always draw in new readers, but they draw in a different crowd for just that one book. They give us variety and make us think about what these characters have to be or can be a bit differently. From a business perspective they offer a different audience and revenue source than you usually get, for us fans they offer us something unique and different to check out than we otherwise might, if we're interested.

Doesn't have to draw in more comic book readers to be worthwhile. Just has to find a audience.

I don't think he was. He seemed pretty clearly white in that book.

Could have sworn I read an interview for the original novel where that was said, but I could be remembering something different I suppose...

[witchboy]

Some of the more controversial head line grabbing changes don't bother me, but it feels like there's other changes that lose what makes Batman who is he.
Like Alfred being gay doesn't really make much difference, but making Alfred his uncle completely changes their dynamic.
Bruce being Chinese in an Elseworld is fine with me, but him being a newcomer to Gotham takes away the reasons for his attachment to the city.
This doesn't sound like Batman to me. I am waiting to see more from it before I buy it, but I'm not feeling optimistic for it.