Overdrive and Gotham High: Taking Bruce Back To School

[Aahz]

But you're assuming that the best or only method to expand readership is to draw them into the regular stuff, and that's not true. There are people who will never be drawn into the normal superhero comic books - but they might be drawn into this take.

But then why use a superhero IP?

If DC wants to do comics for readers that are not interested in superhero they could really do new stuff, or bring back their non Superhero IPs (I'm pretty sure there was time when they were publishing Romance Comics and similar stuff).

[Gotham citizen]

[…]
But you're assuming that the best or only method to expand readership is to draw them into the regular stuff, and that's not true. There are people who will never be drawn into the normal superhero comic books - but they might be drawn into this take. There are people who will be drawn into the normal DC stuff anyways, but they still want to read something different as well and this might interest them.
[…]

I am afraid not: Batman and all other "brands" of the franchise (like Gotham, Joker, Catwoman…) are extremely well know by everybody, so using one of those "brands" will have the effect to move away from the book the readers who aren't interested in anything related to Batman; even if the book is conceived exactly to be read by them. If DC want reach new readers, they must create brand new franchises or resurrect the old franchises (in the past DC published also horror, romance, western, fantasy, war comics) like Aahz suggested.

[thwhtGuardian]

These have been selling incredibly well in the book market so I'm pretty sure any and all criticism of them presented here is moot.

[dietrich]

These have been selling incredibly well in the book market so I'm pretty sure any and all criticism of them presented here is moot.

It isn't necessarily moot. Ian Wayne sold really well but I managed to avoid wasting money on it thanks to fan reviews. I borrowed [out of curiosity] rather than buy on day as I normally would any and all Damian Wayne related material.

If the criticism's here is helpful to even one fan then it isn't moot.
This is n't a dc focus group and I'm sharing my opinion because the thread asked for it.

[Aahz]

These have been selling incredibly well in the book market so I'm pretty sure any and all criticism of them presented here is moot.

I'm not sure if that really is the case with all these books, some where said to have been really big successes, but we don't really know how the others did, and there reason they gave why they reduced the amount they put out sounded to me like some might not have done that well.

If you look at the bestseller list at comixology Gotham High is not even in top 100, despite the lack of new comics in the last weeks.

[kjn]

I'm not sure if that really is the case with all these books, some where said to have been really big successes, but we don't really know how the others did, and there reason they gave why they reduced the amount they put out sounded to me like some might not have done that well.

If you look at the bestseller list at comixology Gotham High is not even in top 100, despite the lack of new comics in the last weeks.

Or the success of several of its titles is the office politics reason why it's being nerfed.

When it comes to the Ink and Zoom lines, Comixology or the Diamond numbers aren't where it's at. It's Amazon, the NY Times bestseller list, and Bookscan numbers.

[Aahz]

It's Amazon, the NY Times bestseller list, and Bookscan numbers.

I don't think that Amazon is a usable metric, they put the books in relatively random categories, and sofar I couldn't find any information about how they actually compute their numbers (= how weight current sales against older sales), and on top of that they are mixing digital sales with physical ones ...


EDIT: Based on this it seems that Amazon to really strongly weight very recent sales, which makes it really hard to compare the ranking of new books with books that have been already out for some time.

[Aahz]

Can somebody tell me which of the DC YA books made it on the NY Times bestseller list?

Somehow I can't really look up all the month of the last year on that list. And in the month I can see only Raven made the list, and it got only a place #15 (10 places behind a Watchman reprint).

[kjn]

Amazon rankings shouldn't be overestimated (like a lot of self-publishers do), but they can be useful, and it's possible to split up the digital and paper sales.

Raven made the NY Times bestseller list, and so did Diana: Princess of the Amazons.

[Aahz]

Amazon rankings shouldn't be overestimated (like a lot of self-publishers do), but they can be useful, and it's possible to split up the digital and paper sales.

But if Gotham High can't get to number one there that shortly after being published vs. books that have been out much longer, that doesn't look that successful to me.

Raven made the NY Times bestseller list, and so did Diana: Princess of the Amazons.

Ok that would still leave a lot of books that might not have done that well.

[Vakanai]

But then why use a superhero IP?

If DC wants to do comics for readers that are not interested in superhero they could really do new stuff, or bring back their non Superhero IPs (I'm pretty sure there was time when they were publishing Romance Comics and similar stuff).

Two reasons. First, it's still superhero stuff, it might not just be only superhero stuff. Sorry if I wasn't clear before, but I meant that it's probably two genres, superhero and YA High School genre. You can attract a lot of people by mixing things. Or at least I'm assuming it'll fit the two genres - remember, I haven't read it, so I'm mostly guessing. But yeah, you can attract a new reader if you mix up and play with genres a bit. Also remember that wasn't the only reason I said this sort of book is a good idea every now and then.

And second - Do you really think DC/WB/AT&T either knows or cares about those romance IPs that haven't been used in literal decades even exists? The last time DC published any of them, I probably wasn't even born yet.

I am afraid not: Batman and all other "brands" of the franchise (like Gotham, Joker, Catwoman…) are extremely well know by everybody, so using one of those "brands" will have the effect to move away from the book the readers who aren't interested in anything related to Batman; even if the book is conceived exactly to be read by them. If DC want reach new readers, they must create brand new franchises or resurrect the old franchises (in the past DC published also horror, romance, western, fantasy, war comics) like Aahz suggested.

Maybe, maybe not. We keep talking like this one title is somehow indicative of DC's plans or strategies, but it's an outlier. You don't need to weigh every conceivable way of expanding readership, you don't need to have egghead discussions on proper use of branding, the point of outliers is to throw out a few crazy experiments and see what happens.

We're taking this too seriously, all this needed was a) a good enough pitch that whoever greenlights these things thought it'd work and b) to make enough profit to not be deemed a failure. That's it. There's a ton of books to draw in new readers in the way we fans want to draw them in, and yet we're zeroing in on just one that doesn't quite fit our expectations. Are we really that serious that we can't let the occasional off the wall experimental outlier occur?

It isn't necessarily moot. Ian Wayne sold really well but I managed to avoid wasting money on it thanks to fan reviews. I borrowed [out of curiosity] rather than buy on day as I normally would any and all Damian Wayne related material.

If the criticism's here is helpful to even one fan then it isn't moot.
This is n't a dc focus group and I'm sharing my opinion because the thread asked for it.

The problem with what you're saying is though that from what I can tell a lot of us are criticizing this book while I don't think any of us have read this book yet?

Has there been an actual review of the book here? We've been arguing whether a book like this should ever be allowed to exist as opposed to just books we think are better suited for some arbitrary "get them to one day read the books we read" goal. The fact that DC's goal is just make more money and not "every single title most conform to ensuring that these readers grow up to read our titles", it is a little moot. I doubt they're suddenly going to one day say, "No odd little outliers shall ever slip through again!"

But if Gotham High can't get to number one there that shortly after being published vs. books that have been out much longer, that doesn't look that successful to me.

But does it have to reach number one to be considered a success? How many titles does DC continue to publish that never gets anywhere near that? All that really counts for whether something is a success is, did it find enough of an audience to make profit? And I'm genuinely curious, has DC reached profit on this book?

[Aahz]

But does it have to reach number one to be considered a success? How many titles does DC continue to publish that never gets anywhere near that? All that really counts for whether something is a success is, did it find enough of an audience to make profit? And I'm genuinely curious, has DC reached profit on this book?

If you look at the article I linked you see that sales from just a few days ago don't do much for the Amazon ranking.

If we assume that the Graphic novels have the highest sales close to to their publishing date, a newly published book should not have a big problem to get a higher spot then books that are already a few month out.

[Vakanai]

If you look at the article I linked you see that sales from just a few days ago don't do much for the Amazon ranking.

If we assume that the Graphic novels have the highest sales close to to their publishing date, a newly published book should not have a big problem to get a higher spot then books that are already a few month out.

That's not really what I asked - does it look like, for however much it cost to make and publish, that DC will see a return on that investment?

[Gotham citizen]

[…]
Maybe, maybe not. We keep talking like this one title is somehow indicative of DC's plans or strategies, but it's an outlier. You don't need to weigh every conceivable way of expanding readership, you don't need to have egghead discussions on proper use of branding, the point of outliers is to throw out a few crazy experiments and see what happens.
[…]

My fear is that the world is full of industries dead because of few crazy experiments went wrong, because they didn't think enough about what they were doing and how.

[…]
We're taking this too seriously, all this needed was a) a good enough pitch that whoever greenlights these things thought it'd work and b) to make enough profit to not be deemed a failure. That's it. There's a ton of books to draw in new readers in the way we fans want to draw them in, and yet we're zeroing in on just one that doesn't quite fit our expectations. Are we really that serious that we can't let the occasional off the wall experimental outlier occur?
[…]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see anybody criticize the idea to do some "exceptional outlier" and neither they are criticizing these books because they were successful (like it was said), what the people are criticizing is how these books are been written, how the plot was developed, how the characters were described and doing that they are also explaining the reasons behind their critics. Why? Because there is nothing wrong in doing these experiments (the success of the TV shows Smallville and Gotham proves that), but they must be well done and evidently there are various readers who think some of these experiments could have been done better.

That's not really what I asked - does it look like, for however much it cost to make and publish, that DC will see a return on that investment?

If I'm not wrong usually they cut a book when it sell less than 8,000 copies/monthly (more or less), because it is no more profitable.

[skyvolt2000]

That's not really what I asked - does it look like, for however much it cost to make and publish, that DC will see a return on that investment?

It's a book for KIDS. It's a Batman book. With a well known writer (at least to most folks).

It WILL see a return in its investment no matter how many folks scream it's an offensive abomination to them.

Libraries and schools will be ordering copies. As will Barnes & Nobles, Wal-Mart & Target.

Libraries and schools can or will get a different copy. They tend to be hardcover that you will only see outside of those places if they end up at a Half Price books or used book store.

I know Ms Marvel, Coates Black Panther, IDW's Star Trek and Power Pack had library editions. Hardcover versions exclusive to the libraries.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see anybody criticize the idea to do some "exceptional outlier" and neither they are criticizing these books because they were successful (like it was said), what the people are criticizing is how these books are been written, how the plot was developed, how the characters were described and doing that they are also explaining the reasons behind their critics. Why? Because there is nothing wrong in doing these experiments (the success of the TV shows Smallville and Gotham proves that), but they must be well done and evidently there are various readers who think some of these experiments could have been done better.

This books was attacked before it came out.

Lead by the same trolls who HATE DC & Marvel books that dare feature someone not straight white and male as the lead.
Folks who have not touched a DC or Marvel book in decades.
Folks who are trying to use this book as a weapon to fire the flames of racism.
Folks who are using this book to hype up their inferior stuff.
Folks who don't give a BLEEP about how good or bad the book may be-they hate the book existence.

Folks who ONLY see Asian Bruce, Latino Selina, Gay Alfred and a black Dick Grayson-make all these folks white and you don't hear a PEEP about this book.
They will be the same folks ROASTING the Aqualad book led by folks NASTIER than the ones we have seen.

Now criticism from those who have READ it is a different story.

However quality of story does not matter if hatred for the race and gender of the cast and especially the writer is constantly under fire.Then folks want to wonder why attracting new readers let alone talent is a battle.