DC early 90's changes:Good,Bad or Ugly?

[Menacer]

I was re-reading the Superman Blue (and Red) epic just last week. Maaaan, epic times. The 90s is so cool.

You had a return to the 'Big 7' in the JL, and then BOOM! it was extended to form one of the classiest teams there is. No JL title has come close to Morrison's and Waid's JL.

You had Kyle as a GL, and Hal as the best villain in the DCU.

The Titans being a family (for the last time ever since).

Heroes crossing and starring in each other titles, and referencing each other constantly.

And while it was "dark" it was def not Superboy Prime dark.

I am eagerly waiting for the DC vs Marvel 1996 Vol 1 & 2 Omnibus to drop ! Own a couple issues from this huge crossover event and would love the whole story!

Yes the 90s do have some amazing books!

[Brian Adkins]

Like many others here,am of the age where comic books were still sold on spinner racks in grocery stores and pharmacies. Even got one through the mail for a while. Wasn't able to get a full run or sometimes finish a story arc until getting a driver's license and found a comic book store that was a 45 minute drive. This was in the early 90's. Shocking,right!? lol
Not necessarily nostalgic for it,may sometimes go back and revisit old stories but even back then knew some of them were not that good,be it the art or the writing or even both. Meanwhile,you also have some that are great and have stool the test of time.
As most can tell you,that is the case for any era.

[Buried Alien]

My own DC nostalgia centers on the period from 1977-1984. I liked some aspect of the DC 1990s, but I'm not nostalgic for that decade as a whole.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[married guy]

As much as I love the period, I can understand some people hating it.

DC did take it too far with their 'out with the old, in with the new' mentality.
While I loved the legacy it created with it's heroes, the JSA were treated HORRIBLY in the 90's.
The Jared Stevens Fate character was horrible. Hawkman was completely FUBAR.
Titans had Raven and Beast Boy (sorry, Changeling) evil.
Thankfully, this was rectified by the brilliant Johns & Goyer title which kicked off in 1999.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

There was a lot of genuinely terrible crap in the '90s but DC had so many amazing comics throughout the decade that it's easy to forget and forget the awful stuff. The early '90s were something of a transition period, in many ways, but along with stuff like Waid's Flash and the triangle era on Superman, we also had the foundations and then founding of Vertigo. By the late '90s, DC was flying high with tons of exceptional comics, including peak Vertigo, Starman, Hitman, Morrison's JLA, PAD's Supergirl, Impulse, and so much more.

This doesn't actually answer the question asked, though. The truth is that a lot of the '90s changes seem bad on paper but they were often really well done in execution. The Linda Danvers Supergirl (I know, that was more mid-90s but whatever), for example, is a hot mess of a character on paper but Peter David made her into one of the best now-forgotten characters that DC ever had. Having Hal Jordan go mad? Sure, not great if you're a Hal fan, and destroying the Corps should have been a total disaster but Kyle Rayner proved to be an enduring character and his book was pretty damn solid for a long time. Azrael Batman? Just... eugh... and yet it made for some compelling stories that examined Batman's place in the Extreme '90s. The whole Death and Return of Superman? Could so easily have been terrible but while I don't love the Death part aside for some killer art, Funeral For a Friend and Reign of the Superman are some of the best Superman comics I've read. Certainly in-continuity. Even the electric Superman gimmick, which may have long worn out its welcome by the time the whole Superman Red/ Superman Blue thing started, started off as a surprisingly good examination of how the things that make Superman Superman are not his familiar powers or even how he looks.

Execution is really far more important than the changes themselves. Think about it: the idea of having a Justice League made up primarily of c- and d-listers gave us both some of the all-time greatest Justice League stories (JLI still beats even Morrison's JLA as my fave Justice League run ever) and some of the worst superhero comics I've ever read (Jurgens' JLA and Jones' JLE were both still pretty decent but what followed them just got worse and worse). Compare that to bringing back Barry Allen in the 2000s. The Flash had been sagging since Johns left the title and bringing Barry back to run side by side with a Wally West who, in many respects, had surpassed him could have been brilliant. Yeah, it undid Barry's sacrifice in Crisis but it was also rife with potential for truly excellent Flash comics. Instead, all the great work done with Wally West was destroyed and replaced with an aggressively mediocre, even unlikeable take on Barry Allen that has gone on for nearly fifteen years now.

[Dr. Ellingham]

I started reading comics mid-80s, right before Crisis. I think for that decade, I got in at the right time (1983/4), and got out at the right time - 1988 or so. In that era:

Batman/Detective with gorgeous art by Gene Colan and Don Newton, Camelot 3000, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Nathaniel Dusk, Len Wein / Dave Gibbons Green Lantern, Conway/Broderick Firestorm, the last few Brave and the Bold issues, Dark Knight Returns, Batman Year One, Watchmen and JLA back issues of Dick Dillin and George Perez from the early 80s. Also in that era, DC invested in better paper/color reproduction via the "Baxter" reprints. So I was exposed to high-quality deluxe reprints on glossy paper - O'Neil / Adams Batman, Englehart / Rogers Batman, Neal Adams Deadman, etc. Incredible few years, there.

When I got back into comics in the mid-1990s, I was aware that the early part of the decade was like a murder scene they were still cleaning up. No need to list out the bad stuff, but in truth - in revisiting the late 80s via back issues, that era wasn't that great either - just less "extreme death and dismemberment!" But the mid / late 90s? Some great stuff. Waid's Flash run was winding down, but he ably-assisted by Morrison/Millar. There was Morrison's JLA, Kingdom Come, DC One Million, Hourman, Marz/Banks Green Lantern, etc. I lost interest again around 2000, but all that stuff is really good.

The difference between the two eras is simple, too. The purpose of Crisis was to chase Marvel readers and make DC "safe" for them. It worked only a little, so five years in it was clear that blowing stuff up and reinventing it all was the only way forward. Especially when Image overtook DC to become the #2 publisher.

But by the mid-90s, having firmly lost that race, writers that actually understood the appeal of DC began taking hold - Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, James Robinson, etc.

[Tzigone]

The difference between the two eras is simple, too. The purpose of Crisis was to chase Marvel readers and make DC "safe" for them. It worked only a little, so five years in it was clear that blowing stuff up and reinventing it all was the only way forward. Especially when Image overtook DC to become the #2 publisher.

But by the mid-90s, having firmly lost that race, writers that actually understood the appeal of DC began taking hold - Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, James Robinson, etc.

Interesting perspective. I think what you read influences things a lot. And I pretty much don't read most of what you do. Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, even COIE - so not my thing. I don't like dark and gritty. But for me it was all back issues, since I got into comics (particularly DC comics) much later. This distinction between DC and Marvel is not to me what it is to others. I can look at the history and know they are different, but I started reading Marvel in the mid-90s (and read titles published at the time along with a few masterworks and such) and DC much later, but started with '90s comics and branched from there).

Not having read read many of these deaths, I don't think of the 90s as death-laden, even though they were. I even manage not to think of some of the armor. The Titans finally lost me after a long period of decline, but there was other stuff.

So, for me the '90s stories weren't so bad because I wasn't reading mainly the old guard (read older stories with them, but I liked the '70s JLA over the '80s one). I read Impulse and Robin and Nightwing (who is older) and Young Justice. I intentionally didn't read the murder scene ones because I knew it wouldn't be my thing, so since I'm approaching it all in hindsight, the era doesn't seem any worse than some other eras for that for me. For me, the 2000s issues are rather the death knell. The '90s characters I really liked got personality re-writes and I don't like the new ones as well. Losing their comics was one thing. Just ditching their supporting casts to stick them with new people was much more annoying. But the personality re-writers and the death and the angst. Late '90s to very early 2000s started the decline of a lot of characters I'd liked (lost a good many others in the late '80s you reference).

For me, I think the worst aspect of modern comics (and it's been building decades) are the shocking events with heroes. Sure, some died in COIE. Don't really like that, but I can see it from a storytelling perspective and it worked. But then we started with events about heroes not being heroes. Some are Manhunters. Then there's Monarch. Not sure if making Raven (and to a lesser degree Jericho) evil counts in the same way, with the event-status different, but I'm not a fan. Then Hal and then Identity Crisis hit heavy on the JLA. It's no fun to me when the heroes aren't heroes and get turned evil (sometimes mind-controlled, sometimes revealed/retconned later to be mind-controlled, and sometimes not at all mind-controlled). I love reading about heroes. Not perfect people, but good ones. And there reaches a point where so many have done so many bad things I can't enjoy them the same way anymore without mentally erasing significant parts of their history. And that's not good because history should enrich them, rather than detract. And, of course, along the way, more and more shocking and horrible events happening to heroes and their families (Donna's family, Lian, Dubbilex, I don't know how many Bats have been dead, etc.). I can't even care anymore - I feel like "just pretend it didn't happen" in regards to Flashpoint. Roy's dead - I keep forgetting it. That's how pathetic I find these events these days.

And I agree that was definitely happening somewhat in the early to mid 90s, too. I mean, Hal. But maybe that's too late to count if you are only going to 1993 for "early"? Jericho and Raven should count, anyway.

I think that, at least once you get the mid-80s, at any given time there are titles where everything is being destroyed and titles where it isn't. But it's not the same titles. So whichever titles/characters you focus on determines your impressions on how dark the era was. Events are pretty much always big on death and/or destruction, IMO.

Aesthetics, like armor and Superman with a big 'ol gun (terrible - makes me cringe), or gigantic breasts and lots of boob/butt shots of women with twisted spines are something of a different story.

[Menacer]

Interesting perspective. I think what you read influences things a lot. And I pretty much don't read most of what you do. Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, even COIE - so not my thing. I don't like dark and gritty. But for me it was all back issues, since I got into comics (particularly DC comics) much later. This distinction between DC and Marvel is not to me what it is to others. I can look at the history and know they are different, but I started reading Marvel in the mid-90s (and read titles published at the time along with a few masterworks and such) and DC much later, but started with '90s comics and branched from there).

Not having read read many of these deaths, I don't think of the 90s as death-laden, even though they were. I even manage not to think of some of the armor. The Titans finally lost me after a long period of decline, but there was other stuff.

So, for me the '90s stories weren't so bad because I wasn't reading mainly the old guard (read older stories with them, but I liked the '70s JLA over the '80s one). I read Impulse and Robin and Nightwing (who is older) and Young Justice. I intentionally didn't read the murder scene ones because I knew it wouldn't be my thing, so since I'm approaching it all in hindsight, the era doesn't seem any worse than some other eras for that for me. For me, the 2000s issues are rather the death knell. The '90s characters I really liked got personality re-writes and I don't like the new ones as well. Losing their comics was one thing. Just ditching their supporting casts to stick them with new people was much more annoying. But the personality re-writers and the death and the angst. Late '90s to very early 2000s started the decline of a lot of characters I'd liked (lost a good many others in the late '80s you reference).

For me, I think the worst aspect of modern comics (and it's been building decades) are the shocking events with heroes. Sure, some died in COIE. Don't really like that, but I can see it from a storytelling perspective and it worked. But then we started with events about heroes not being heroes. Some are Manhunters. Then there's Monarch. Not sure if making Raven (and to a lesser degree Jericho) evil counts in the same way, with the event-status different, but I'm not a fan. Then Hal and then Identity Crisis hit heavy on the JLA. It's no fun to me when the heroes aren't heroes and get turned evil (sometimes mind-controlled, sometimes revealed/retconned later to be mind-controlled, and sometimes not at all mind-controlled). I love reading about heroes. Not perfect people, but good ones. And there reaches a point where so many have done so many bad things I can't enjoy them the same way anymore without mentally erasing significant parts of their history. And that's not good because history should enrich them, rather than detract. And, of course, along the way, more and more shocking and horrible events happening to heroes and their families (Donna's family, Lian, Dubbilex, I don't know how many Bats have been dead, etc.). I can't even care anymore - I feel like "just pretend it didn't happen" in regards to Flashpoint. Roy's dead - I keep forgetting it. That's how pathetic I find these events these days.

And I agree that was definitely happening somewhat in the early to mid 90s, too. I mean, Hal. But maybe that's too late to count if you are only going to 1993 for "early"? Jericho and Raven should count, anyway.

I think that, at least once you get the mid-80s, at any given time there are titles where everything is being destroyed and titles where it isn't. But it's not the same titles. So whichever titles/characters you focus on determines your impressions on how dark the era was. Events are pretty much always big on death and/or destruction, IMO.

Aesthetics, like armor and Superman with a big 'ol gun (terrible - makes me cringe), or gigantic breasts and lots of boob/butt shots of women with twisted spines are something of a different story.

Always amazing how much people differ... I literally disagree pretty much with everything you said. I have the exact opposite opinion from you. I like the exact opposite things you like...

Which is why diversity of stories in comics are so important. Some stories for all of us to connect with.

That's why you let the creatives create, and the different eras exist.

We all gravitate towards stories we love.

And the one point we agree on, ignore the art and stories we don't like.

[WillieMorgan]

If we were supposed to specifically be talking about 1990 to 1993, ie, "early 90s" then you are likely correct... nothing eventful happened then or very little... based on what I saw in the video and read I assumed the 90s as a whole decade.

Okay lets cover a few things.

THE EARLY POSTED VIDEO

Firstly I dont take these youtubers seriously. Ive seen videos by these guys before, they are usually painful. There videos mostly arent good. That 1 hour of annoying banter. Not thoughtful insight.

THE EARLY 90S

BLUE SUPERMAN followed the big Final Night event which mostly focused on Kyle Rayner and Parallax... published 1996. BLUE SUPERMAN and the Transformed story arc came out 97-98...

So in no way is that video only about early 90s works.

That is some list, a lot more in-depth than I expected to be honest. I've cut most of your post there for brevity's sake by the way, not because I couldn't be bothered to read it or have dismissed it. I think that's possibly the only time that I'm ever gonna hear Superman Blue (or Superman Red for that matter) described as 'groundbreaking' on here or on anywhere else but there we go. You say that your first exposure to DC was Superman #75 back at the age of seven and you're still dismissing age or nostalgia as any kind of motivator for your love of this period? That's fine but I'm gonna reiterate the point that there's absolutely nothing wrong with nostalgia. It pretty much dominates my musical worldview so isn't exclusive to the comic-book world. I'm glad that you still get such a kick out of this period in DC's publishing history.

When we reflect back on comic-books from the 1990's, across the board not just at DC, for it's detractors it tends to be the overall trends of the time that are looked on with disdain as opposed to specific runs. People are right to point that Waid's run on The Flash was top drawer or that Kyle Rayner turned out to be a great addition to the Green Lantern mythos, both of those statements are true. Of course there were good comics back then, there always are. One of my all time favourite Batman stories, Gothic by Grant Morrison, was from the early 90's. The industry was plagued with ugly sales trends though that are cringeworthy to look back on. This is a link to a great article about it:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...geOfComicBooks

It's quite long I'll admit but it's very good at highlighting just how things panned out and why the era is so divisive. Trust me, we weren't too blinded by our own nostalgia to appreciate the 'genius' of 1990's comics.

[Menacer]

That is some list, a lot more in-depth than I expected to be honest. I've cut most of your post there for brevity's sake by the way, not because I couldn't be bothered to read it or have dismissed it. I think that's possibly the only time that I'm ever gonna hear Superman Blue (or Superman Red for that matter) described as 'groundbreaking' on here or on anywhere else but there we go. You say that your first exposure to DC was Superman #75 back at the age of seven and you're still dismissing age or nostalgia as any kind of motivator for your love of this period? That's fine but I'm gonna reiterate the point that there's absolutely nothing wrong with nostalgia. It pretty much dominates my musical worldview so isn't exclusive to the comic-book world. I'm glad that you still get such a kick out of this period in DC's publishing history.

When we reflect back on comic-books from the 1990's, across the board not just at DC, for it's detractors it tends to be the overall trends of the time that are looked on with disdain as opposed to specific runs. People are right to point that Waid's run on The Flash was top drawer or that Kyle Rayner turned out to be a great addition to the Green Lantern mythos, both of those statements are true. Of course there were good comics back then, there always are. One of my all time favourite Batman stories, Gothic by Grant Morrison, was from the early 90's. The industry was plagued with ugly sales trends though that are cringeworthy to look back on. This is a link to a great article about it:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...geOfComicBooks

It's quite long I'll admit but it's very good at highlighting just how things panned out and why the era is so divisive. Trust me, we weren't too blinded by our own nostalgia to appreciate the 'genius' of 1990's comics.

Youve written a good response and thanks for reading mine.

As far as being in the minority of a fan of Blue Superman... you are correct. But there are fans, definitely are fans. Detractors in my estimation bulked at the temporary suit and power change, never read the run then or now and simply hated the idea of the change, cause thats how hardcore fans tend to be. Disdain for creative changes.

As far as nostalgia effecting me, having read 30-50 DC issues from 1992 to 1998 hardly counts as significant exposure... besides many of those issues were not stories I liked then or now... someone who is purely motivated by nostalgia couldnt say own hundreds of books spanning 1970 to 2020... which I do. Love 90s, love 2000, 2010flashpoint, new 52 and rebirth, and have been enjoying the DC Universe books ive read, but havent collected enough of those yet to comment on the current era. My dabbling in 70s and 80s is still pretty light but im excited to read more, just ordered Fourth World Omnibus for example by Kirby.

As far as the direction of the industry of the 90s time, to sexual, or to violent, to much shock events or deaths, I love that stuff, I love over muscled dudes and fit big boobed female heroes, so the 90s period appeals to me and I collect books from all eras that appeal to my tastes.


No doubt walking around my local comic book shop as a 7 year old with a 5 dollar a week allowance has special meaning to me, buying those books then was really exciting and cool, but never being able to read or afford more then an issue or two from a story is hugely depressing... likely why I dropped off collecting in part.


Now I have Curious Comics shop 2 blocks from my house, used comics at Russel Books store 1 block from my house, Indigo books and Amazon as well as comprehensive Reading Order lists available to me..


As far as enjoying reading now is far more nostalgic inducing as I really get to read, colllect, and complete stories, I really have a picture of what the DC universe has been over all these decades and what it is becoming, reading about Nth Metal in a book from 10 or 15 years ago and then reading Dark Knights Metal and how Nth metal is changing the universe once more gives me such excitement.

7 year old me loved reading the Death of Superman 75 and some of the companion issues, but 7 year old me also felt a lot of disappointment that things didnt all connect. One second he's dead and next he's taking out Mogul.

Buying at most 8 disconnected floppies a year for 6 years is the most casual of readers. My film knowledge of the 90s is far better then my comics knowledge ever was.

I enjoy 90s books in going back and reading the full story and not being disappointed, but being stoked that the story lived up to 30 years of growing expectations.

Dont get me wrong there is junk in any run but over all 90s comics stand up well compared to newer books, dark, gritty, heavily sexualized and high stakes deaths and events excite me to know and directly influenced future issues and many of those patterns are perpetuated through the newer eras.

Hence why 90s was ground breaking as the 90s cemented those mid and late 80s stories that prepared the ground work for DC and other publishers to really start telling wild stories.

Its why Preacher, Hellboy, Punisher, Spawn, xmen, sandman, LadyDeath, Sin City, and many more landed in the 90s with outstanding new visions which really impacted future books.

[Brian Adkins]

And after Death of Superman and Reign of Superman,we got 2 new books focusing on 2 of the "fake" Supermen-SUPERBOY and STEEL.

SUPERBOY had a fun personality and some great art by Tom Grummett and Karl Kesel.

Unfortunately,don't remember too much about the STEEL book.

Oh,and what about THE SPECTRE run by John Ostrander? Might have been mid 90's but still...

[Menacer]

And after Death of Superman and Reign of Superman,we got 2 new books focusing on 2 of the "fake" Supermen-SUPERBOY and STEEL.

SUPERBOY had a fun personality and some great art by Tom Grummett and Karl Kesel.

Unfortunately,don't remember too much about the STEEL book.

Oh,and what about THE SPECTRE run by John Ostrander? Might have been mid 90's but still...

Collecting Superboy 0 thru 12 was one of the first things I did when I began collecting in 2016.

Prior to Clone Superboy from the Reign story arc I had never had any interest in Superboy. Leather clad Clone Superboy is and was the coolest concept to come out of the 90s for me, he's the reason I started collecting Young Justice. While I only read a couple issues with Clone Superboy in it during the 90s, I loved the characterizations and costume, and origin.

Annoying just as I collected issues 0-12 they released Superboy Trouble in Paradise tpb and now I can't decide to wait for future trade releases or just finish the 100+ issue run plus crossovers...

I'd rather own trades but realistically if I wanna read this run I need to suck it up and collect the singles while I have the chance.


Steel was always the least favourite of the 4 supers to come out of Reign but he does have some great more modern stories, 52 v1 and v2 comes to mind.

The Spectre is a cool character and I'm personally a fan of how Parallax and Spectres fates had been crossed and eventually separated in GL Rebirth.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Interesting perspective. I think what you read influences things a lot. And I pretty much don't read most of what you do. Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, even COIE - so not my thing. I don't like dark and gritty. But for me it was all back issues, since I got into comics (particularly DC comics) much later. This distinction between DC and Marvel is not to me what it is to others.

Yes - if you started reading comics in the 1990s or beyond, DC and Marvel are really two sides of the same coin.

But up to that point, they were perceived very, very differently. DC was seen as the geeky comic made for your dad, while Marvel was the edgy comic for your teenage brother. A few years on, Image happened (early 1990s). They put an "EXTREME" moniker on a bunch of Marvel knock-offs and began outselling DC and challenging Marvel for #1, creating the 1990s boom. Other publishers were doing well too, such as Valiant. DC realized they had to significantly reinvent their output. Ironically, by the time they had done so to compete, the market crashed and they defaulted back to being the #2 publisher.

And to your point - yes, when you started reading impacts your perspective greatly. 90s fans have been complaining for 15 years now about how DC has gone dark - because it's their favorite characters being put through the ringer. But in the 90s, it was the same thing - just different characters / concepts being set on fire.

And it was there in the 80s too - just less pronounced. You could argue it all started in the late 1970s, with DC killing off Aquaman's son, then Mr. Terrific, then the Earth 2 Batman and Iris West. Weird to think - shocking death and dismemberment has been present in comics for 40+ years now.

[Brian Adkins]

Collecting Superboy 0 thru 12 was one of the first things I did when I began collecting in 2016.

Prior to Clone Superboy from the Reign story arc I had never had any interest in Superboy. Leather clad Clone Superboy is and was the coolest concept to come out of the 90s for me, he's the reason I started collecting Young Justice. While I only read a couple issues with Clone Superboy in it during the 90s, I loved the characterizations and costume, and origin.

Annoying just as I collected issues 0-12 they released Superboy Trouble in Paradise tpb and now I can't decide to wait for future trade releases or just finish the 100+ issue run plus crossovers...

I'd rather own trades but realistically if I wanna read this run I need to suck it up and collect the singles while I have the chance.


Steel was always the least favourite of the 4 supers to come out of Reign but he does have some great more modern stories, 52 v1 and v2 comes to mind.

The Spectre is a cool character and I'm personally a fan of how Parallax and Spectres fates had been crossed and eventually separated in GL Rebirth.

IIRC,the first Steel series had the same artist as Superman:Man of Steel,Jon Bogdanove. Whose art was...well,awful.

The short lived series with Hal Jordan as the Spectre were interesting.

[Buried Alien]

And to your point - yes, when you started reading impacts your perspective greatly. 90s fans have been complaining for 15 years now about how DC has gone dark - because it's their favorite characters being put through the ringer. But in the 90s, it was the same thing - just different characters / concepts being set on fire.

Silver Agers and Bronze Agers were eating it hard during the 1990s.

And it was there in the 80s too - just less pronounced. You could argue it all started in the late 1970s, with DC killing off Aquaman's son, then Mr. Terrific, then the Earth 2 Batman and Iris West. Weird to think - shocking death and dismemberment has been present in comics for 40+ years now.

Yes...1979 was a turning point. It's when things began taking a turn for the dark.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)