Why is Steve Englehart's Fantastic Four run SO BAD??!?

[rockgrant]

Let me start by saying that I LOVE Steve Englehart. His runs on Avengers and Silver Surfer are some of my favorite comics, period.

That's why, as I've been reading through his run on FF this past week, I've been thoroughly shocked and amazed by how awful the writing is! I admire his courage in moving the team forward--having Reed and Sue retire (although the idea of Reed retiring is absurd to me, but I can go with it for the sake of the story,) Ben taking over as leader, and Crystal and Ms. Marvel II joining the ranks. And there are two shining lights during his run--the character developments of both Ben and Johnny. Those two step up like never before, and we see levels of bravery, intelligence, and power within them that we've never seen before.

But beyond that...it's an absolute mess! I know editorial disagreements led to Steve writing the end of his run under a pseudonym (John Harkness,) so I expected those issues to be below par--but I haven't even gotten that far yet! As I sit here, I've just finished reading #323, and even though I'm now 20+ issues into the run, I'm still continually shocked by the consistently bad plotting, scripting, and overall storytelling.

Perhaps the most befuddling moment of all is found in #316, where Ben rambles on for SIX PAGES of absurdly convoluted exposition to attempt to explain the silly and sloppily written events of the last few issues. The monologue covers a series of supposedly connected events that occur across over 100 million years and four or five different Marvel titles, some of which I'd never heard of (Comet Man?!?) I highly recommend you check this out if you haven't seen it--it's so inexplicably stupid and awful that it has to be seen and read to be believed. The closest thing I can compare it to is the creation mythology of Scientologists, but that doesn't even do it justice--the tale of Xenu and his DC-8s is probably more believable than this dreck.

It did occur to me that the sequence may be some kind of satire...but satire of what, exactly? If it is satire, it's bad satire.

I could go on, but I'll spare you. Suffice to say, Englehart's run is without doubt one of the worst periods of FF history. I knew that going in, but I assumed the bad would come with the Harkness issues. Nope--the suckery begins with Steve's very first issue, and--at least up until #323--sucks hard and long with only brief moments of unsuckery scattered here and there.

So back to my original question: Why? Why is this SO bad? What happened? I refuse to believe writing that is this consistently bad can be explained away by "editorial differences." Anyone have an idea or insight?

Thanks,
Grant

[gurkle]

I think Englehart had just lost a step from the '70s. If you compare his West Coast Avengers run with his Avengers run, the writing is just consistently worse in WCA. (He'd even gone back to the old-fashioned way of comics writing where every sentence! ends! with an exclamation point! - even though Englehart didn't write that way in the '70s, or the editors made him add some periods.) The continuity stuff and character development are just more heavy-handed in the '80s, and he keeps repeating the same plot or character points over and over.

His WCA is still an enjoyable read and Silver Surfer, as you say, was quite good, but they didn't have as much competition; he was only the second person to write either of those titles. But a flagship title like FF needed him at his best.

[Snoop Dogg]

The worst Fantastic Four run was written by someone who thought the biggest problem with the book was half of the core cast, thought it needed two Things, forced parts of their other work into it, and who ended their run with filler dream nonsense out of sheer spite for the older material.

So the answer to your query is that editorial gave FF to someone who didn't give a damn about FF.

http://www.steveenglehart.com/Comics...20304-321.html
http://www.steveenglehart.com/Comics...20322-325.html
http://www.steveenglehart.com/Comics...20326-332.html

[rockgrant]

I think Englehart had just lost a step from the '70s. If you compare his West Coast Avengers run with his Avengers run, the writing is just consistently worse in WCA. (He'd even gone back to the old-fashioned way of comics writing where every sentence! ends! with an exclamation point! - even though Englehart didn't write that way in the '70s, or the editors made him add some periods.) The continuity stuff and character development are just more heavy-handed in the '80s, and he keeps repeating the same plot or character points over and over.

His WCA is still an enjoyable read and Silver Surfer, as you say, was quite good, but they didn't have as much competition; he was only the second person to write either of those titles. But a flagship title like FF needed him at his best.

This was my initial thought as well. The problem with this theory is that he was writing those great Surfer stories at the same time as his awful FF run! But perhaps that's part of the answer--by that time in his career, he no longer had it in him to write multiple titles simultaneously. So maybe he used all his good writing juice for Surfer and gave FF whatever he could wipe up off the bar and wring out of the rag.

And thank you for mentioning the exclamation point thing lol...I noticed that too but didn't think to call it out. That is one of my biggest pet peeves of classic Marvel comics, it's hard to keep the voice in your head from constantly yelling. Why Englehart thought it was a good idea to bring that style back is anyone's guess.

[Holt]

A lot of good writers have bad FF runs for some reason. Wolfman's was really poor.

[gurkle]

I think writing a good Silver Surfer run was easier because almost nothing had been done with the character before except for Stan's run, where he was mostly trapped on Earth. There were lots of stories to tell that no one had ever done at Marvel. It's much harder to find new stories for the FF, and many writers have tried and failed.

And thank you for mentioning the exclamation point thing lol...I noticed that too but didn't think to call it out. That is one of my biggest pet peeves of classic Marvel comics, it's hard to keep the voice in your head from constantly yelling. Why Englehart thought it was a good idea to bring that style back is anyone's guess.

Comics used to have a rule that sentences shouldn't end in periods, because they often were hard to see when the comic was printed, making it look like there was no punctuation at all. Hence the rule that everything ended with an exclamation point!

Eventually printing improved so it was no longer necessary, but many writers continued to write that way either because they had been trained to do it, or because that was the way the classic comics did it. E.g. Carl Barks ended every sentence with an exclamation point because his editors told him to do it, but most Donald Duck comics continue to write that way because that's the way Barks did it.

So for Englehart and Tom DeFalco and some others, they used constant exclamation points because that's the way Stan and Jack did it.

[rockgrant]

The worst Fantastic Four run was written by someone who thought the biggest problem with the book was half of the core cast, thought it needed two Things, forced parts of their other work into it, and who ended their run with filler dream nonsense out of sheer spite for the older material.

So the answer to your query is that editorial gave FF to someone who didn't give a damn about FF.

http://www.steveenglehart.com/Comics...20304-321.html
http://www.steveenglehart.com/Comics...20322-325.html
http://www.steveenglehart.com/Comics...20326-332.html

Thanks for this. God he comes off like a jerk sometimes.

It's definitely clear that he doesn't understand the FF. They're science explorers, not superheroes, and that means they must have a scientist on the team. Thing, Torch, Ms. Marvel II, and Crystal therefore can't possibly be a true "new FF"...without a scientist to lead them, they're just the D-list Avengers. And as I said before, the idea of Reed "retiring" doesn't make sense to me--I can certainly see him wanting to spend more time with his family and less time exploring, but the idea that he would ever totally give up his pursuit of the unknown is ridiculous.

BUT I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say he "doesn't give a damn about the FF." It's pretty clear to me that he has a deep love and respect for Ben and Johnny, and it's great to see Ben overcome his self-doubt and discover that--while he can never take Reed's place--in some ways, he's actually a better leader than Reed ever could be.

I'm all for change and evolution, and so I think Englehart's idea of a new line-up could've worked. It would've required a better way of removing Reed and Sue from the picture (just trap 'em in the Negative Zone for awhile,) and the team absolutely needed a scientist (Hank Pym would've been a great fit.)

Still, the thing that baffles me the most is--beyond the directional and line-up changes--the quality of the actual writing was so poor. Even if Steve had kept the original line-up, or done something akin to what I suggested above, the bad writing still would've sunk it. His excuse of "they forced me to change it all back wahhhhhhh" just doesn't cut it.

Grant

[rockgrant]

I think writing a good Silver Surfer run was easier because almost nothing had been done with the character before except for Stan's run, where he was mostly trapped on Earth. There were lots of stories to tell that no one had ever done at Marvel. It's much harder to find new stories for the FF, and many writers have tried and failed.

That's an excellent point. Despite having been around for ~20 years, Surfer was an (almost inexplicably) untapped resource, and his powers let him go anywhere and do anything. If nothing else, Steve almost certainly had more FUN writing Surfer, and that shines through.

[Iron Maiden]

Let me start by saying that I LOVE Steve Englehart. His runs on Avengers and Silver Surfer are some of my favorite comics, period.

That's why, as I've been reading through his run on FF this past week, I've been thoroughly shocked and amazed by how awful the writing is! I admire his courage in moving the team forward--having Reed and Sue retire (although the idea of Reed retiring is absurd to me, but I can go with it for the sake of the story,) Ben taking over as leader, and Crystal and Ms. Marvel II joining the ranks. And there are two shining lights during his run--the character developments of both Ben and Johnny. Those two step up like never before, and we see levels of bravery, intelligence, and power within them that we've never seen before.

But beyond that...it's an absolute mess! I know editorial disagreements led to Steve writing the end of his run under a pseudonym (John Harkness,) so I expected those issues to be below par--but I haven't even gotten that far yet! As I sit here, I've just finished reading #323, and even though I'm now 20+ issues into the run, I'm still continually shocked by the consistently bad plotting, scripting, and overall storytelling.

Perhaps the most befuddling moment of all is found in #316, where Ben rambles on for SIX PAGES of absurdly convoluted exposition to attempt to explain the silly and sloppily written events of the last few issues. The monologue covers a series of supposedly connected events that occur across over 100 million years and four or five different Marvel titles, some of which I'd never heard of (Comet Man?!?) I highly recommend you check this out if you haven't seen it--it's so inexplicably stupid and awful that it has to be seen and read to be believed. The closest thing I can compare it to is the creation mythology of Scientologists, but that doesn't even do it justice--the tale of Xenu and his DC-8s is probably more believable than this dreck.

It did occur to me that the sequence may be some kind of satire...but satire of what, exactly? If it is satire, it's bad satire.

I could go on, but I'll spare you. Suffice to say, Englehart's run is without doubt one of the worst periods of FF history. I knew that going in, but I assumed the bad would come with the Harkness issues. Nope--the suckery begins with Steve's very first issue, and--at least up until #323--sucks hard and long with only brief moments of unsuckery scattered here and there.

So back to my original question: Why? Why is this SO bad? What happened? I refuse to believe writing that is this consistently bad can be explained away by "editorial differences." Anyone have an idea or insight?

Thanks,
Grant

I had to laugh when I read the title of that thread. I've felt that way for years. I had been buying comics on ye old spinner racks back then and Byrne had left the FF to go work at DC. This run put me off the Fantastic Four, and comics in general. I was starting to feel it was time to move on anyway and this run sure helped make the decisions easier. The last issue he wrote, he even sort of apologized for the awfulness. I picked up some of his stuff years later in the back issue bins and I couldn't believe it could get worse.

Some lowlights

The Sue/Crystal catfight
Aron the Rogue Watcher.

But the one thing that really stood out even to CBR's columnist was how Englehart kept trying to turn Quicksilver into a crazed supervillain type.



I even started a folder of bad Englehart writing I should update but don't want to go through the torture of re-reading some of his more awful examples. Here's a scene from Doctor Strange where Clea is being seduced by.....Ben Franklin!

[rockgrant]

I had to laugh when I read the title of that thread. I've felt that way for years. I had been buying comics on ye old spinner racks back then and Byrne had left the FF to go work at DC. This run put me off the Fantastic Four, and comics in general. I was starting to feel it was time to move on anyway and this run sure helped make the decisions easier. The last issue he wrote, he even sort of apologized for the awfulness. I picked up some of his stuff years later in the back issue bins and I couldn't believe it could get worse.

Some lowlights

The Sue/Crystal catfight
Aron the Rogue Watcher.

But the one thing that really stood out even to CBR's columnist was how Englehart kept trying to turn Quicksilver into a crazed supervillain type.



I even started a folder of bad Englehart writing I should update but don't want to go through the torture of re-reading some of his more awful examples. Here's a scene from Doctor Strange where Clea is being seduced by.....Ben Franklin!

I think it’s pretty clear Steve had some issues with women, or with writing them at least. He’s no misogynist, and sometimes he writes women quite well. But then you have scenes like the one above...ick. Remember what starts the cat fight between Sue and Crystal? It’s mostly because Sue is appalled that Crystal had the gall to cheat on her (abusive) husband. Drag out the strumpet and stone her in the streets! Yet throughout the run, Ben hits on everything with two legs and a pulse, which Sue (not anyone else) seems to have a problem with.

[Iron Maiden]

I think it’s pretty clear Steve had some issues with women, or with writing them at least. He’s no misogynist, and sometimes he writes women quite well. But then you have scenes like the one above...ick. Remember what starts the cat fight between Sue and Crystal? It’s mostly because Sue is appalled that Crystal had the gall to cheat on her (abusive) husband. Drag out the strumpet and stone her in the streets! Yet throughout the run, Ben hits on everything with two legs and a pulse, which Sue (not anyone else) seems to have a problem with.

I don't want to have to go back and read it but wasn't there a sort of plot to get Crystal on the team just to torment Johnny. Ben certainly should have known it would be awkward. I think there may have been a thought bubble with Crystal secretly wanting to get at Johnny.

I have to cop to a personal grudge against Englehart. He was the one that wrote the scene in SVTU that had Doom barging into a peasant's cottage and invoking the droit du seignuer to demand the company of the daughter of the household. But Quicksilver he treated worse for some reason. He really was determined to turn Quicksilver into a villain, even after other writers "corrected" what he wrote!

[rockgrant]

I don't want to have to go back and read it but wasn't there a sort of plot to get Crystal on the team just to torment Johnny. Ben certainly should have known it would be awkward. I think there may have been a thought bubble with Crystal secretly wanting to get at Johnny.

I have to cop to a personal grudge against Englehart. He was the one that wrote the scene in SVTU that had Doom barging into a peasant's cottage and invoking the droit du seignuer to demand the company of the daughter of the household. But Quicksilver he treated worse for some reason. He really was determined to turn Quicksilver into a villain, even after other writers "corrected" what he wrote!

Wow. Gross.

Johnny accused Ben of putting Crystal on the team to get revenge on Johnny for marrying Alicia Masters. This was pretty stupid on Johnny’s part, as Crystal had volunteered to join the team and all Ben did was say yes...and Ben would have been pretty stupid not to, given Crys’s power level and her prior experience on the team when she filled in for a pregnant Sue. Ben did later admit to himself that the thought of getting back at Johnny might have subconsciously influenced him and that a part of him liked watching Johnny squirm. But overall the reasoning was pretty thin.

Also, speaking of the lineup change, She-Hulk straight up disappeared with no explanation during all of this, even though she was still an official team member when Reed and Sue quit. She resurfaces later (to have a meaningless fight with Ms Marvel) and even then she doesn’t say why she left. More lazy writing.

[Gaastra]

I was reading a blog about this run with some behind the scenes. Not sure how true it is (so take everything with a grain of salt!) but they more or less said marvel attacked his run wanting the "old" team back. They wanted reed and sue off avengers, (who only lasted 5 issues and was removed from the avengers by a out of character cap who was angry reed came up with a idea that saved everyone in the city and cap didn't know about it first. But when iron man or hawkeye does that all the time it's fine.) They wanted thing back to the rocky form and removed as leader so reed could be leader again and return everything to what it was for 30 years.

In other words no character growth and change. Torch can't get married and grow up. He has to be a 5 year old prankster so his wife is a skrull! They forced crystal off the team in the annual as well forcing them to change the last back up story! It's why crystal still shows up on the cover as a member and there are only 3 members for the next 7 issues!

The evil watcher story with the clones was his way of slamming marvel and their "nothing can change" attacks and the dream issues were real things he was planning to do in the comic before marvel stopped him!

What happened after? The ff went back to the same old team, torch got unmarried and the thing after a stint in a robot outfit went back to the classic look and was no long leader. Even ms marvel was gone after some time!

Back to the same old same old.


Again keep in mind I don't know how true ANY of this is as it was from a old comic blog. (I can't even find the blog again.) So take all this with a grain of salt as it may all be the blog making it up and a lot of made up nonsense. Again not sure how true this was but they did do this to the avengers run around that time wanting dr druid to turn evil and captain marvel removed so cap can be leader again!

Again can't confirm this as true as I can't find the blog so keep that in mind.

[gurkle]

I was reading a blog about this run with some behind the scenes. Not sure how true it is (so take everything with a grain of salt!) but they more or less said marvel attacked his run wanting the "old" team back. They wanted reed and sue off avengers, (who only lasted 5 issues and was removed from the avengers by a out of character cap who was angry reed came up with a idea that saved everyone in the city and cap didn't know about it first. But when iron man or hawkeye does that all the time it's fine.) They wanted thing back to the rocky form and removed as leader so reed could be leader again and return everything to what it was for 30 years.

Englehart has told it that way. He was given the book by Jim Shooter, who seemed to like him and seemed to agree with the idea that Marvel needed some radical new ideas. And when Shooter was fired and replaced by Tom DeFalco, who was a more traditionalist EiC, the mood was no longer in favor of radical revamps.

But that doesn't explain why the book was so bad even in the early part of the run, which is what this thread is about. Englehart can't blame Marvel management for that.

(Shooter also gave Englehart "Daredevil" and he was going to move him and Black Widow back to California so they could join the West Coast Avengers. But Englehart quit the book after one issue and Ann Nocenti took over and did a fine job.)

[Gaastra]

So to quote star wars it might be true "from a certain point of view?"

What issue did he start on?