What?!? How did that not work!?!

[Zero Hunter]

The Creeper!

A Ditko creation who is half Joker and half Spider-Man. He seems like he should be far more successful as a character.

Would he have done better at Marvel?

The main thing going against the Creeper is his look. He is just such an ugly character. From the color scheme (yellow, green, and orange looks horrible on any character) to that weird mane thing. The concept of the character is good, bu t the look fails on every level.

[Vampire Savior]

Are we really all that different from the rest of the unwashed masses?

It's a bit of a challenging thing to explain, but yes...

This is an entertainment medium that is dominated by a specific niche of collector that wasn't meant to be (that sounded confusing). Most other mediums aren't like that. Comics weren't necessarily created with the intent of collectors to collect them the way some of them do, like buying #1's when they clearly have no interest in continuing with the series. They were meant to be read and followed as stories. The collecting for collecting's sake aspect crept in on its own, and in many ways, got totally out of control (for instance, when you see a book with 40 variant covers and whatnot). Comics are a storytelling medium, like television shows, movies, novels, and even many video games.

Conversely, when I was a child, I collected Pokemon trading cards. There was a specific point to collecting them, as they were designed to be collected from the ground up since their inception. It made you a stronger Pokemon Trainer if you were good at the game. For example, having a Charizard was better than not having a Charizard, because Charizard was definitely the strongest Pokemon in the whole trading card game at that time. And if you had two Charizards, you could easily trade for something you did not have (like a Blastoise, or whatever), and become even more powerful.

Also, action figures are specifically meant to be collected. The idea is to collect all your characters so you can have better make believe play sessions. You can't have Flint in your play session story when you have no Flint action figure. Well, I guess you can Micky Mouse it some kind of way and pretend Barbie is Flint, but it's going to break your story somehow, no doubt.

Sometime when the direct market started to really take off something changed with comics. They were functionally the same (meant to be read), but more and more, they were being designed to be collected as if they were some kind of card or action figure. That is, to where collecting takes precedence over anything else. More and more, they were being designed for a niche of collector. Other entertainment mediums, like novels, movies, video games, and so on, are not designed for and specifically to cater to niche collectors. There are collectors in those areas of interest, but the whole thing does not revolve around them, because if they did, they would alienate everybody else, and those industries might start looking like the comics industry somehow. What helped comics become what they are now was the disappearance of them from where a whole lot of people go, like supermarkets. Thus, a whole lot of people don't see them, thus a whole lot of people don't read them. As such, comics zeroed in even further on that...special niche that could be depended on.

What this all amounts to is comics fans are their own weird niche unto themselves. Outside of this hobby, I'm sure most of them are "normal", but inside of this hobby they're...comics fans. What works with them often doesn't work with everyone else, and what works with everyone else often doesn't work with them. I'm sure there are a lot of comics fans who aren't like that (I'm not, for one), but the thing is, the industry seems to be driven by fans who are like that.

So, they're pretty special. For instance, you can put out a Static Shock cartoon and it will find an audience. Put out a Static Shock comic and it will likely fall like one ton weight, because the general comics fandom doesn't want to see/read/collect something like that.

I hope that makes some sense. There's a lot more that can be talked about regarding this subject, but you've got to stop somewhere.

[married guy]

The Creeper!

A Ditko creation who is half Joker and half Spider-Man. He seems like he should be far more successful as a character.

Would he have done better at Marvel?

Oooh! Good one!

I also thought Ragman was a great concept that has somehow never connected readers.

[skyvolt2000]

Are we really all that different from the rest of the unwashed masses?

Yes.

You got a group (with some CLAIMING to be in said group) that will only want certain characters to be seen and/or have books.

For a lot of the reasons Vampire Savior listed.

I can find more Aquaman fans who have NEVER bought the comic or been to a comic book store that was NUTS about that movie.
I saw kids go NUTS over Static in Young Justice-yet never knew he had a comic. Don't get me started on how shocked folks are to be told Walking Dead was a comic before a show. As was Two Guns, Men in Black , TMNT and so many others.

Look at all the characters and books that have endured some form of HATRED either by fans, gators, employees of DC/Marvel and store owners.
Funny so many of them can find fans outside of the comics. Be it as a trade, tv show or movie.

We saw Black Panther, Guardian of the Galaxy & Deadpool have hit movies. Yet we saw PUSH BACK to attempts to expand their brands.

All I heard was "NOBODY wants those books! Nobody asked for them. How DARE you try to showcase them?" Among other things.
The two companies with the most recognizable characters were being told by comics books fans-NO.

Meanwhile Elvira, Betty Page, Katy Keane and others were getting books with no objections. But DC is told they are WRONG for trying something with Cyborg-the guy who starred on Doom Patrol, Teen Titans Go, Justice movie and is the only person of color to consistently appear in both medias.

It's okay to dig up a DEAD property in Dinosaucers with a comic. Stuff someone like ME would remember.

The unwashed masses are not like that. Those are the folks DC need to go after. Not pander to folks who think only a select few should have anything. Because what DC don't provide-SOMEONE ELSE WILL.

That is how Milestone, Valiant & Image got started. Along with Boom, Aftershock, Vault and IDW.

Marvel whopped DC's behind in films with TRASH. Now they got the cash cows back and knowing a film about a Spider-Man does not have to be about Peter. Don't let Morbius be a hit.

[j9ac9k]

Mother Panic. If there's some backstory behind why this failed, I'd love to hear it. This was an awesome series and deserved to last longer. I don't know if it was the victim of some inter-office politics or what.

Regardless of how good the actual book was, Mother Panic had three things going against it from the get-go:
-- Any Young Animal title is meant to be outside the box and intentionally NOT court the mainstream.
-- It's an odd name and there was no clear premise behind the character to attract readers.
-- She's in Gotham City, which means she's not going to allowed to be very relevant considering the glut of bat-characters running around.

[Lee Stone]

The main thing going against the Creeper is his look. He is just such an ugly character. From the color scheme (yellow, green, and orange looks horrible on any character) to that weird mane thing. The concept of the character is good, bu t the look fails on every level.

I dunno.
I think Dan Brereton could make that color scheme work.

[C_Miller]

Along the same line as the Power Company is the Shadowpact. It was such a good team book with characters that had been around for years all joined together. It is sad it was replaced by the inferior Justice League Dark book, and yes JLD is inferior to Shadowpact in almost every way. Better characters and better stories. It was a true team book and not just John Constantine and Friends like JLD was.

Shadowpact was solid. Though I will say, I felt like the book list a small step from Day of Vengeance, which I thought was incredible.

[Dr. Skeleton]

Definitely agree about Power Company. It was everything a superhero comic needed to be. Action packed and fun. Not everything have to be an X-Book. Sad how it crashed and burned. Also, the Outsiders by Judd Winick was in that category that could've gotten a little more love than it did and the artwork was superb. I also enjoyed the early 2000's Spectre series back when Hal Jordan took up the mantle.

[Elmo]

Man, where’s Aztek?

[AdamFTF]

You know, from what Vampire Savior and Skyvolt2000 are saying, I'm starting to get the vibe that the comic book industry would be better off if we all, or at least a majority of us, left so that these companies could court new audiences

Then again, I might be becoming more mainstream myself (or less, depending on your point of view). I only read a handful of American comics these days. I just kind of got tired of a lot of it. I've been reading a lot more manga instead, with a lean towards romance and slice-of-life.

[superduperman]

You know, from what Vampire Savior and Skyvolt2000 are saying, I'm starting to get the vibe that the comic book industry would be better off if we all, or at least a majority of us, left so that these companies could court new audiences

Then again, I might be becoming more mainstream myself (or less, depending on your point of view). I only read a handful of American comics these days. I just kind of got tired of a lot of it. I've been reading a lot more manga instead, with a lean towards romance and slice-of-life.

Believe it or not, I'm kind of feeling the same way. Before the pandemic I could count maybe two titles I picked up on a regular basis and one of them was a Wal-Mart book. I can think of more TV shows or movies I'd rather own than comics. And most of the comics I do want are outside continuity stuff.

[Zero Hunter]

You know, from what Vampire Savior and Skyvolt2000 are saying, I'm starting to get the vibe that the comic book industry would be better off if we all, or at least a majority of us, left so that these companies could court new audiences

Then again, I might be becoming more mainstream myself (or less, depending on your point of view). I only read a handful of American comics these days. I just kind of got tired of a lot of it. I've been reading a lot more manga instead, with a lean towards romance and slice-of-life.

Many many of us did leave. I have not bought a new book form the big two in probably 5 years outside of the occasional trade. The problem is all these potential audiences they were stearing all their book towards don't buy comics. They like to get online and raise a fuss about social injustice and wanting representation , but then when you give them what they want they don't buy. They chased off most of the older crowd who bought dozens of books a month for this mythical new crowd that at best might buy 1 or 2 books a month. The numbers show that. So now they have driven off the older crowd and overestimated the younger crowds buying habits and both DC and Marvel are in a death spiral. Once you lose the older crowd we move on. We go to Image or Dark Horse manga or other smaller publishers that don't make us feel like we are not welcome to buy their products

DC and Marvel both make me feel unwelcome in their clubhouse anymore.

[Vampire Savior]

Well, I'm certainly not advocating that social justice warriors or the like should necessary be capitulated to. I actually don't have much to say on that topic, and even though I used Static as an example, it wasn't any kind of statement on diversity, or anything like that.

Rather, I think that DC and Marvel are appealing to people with a collector mindset first and foremost, and that's what put them in the position they're in now. It's semi-understandable why they do that, because their distribution isn't great, but I believe that's something they got comfortable with. If they were really aggressive about growing their audience, then they could, especially when they have the backing of Disney and AT&T. Part of the problem is that there are so many old heads in comics who got into comics doing it the way they do, and that's what they know. I think it could benefit the business if they put someone in charge who is an aggressive and smart business person interested in doing what it takes to grow the industry, even if it rankles comics people.

To use a Pro-Wrestling analogy for those who know, it's like when people like Dusty Rhodes, Ole Anderson, and Bill Watts were running World Championship Wrestling in a style that they were comfortable with and made sense to them, but had become old fashioned at the time. Eventually, Eric Bischoff came in and realized it was old fashioned and knew that if he was going to grow and have a healthy business, he would need to change things, and he did and revitalized the entire business in doing so. Now, he had his own faults, but that's another story...

[AdamFTF]

Many many of us did leave. I have not bought a new book form the big two in probably 5 years outside of the occasional trade. The problem is all these potential audiences they were stearing all their book towards don't buy comics. They like to get online and raise a fuss about social injustice and wanting representation , but then when you give them what they want they don't buy. They chased off most of the older crowd who bought dozens of books a month for this mythical new crowd that at best might buy 1 or 2 books a month. The numbers show that. So now they have driven off the older crowd and overestimated the younger crowds buying habits and both DC and Marvel are in a death spiral. Once you lose the older crowd we move on. We go to Image or Dark Horse manga or other smaller publishers that don't make us feel like we are not welcome to buy their products

DC and Marvel both make me feel unwelcome in their clubhouse anymore.

Actually, I have no problem with the social justice thing. And I think the efforts to represent different types of people is laudable.

I just got tired of the whole treadmill-like nature of superhero characters. Corporate-owned characters who are called upon to continue being published successfully for 50+ years written by a string of different writers and artists. All while never appreciably changing or aging or reaching any kind of ending point. These days I'm more interested in more creator-headed stuff like manga or indie books like Saga, etc. or at least stuff like James Robinson's Starman that had one writer and a concrete ending.

[blackbolt396]

Believe it or not, I'm kind of feeling the same way. Before the pandemic I could count maybe two titles I picked up on a regular basis and one of them was a Wal-Mart book. I can think of more TV shows or movies I'd rather own than comics. And most of the comics I do want are outside continuity stuff.

I feel the same way , I have two comics in a pull list Batman and Batman:3 Jokers beyond that I’ll pick up the 80th anniversary books and pick up a few Black Label tiles and that’s it. I really think what’s killing comics are the collectors not the readers.