What?!? How did that not work!?!

[AdamFTF]

I understand that your tired.

This is just part of the genre. So is brightly colored costumes with capes.

Which should bring us to ask: "Why?" Why are superhero comics like this? Is this really a feature when it could just be a bug we've all learned to go along with?

These are questions we really should be asking a lot more. People keep talking about how readership has fallen off for traditional superhero comic mags. They grumble about how manga and graphic novels have eclipsed them in popularity. But then, no one wants to change anything. They're just like "Well, this is just how it is." I'll tell you, if I were a publisher of superhero comics I'd do it completely differently. It may not work, but at least I'd have tried.

[married guy]

I'd like to tip my hat to you sir, you helped save the best comic DC was making at the time.

I barely even registered the new Manhunter until that first letter campaign got some attention online, but the next Wednesday I bought the whole series (up to that point anyway) and never missed one again. If not for people like you I never would've read it, and my life would be that tiny bit worse for the lacking.

I wish I can say it was purely out of altruism!
I just thought the book deserved a longer run than it was given and even though we did get an additional 13 issues, I was still pissed when it was FINALLY canned as I know Marc had a bloody good story idea that he never got to explore.

[hareluyafan1]

You know, from what Vampire Savior and Skyvolt2000 are saying, I'm starting to get the vibe that the comic book industry would be better off if we all, or at least a majority of us, left so that these companies could court new audiences

No offence but courting new audiences and in the process driving off established fans is exactly what DC and Marvel have been trying to do for the last few years. Hence things like Gotham High, Snowflake and Safe-space etc.

The result; sales have plummeted.

Far from being better off, the comic book industry desperately needs us all to come back. Courting new audiences has failed utterly.

[hareluyafan1]

Swamp Thing, Constantine, never knew they were DC until New 52 because in popular media they're never associated with the brand DC in the past. Swamp Thing didn't have a TV series since the... the 80s?

False. The Swamp Thing live TV series aired in 1990 and the cartoon aired in 1991.

[Vampire Savior]

No offence but courting new audiences and in the process driving off established fans is exactly what DC and Marvel have been trying to do for the last few years. Hence things like Gotham High, Snowflake and Safe-space etc.

The result; sales have plummeted.

Far from being better off, the comic book industry desperately needs us all to come back. Courting new audiences has failed utterly.

What's happened there is that they have courted new audiences with the content, yet marketed it and distributed it (or plan to) to the same old people. Disregarding the actual content involved, that was just never going to work.

Note that when Moon Girl goes out to different people, the actual people she is meant to cater to, she does really well.

[K7P5V]

Wildsiderz would be my choice. With top-shelf talent like J. Scott Campbell, what could possibly go wrong?

[Ascended]

I wish I can say it was purely out of altruism!
I just thought the book deserved a longer run than it was given and even though we did get an additional 13 issues, I was still pissed when it was FINALLY canned as I know Marc had a bloody good story idea that he never got to explore.

Hey whatever, that letter campaign is what made me take notice of Kate Spencer and I've been a fan ever since.

And I too was pissed when the book finally died for good....but Manhunter was too beautiful for this world!

[Lightning Rider]

I'm kinda' surprised but not really surprised that Zatanna's books never seem to catch. Kinda' surprised because everyone seems to like her. I don't know that I've even encountered someone who had negative things to say about her (I won't be surprised if they suddenly show up). Not really surprised because the character seems to be mostly known for wearing fishnet stockings, having a missing dad, and speaking backwards. Not the strongest selling points. Furthermore, she's not connected to any of DC's major heroes, which really shouldn't matter, but it does.

It seems to me people may like the idea and look of this stockings wearing magic woman, but apparently not enough to regularly follow solo stories with her.

She's someone everyone is okay with, but honestly, she's nobody's favorite. Which sucks, and I wish she had a truly memorable run, but without an A-level story arc centering her, casuals aren't going to see the character for more than their surface-level traits. (And I admit I haven't read her best stuff, so feel free to correct me if I'm underestimating it, but I don't think any of her solo books even approached classic status.)

It's also hard to get what her "theme" is. Batman's dark & troubled, Superman is inspiring, Wonder Woman is divine, GL's are strong-willed, Martian Manhunter is a lonely alien, Aquaman is a king, the Flashes are everyday good guys, Cyborg is half-machine, Green Arrow is a rebel, the Hawks are cops or eternal lovers,...what is Zatanna? "Everyday Magician" doesn't exactly create that instant emotional in.

That's not me trying to argue against the character's potential, just trying to compare her to successful DC characters who sell.

[DrNewGod]

She's someone everyone is okay with, but honestly, she's nobody's favorite. Which sucks, and I wish she had a truly memorable run, but without an A-level story arc centering her, casuals aren't going to see the character for more than their surface-level traits. (And I admit I haven't read her best stuff, so feel free to correct me if I'm underestimating it, but I don't think any of her solo books even approached classic status.)

It's also hard to get what her "theme" is. Batman's dark & troubled, Superman is inspiring, Wonder Woman is divine, GL's are strong-willed, Martian Manhunter is a lonely alien, Aquaman is a king, the Flashes are everyday good guys, Cyborg is half-machine, Green Arrow is a rebel, the Hawks are cops or eternal lovers,...what is Zatanna? "Everyday Magician" doesn't exactly create that instant emotional in.

That's not me trying to argue against the character's potential, just trying to compare her to successful DC characters who sell.

She does need a hook. Seems there's a tendency to try writing her as the most common magician trope, a keeper and practitioner of dark and mysterious secrets, which I'm not sure fits. She started out like her father, as an adventuring stage magician that can actually do magic. IMO, she ought to be handled as a minor-celebrity superhero, more like Witchfire than Dr. Fate.

[Electricmastro]

She does need a hook. Seems there's a tendency to try writing her as the most common magician trope, a keeper and practitioner of dark and mysterious secrets, which I'm not sure fits. She started out like her father, as an adventuring stage magician that can actually do magic. IMO, she ought to be handled as a minor-celebrity superhero, more like Witchfire than Dr. Fate.

Yeah, an adventurous magician celebrity does sound interesting. I suppose she really just needs compelling enough writing to headline her own book long-term. I recall that Daredevil and Hulk over at Marvel had trouble finding a solid direction for the longest time until the 80s, and now suddenly many more people are interested to write and read about them.

[K. Jones]

I'm kinda' surprised but not really surprised that Zatanna's books never seem to catch. Kinda' surprised because everyone seems to like her. I don't know that I've even encountered someone who had negative things to say about her (I won't be surprised if they suddenly show up). Not really surprised because the character seems to be mostly known for wearing fishnet stockings, having a missing dad, and speaking backwards. Not the strongest selling points. Furthermore, she's not connected to any of DC's major heroes, which really shouldn't matter, but it does.

It seems to me people may like the idea and look of this stockings wearing magic woman, but apparently not enough to regularly follow solo stories with her.

I like a LOT of Magic characters but rarely follow their solo outings. Telling stories about magic is a very tough nut to crack and usually requires a hook or some heavy ground rules. It tends to be easier to tell magic stories when the rules are "pretty grounded", spells have costs, you can leave reality for a spell, but there's a good down-to-earth reality that everyone gets back to where the stories take place. A Hogwarts or a Sabrina's hometown or a Hellblazer gritty story.

The more you go big the more meaningless stories are, and the less characters feel like people worth getting to know. It's kind of the same principle as how alternate universes are a nice place to visit once to show a reflection of your character tropes in a "what could have been" way but the second you keep going back to the Multiverse well your stories lose all their stakes and your "Reality", your world that you've created, ceases to be important in its own story. Multiverses, mirror universes, alternate timelines, almost always lead to collapse of story cohesion, not because of the myriad of logic questions they raise about the world you're creating, but because narratively they're dead ends that specifically highlight the irrelevance or contrast favorably to the limits of your actual Main Storyline.

It's like making crazy art, man. You've got to learn the actual ground rules first before you start getting weird.

[K. Jones]

My "What?!? how did that not work!?" is maybe Threshold.

I mean strictly speaking I know WHY it didn't work. The title "Threshold" makes like no sense. The art was good but the art design, frankly the era we live in and the expectations of high sci-fi design these days, is the effing worst. The expectation for what looks cool or sci-fi in films, games and comics is the least memorable junk nowadays. We remember Kirby designs because they're utterly bat-shit. We remember Star Wars designs because McQuarrie art is so clean. We remember everything Moebius ever drew. Nobody is going to remember Tommy Tomorrow's design from Threshold.

But on paper, it sounded like exactly what I want. DC takes it's entire line-up of Space Man characters and features them all in a comic book. All the 1950s legends - Captain Comet, Adam Strange, Tommy Tomorrow, Space Ranger, down to the weird ones like Space Cabbie, all in one title! Find out what's going on in the universe that's NOT Green Lanterns with these old staples of the DCU from back in the Adventure years when the space race was ratcheting up! And they got the guy who is responsible for that big GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY dynamic that you just saw in theaters and love. And he's got a satirical "prime earth" Captain Carrot riff, too.

And it just fizzled. A dead end storyline, characters who had no spark really. You'd get more character out of the occasional DC SPACE cameo in Venditti's Green Lantern. Comparably your various L.E.G.I.O.N. and R.E.B.E.L.S. runs feel like Shakespeare.

[HsssH]

For me problem with magic characters is that they have this "magic universe" thing going on. So when you pick up a story with Zatanna you know that character X and Y are very likely to appear and it is only a matter of time before some variation of JDL is formed.

[iron chimp]

I absolutely LOVED Manhunter.
It is the ONLY comic I've EVER lobbied to save.
I bought extra copies and gave them away every month.
I did a newsletter that my shop was kind enough to have on their counter.
I was on message boards spruiking to the best of my ability.
Also need to mention that Marc Andreyko went above and beyond.
He'd send out signed copies to fans (myself included) and then posted out printed tee shirts - all out of his own pocket.
It's another reason why I buy any book with his name attached to it. (That and he writes the shit out of everything!)

I said on here that I was enjoying marcs batwoman run and he offered to send me the issues I was missing (i jumped in half way through an arc)

Hes a complete dude

[DrNewGod]

For me problem with magic characters is that they have this "magic universe" thing going on. So when you pick up a story with Zatanna you know that character X and Y are very likely to appear and it is only a matter of time before some variation of JDL is formed.

Yeah, an adventurous magician celebrity does sound interesting. I suppose she really just needs compelling enough writing to headline her own book long-term. I recall that Daredevil and Hulk over at Marvel had trouble finding a solid direction for the longest time until the 80s, and now suddenly many more people are interested to write and read about them.

That's why I think the celebrity magician thing could work for Zatanna. Imagine setting her in New Orleans, or a DC analogue (St. Roche?), and give her a nightclub that does magic shows, but also music, comedy, etc. Her stories can go from the usual mystic fare, to monster hunting, to quirky neighborhood hijinx, to protection racket smashing.

One of the nice things about Z is (can't remember who I'm stealing this from) she's a Glass Cannon. You can throw her at the biggest and baddest, but a common thug that gets the drop on her is a genuine threat, and her powers can be neutralized pretty easily. She really does have a wide range of potential.

IMO, making this approach work would take really investing in her neighborhood habitat, populating it with a range of interesting characters, and giving it a rich local history; mystic, criminal, and tourist. In other words, it needs a James Robinson Starman treatment.