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  1. #1
    Spectacular Member
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    Default Krakoa and the Death

    Hello everyone, now with the issue that mutants can resurrect their dead, they are making the entity of death irrelevant, losing its place and may no longer be needed, as was seen when Jane Foster had to save her.

    We have all seen that a world without death is not the happiest place but quite the opposite. (Cancerverse, Earth X) Death gives meaning to life, without it, there would be an overcrowding, and it would lead to more suffering, if for example Hitler or the Nazis had never died and people would continue to be tortured forever.

    The rules of the multiverse are changing thanks to the X-men, this could have great repercussions and consequences, now give me your opinion of how this would affect the Marvel multiverse.

    Are the mutants the architects of life and death? Do they have the right or duty to be gods?

  2. #2
    BANNED JasmineW's Avatar
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    Death has always been irrelevant, let's not kid ourselves.

    Jean Grey, Cypher, Magik, Colossus, Psylocke, Nightcrawler, Cyclops have all came back from the dead long before Krakoa.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasmineW View Post
    Death has always been irrelevant, let's not kid ourselves.

    Jean Grey, Cypher, Magik, Colossus, Psylocke, Nightcrawler, Cyclops have all came back from the dead long before Krakoa.
    yes, but they were a few individuals, this is a more large scale

  4. #4
    Spectacular Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Based on the inability to revise Kate in Marauders it seems like resurrections are directly linked to the island. So once this status quo is over death will be "permanent" again.

  5. #5
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    The rez mechanics aren't lasting past Hickman.
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
    The world has changed, and so have I.

  6. #6

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    You may enjoy this vintage thread of the very same topic to get some insight on what posters here thought about Death and her... dramatics:

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...c-Entity-Death
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member King_Thor13's Avatar
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    Yeah there's no way that 'immortality' for all mutants will be permanent. For the moment it's serving a very specific purpose, and we're getting all known mutants back in play. But eventually there will be some crux in the system, either via Krakoa itself or the Five. If death continued to mean nothing then there is a limitation of storytelling in that regard. It works for the moment, but it won't forever.

  8. #8
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    Are they really "cheating" death or are they just making the cosmic entities job more annoying by constantly throwing the same people at her to deal with?

    Because technicaly the whole "revival" process is nothing more than X-gene powered 3D printer for people with added memory download. The only difference between this method and the various "cloning tube" style machines we have seen in the past is that they use people with super powers to do the mechanical job of creating the new body from DNA samples. Actualy the whole process isn't even free of classic technology since Cerebro is still an old fashioned digital machine (made with alien tech).
    But from a technical stand point there is nothing new or revolutionary about this method and it's result.

    One could say Xavier just decided to take a page of Doctor Venture from The Venture Bros. for his X-men.

    This also means that we can't say that characters aren't "dying" anymore, because that would mean their bodies and mind wouldn't cease to function and memories aren't erased. But that is exactly what is happening in Dawn of X.
    Imagine taking a picture, burning it and then printing out the exact same picture and saying the previous one wasn't "destroyed". Because that is still what happend. Regardless of what ever the destroyed version was replicated or not.

    There is also the aspect that when a character is "revived" by this replication process they get their memories from a copy made some time before their death. Meaning that there is a difference between the two people, as small as it might be.
    The people who died in the space mission in Dawn of X are not the same "version" as those who crawled out of eggs on Krakoa some time later, even if the difference is just a few minutes or hours of added memory. They of course make a good case for being the same person, but not the same version of them
    Everyone who went to that mission and physicaly ceased to live, had memories, personal experience and self reflection, which aren't comming back because Xavier did not back those up.
    Which means these versions did infact died.

    So there is no cheating death here, no making it irrelevant, just ignoring it's longterm effect (which might bring a lot of problems down the line).
    Which also seems to had led writers to just kill characters in situations they would have previously survived by dramatic luck or thanks to their skills/abilities.

    This however raises the issue of the "soul". Which is a real thing in the marvel comics universe. A soul in this context is roughly a person's personality and memories fused into a metaphysical energy that usualy inhabits their body.
    The location of this soul is usualy an indicator for the reader where the "real" version of a character is. Meanwhile if a character is replicated and both version exist at the same time, the idea normaly goes that the "clone" develops a soul on their own, likely linked to how they beginn to form their own personal experiences which beginns to shape their personality in a different way than what the "original" experiences.
    Something that seems less problematic the younger the clone is compared to the original (see X-23 and Gabby).

    The question of what happens to the souls of those replicated on Krakoa after their physical deaths has, as far as i remember, been left unanswered. I recall Polaris briefly adressed it in House of X, but what Magneto then told her about the process only involves a person's memories being copied into the newly created body. While the metaphysical energy aspect has been left unanswered.
    So what happens when a character in Dawn of X dies and they get replicated on Krakoa? Is their soul somehow pulled back into the new body or do they just develop a new soul?

    In case of the former how does that relate to the backup stored in Cerebro? Are they purely memories or infact copied souls?

    If the later is the case wouldn't the personification of Death handle said souls and guide them to their respective afterlifes?
    But what would happen if she constantly has to deal with the same souls over and over just in tiny variations?
    Likewise how does an afterlife handle multiple versions of the same souls entering?

    For example, we know Kurt (unless the storyline is forgotten) can't go back into the christian heaven, because he fled from it with the help of the Bamfs. So where would his soul go now? Are there at least 2 Kurt Wagner souls (died in House of X and recently Hellions) drifting around aimlessly?

    Likewise what happend to Melodie Guthrie's soul after she died at the hands of Apocalypse? Has it gone into the new mutant powered body, has it gone to heaven where it might eventualy re-unite with the current version in an awkward situation if she dies too, or is it drifting around Krakoa lamenting doing the crucible?

    I feel this is one of the reasons why writers in super hero comics are normaly encouraged not to have their character setup "revival" process that involve them getting replicated once they die, even though it lies in their abilities to be able to do so.
    But Hickman seems to do it either because the questions are actualy part of his longterm story or because he ignores it willing to focus more on his sci-fi project of a "civilization with randomized super powers" he dropped on the x-men.

    Either way "Lost Souls" is definetly on my bingo card for what might end the Krakoa Paradise. Which i like to note is just my speculation of course.
    Last edited by Grunty; 04-14-2020 at 07:11 AM.

  9. #9
    BANNED JasmineW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnihallows View Post
    yes, but they were a few individuals, this is a more large scale
    No, it's not, a mass group hasn't died and been brought back, have they?
    The X-Men in space did but they only did that BECAUSE of the new protocols.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    Are they really "cheating" death or are they just making the cosmic entities job more annoying by constantly throwing the same people at her to deal with?

    Because technicaly the whole "revival" process is nothing more than X-gene powered 3D printer for people with added memory download. The only difference between this method and the various "cloning tube" style machines we have seen in the past is that they use people with super powers to do the mechanical job of creating the new body from DNA samples. Actualy the whole process isn't even free of classic technology since Cerebro is still an old fashioned digital machine (made with alien tech).
    But from a technical stand point there is nothing new or revolutionary about this method and it's result.

    One could say Xavier just decided to take a page of Doctor Venture from The Venture Bros. for his X-men.

    This also means that we can't say that characters aren't "dying" anymore, because that would mean their bodies and mind wouldn't cease to function and memories aren't erased. But that is exactly what is happening in Dawn of X.
    Imagine taking a picture, burning it and then printing out the exact same picture and saying the previous one wasn't "destroyed". Because that is still what happend. Regardless of what ever the destroyed version was replicated or not.

    There is also the aspect that when a character is "revived" by this replication process they get their memories from a copy made some time before their death. Meaning that there is a difference between the two people, as small as it might be.
    The people who died in the space mission in Dawn of X are not the same "version" as those who crawled out of eggs on Krakoa some time later, even if the difference is just a few minutes or hours of added memory. They of course make a good case for being the same person, but not the same version of them
    Everyone who went to that mission and physicaly ceased to live, had memories, personal experience and self reflection, which aren't comming back because Xavier did not back those up.
    Which means these versions did infact died.

    So there is no cheating death here, no making it irrelevant, just ignoring it's longterm effect (which might bring a lot of problems down the line).
    Which also seems to had led writers to just kill characters in situations they would have previously survived by dramatic luck or thanks to their skills/abilities.

    This however raises the issue of the "soul". Which is a real thing in the marvel comics universe. A soul in this context is roughly a person's personality and memories fused into a metaphysical energy that usualy inhabits their body.
    The location of this soul is usualy an indicator for the reader where the "real" version of a character is. Meanwhile if a character is replicated and both version exist at the same time, the idea normaly goes that the "clone" develops a soul on their own, likely linked to how they beginn to form their own personal experiences which beginns to shape their personality in a different way than what the "original" experiences.
    Something that seems less problematic the younger the clone is compared to the original (see X-23 and Gabby).

    The question of what happens to the souls of those replicated on Krakoa after their physical deaths has, as far as i remember, been left unanswered. I recall Polaris briefly adressed it in House of X, but what Magneto then told her about the process only involves a person's memories being copied into the newly created body. While the metaphysical energy aspect has been left unanswered.
    So what happens when a character in Dawn of X dies and they get replicated on Krakoa? Is their soul somehow pulled back into the new body or do they just develop a new soul?

    In case of the former how does that relate to the backup stored in Cerebro? Are they purely memories or infact copied souls?

    If the later is the case wouldn't the personification of Death handle said souls and guide them to their respective afterlifes?
    But what would happen if she constantly has to deal with the same souls over and over just in tiny variations?
    Likewise how does an afterlife handle multiple versions of the same souls entering?

    For example, we know Kurt (unless the storyline is forgotten) can't go back into the christian heaven, because he fled from it with the help of the Bamfs. So where would his soul go now? Are there at least 2 Kurt Wagner souls (died in House of X and recently Hellions) drifting around aimlessly?

    Likewise what happend to Melodie Guthrie's soul after she died at the hands of Apocalypse? Has it gone into the new mutant powered body, has it gone to heaven where it might eventualy re-unite with the current version in an awkward situation if she dies too, or is it drifting around Krakoa lamenting doing the crucible?

    I feel this is one of the reasons why writers in super hero comics are normaly encouraged not to have their character setup "revival" process that involve them getting replicated once they die, even though it lies in their abilities to be able to do so.
    But Hickman seems to do it either because the questions are actualy part of his longterm story or because he ignores it willing to focus more on his sci-fi project of a "civilization with randomized super powers" he dropped on the x-men.

    Either way "Lost Souls" is definetly on my bingo card for what might end the Krakoa Paradise. Which i like to note is just my speculation of course.
    Very well considered and written.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnihallows View Post
    Hello everyone, now with the issue that mutants can resurrect their dead, they are making the entity of death irrelevant, losing its place and may no longer be needed, as was seen when Jane Foster had to save her.

    We have all seen that a world without death is not the happiest place but quite the opposite. (Cancerverse, Earth X) Death gives meaning to life, without it, there would be an overcrowding, and it would lead to more suffering, if for example Hitler or the Nazis had never died and people would continue to be tortured forever.

    The rules of the multiverse are changing thanks to the X-men, this could have great repercussions and consequences, now give me your opinion of how this would affect the Marvel multiverse.

    Are the mutants the architects of life and death? Do they have the right or duty to be gods?
    You forgot the Hulk. It's not just Krakoa the Hulk is causing this too.
    MUTANT and PROUD
    #KRAKOA FOREVER

    #catchmutanthands

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasmineW View Post
    No, it's not, a mass group hasn't died and been brought back, have they?
    The X-Men in space did but they only did that BECAUSE of the new protocols.
    There was the time that Mokk / Grey Gargoyle killed everyone in Paris and then Odin brought them back to life.

  13. #13
    BANNED JasmineW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    There was the time that Mokk / Grey Gargoyle killed everyone in Paris and then Odin brought them back to life.
    Who on earth are these people? I dont remember the 5 resurrecting them?

  14. #14
    Mighty Member useridgoeshere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnihallows View Post
    yes, but they were a few individuals, this is a more large scale
    It's still a tiny scale. Death isn't an Earth entity. In the entire universe, millions of Mutants coming back is irrelevant and shouldn't even be noticed. Except maybe for writers who want to jump into the Krakoa buzz because it's the hottest thing in comics.

  15. #15
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King_Thor13 View Post
    Yeah there's no way that 'immortality' for all mutants will be permanent. For the moment it's serving a very specific purpose, and we're getting all known mutants back in play. But eventually there will be some crux in the system, either via Krakoa itself or the Five. If death continued to mean nothing then there is a limitation of storytelling in that regard. It works for the moment, but it won't forever.
    Yeah. If Fabio Medina is killed, it's all over. The others can be replaced, but not the guy who makes the eggs. In fact, him staying safe on Krakoa won't protect him, as all someone needs to do is time travel to the events of Champions #24 and make sure he gets killed instead of just left in a wheelchair (that problem was solved by Triage during X-Men Disassembled). Such an action would derail history for the X-Men, as the Resurrection Protocols would be impossible.
    Last edited by Digifiend; 04-14-2020 at 12:39 PM.
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