Page 12 of 15 FirstFirst ... 289101112131415 LastLast
Results 166 to 180 of 214
  1. #166
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    12,368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Even when Superman was #1, they didn't need to dumb down Batman in order to do it. Batman was still the best Detective in the world, a great martial artist etc...

    But now, how many people even know that Superman is a genius, or at least used to be in a genius close to Reed Richard's level? They generally think Superman is a nice, simple dumb guy who punches.
    The reason they didn't dumb down Bruce back then was because Clark was so much more crazy powerful than him. What would have been the point? Certainly not to try to balance out things between them as has been the case in recent years.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

    Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010

    Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362

    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?

  2. #167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Even when Superman was #1, they didn't need to dumb down Batman in order to do it. Batman was still the best Detective in the world, a great martial artist etc...

    But now, how many people even know that Superman is a genius, or at least used to be in a genius close to Reed Richard's level? They generally think Superman is a nice, simple dumb guy who punches.
    There's no point in "dumbing down" a normal human in comparison to someone who is practically God. Batman's behind the 8 ball so to speak by not having any powers so obviously writers wouldn't feel the need to nerf him in anyway. And this isn't really a Batman thing it's more of a regular human in comics thing.

    Captain America's combat experience is played up over other more powerful heroes like Thor. Thor has been alive for what, centuries? Yet Cap is the leader of the team instead of Thor. Since Cap is weaker they need something for him to standout on a team of much stronger heroes so even though Thor has way more experience in battle, he also is much stronger so Cap gets the leadership role over him.

  3. #168
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,419

    Default

    I've always been a little torn on the idea of the Super genius myself. I mean, I love the Fortress of Solitude with it's fantastic sci-fi stuff. I love the idea of the horde of Superman Robots that he's built. I like when Luthor can throw some crazy radiation or some magic science at him he can race to lab and work out the antidote or build a supermobile or something...

    but at the same time I DO think it makes him TOO powerful. I mean, i love my Superman to be SUPER... But when he's already the strongest, fastest, laser eyes, micro eyes, shooting tiny supermen out of his hand and whatever else he needs... does he really NEED the super genius too? I mean... Lex is already vastly outmatched in the first place... but trying to turn it into a brains vs. brawn battle when Brawn ALSO has advanced brains too... I don't know.

    MY favorite Superman is Silver Age.. so Super-genius was a core part of it... but I really can't say 'dumbing him down' was necessarily a BAD decision. Definitely makes him more of a team player. A FEW holes in arsenal that others can help with...

  4. #169
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    432

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    According to a recent poll in March, Superman is still at the top. The top ten is:

    America’s top ten favorite superheroes

    1. Superman
    2. Spider-Man
    3. Batman
    4. Captain America
    5. Iron Man
    6. Wonder Woman
    7. Aquaman
    8. Captain Marvel
    9. Black Panther
    10. Wolverine


    Of course, survey's are always somewhat subjective as it's limited to who you poll, and there isn't a way to poll everyone in the world, but it's the most recent thing I can think of regarding this subject.
    Nuh uh theres not way wolverine and spiderman is more popular than deadpool and batman in this day and age of irreverent dark and snarky heroes.

  5. #170
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,419

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    Nuh uh theres not way wolverine and spiderman is more popular than deadpool and batman in this day and age of irreverent dark and snarky heroes.
    meh.... I always wonder if characters are ACTUALLY popular, or if we're just TOLD they're popular. Substitute teaching I've heard a couple kids talk about deadpool... but never read a comic or watched the movies or have any idea who or what he is... just a name recognition. Same for Batman. His popularity really peaked around the Dark Knight with Ledger's Joker... and the what? 3... 4 movie appearances since have been generally disappointing. The comics have spiraled... the only thing i ever hear about Batman is how he's not nearly as cool as he used to be and he just can't get out of the Nolan shadow.

    Spider-man's still riding high from joining the MCU, so i do think he's generally more popular than Batman to the general audiences,... I'm sure with a good movie or cartoon Batman will come back swinging... but at any given snapshot of the fans... i can see it.

  6. #171
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    850

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    1,000%

    Batman has a lot of top quality comic book runs, films, and various media. Superman has had Grant Morrison and a few Alan Moore bits. 1978 was a long time ago, and the Fleischer serials and the George Reeves show (while the best) was even longer ago.

    Superman COULD be very successful but it would take a creative thrust to do so....and he's on the CW now.
    The Majority of crowd who judges heroes' popularities does not give a hoot about the comics, movie watchers who praises big deals on superhero movies included.

    My opinion, throughout most of the eighties, Superman was still top dog, through his presence on Superman II - III and Superfriends / Super Powers / Galactic Guardians.

    Then, Batman, Batman Returns, and Batman: the Animated Series came. Superman: the Animated Series did expose a then-new generation to many aspects of Superman and his world, myself included. Then DC / Warner Bros answered it with the New Batman Adventures.

  7. #172
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    432

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! I brought up all those characters. Why? Because this idea that a superman-esque action hero is hard to write is bogus. Furthermore, only to say that superman-esque characters can be used to tell different types of stories. Let's examine shall we.

    One punch man might be a deconstruction. But, he is very much an idea that could have been pulled of with superman. So, superman is vacuum of dead ideas is bogus. What do you mean by nothing like superman? They both where wierd as costumes and fight because of a core instinct. One is altruism and the other is existential boredom. They are both flat arc(will not change). High powerlevels. They are both unadulterated heroes.

    It doesn't matter. Deku also has all powers similar to clark (for the most part. If he learns other abilities of his previous users it would be different). Durability, strength, speed, agility and jumping ability . And yes, superman is agile. These guys just use him like a brick is all. Deku isn't a flat arc character like superman and allmight himself. But, superman-esque abilities can be protrayed excitingly is shown with both all might and deku. Furthermore, all three of these dudes are actual strongmen, share the basic ethic and same philosophy. "do the work that matters to get stronger"

    What a fantastic observation. You do understand some characters aren't supposed to change fron the start.You don't expect sherlock holmes or james bond or tintin to change. do you? People actually like goku as he is. They don't need to cater to people that don't. They need to find new people to like goku as he is. He is an amazing flat arc character. Btw, goku has changed. He has become more excepting of saiyan side. As for not facing consequences, what consequences did he not face? As if goku didn't get schooled for sending gohan into battle and die protecting him. Furthermore, it's treated like joke. Because guess what? The franchise isn't about family drama. It's about big bam fights, planet busting action.. Etc. If you don't like the franchise, that doesnÂ’t mean the franchise is bad. It just means the franchise isn't for you. Goku another flat arc character like superman. Same origin. He is about perfecting a craft and pushing your limit. Dedicating your whole life to that craft. Even at the cost of personal life. Yes! Many atheletes have chose their career over personal life. Because being at the pinnacle always comes at a cost.

    As for ichigo, what development did you want from the character?the character learned fight without hating someone. Isn't that a development? (i don't remember much of bleach) and that was after the first arc. Ichigo had development, he was never a flat arc character. Like luffy or goku.So, no mate. He ain't nothing like superman. He is more like spiderman. Be that as a may,a character(ichigo) about getting together with friends, to fix an emptyness(hollow) in your life that was created by the death of a loved one. Every one of the cast is going through the lose of a loved one.

    Luffy an adventurer pirate. An opmistic anarchist who fights everybody, for dreams and freedom.

    Gon from hxh. Another flat arc character in the hunt for a familial connection.

    Another flat arc character, that will never change. Because he doesn't have to. It's not about him. It's about his world. Something all these characters have in common. These guys are purest forms of ideal, that get stuck in a world that is blurred or stands against the ideal or philosophy of the protagonist . That doesn't mean these characters aren't flawed. They all are, it is when these characters lose their fundamental sins through "development" that these characters lose their humanity and become saints.

    Their flaws are quirks that make them what they are. Tom will always chase jerry. Popeye will always eat spinach. And those pesky meddling kids will meddle and run scared. they change formula now and then. But ultimately, they would return back to status quo. Also, these characters can be revised to fit a period or for a change of pace as well. After a superman became "marvelised" as you put it. Ofcourse, origin stories aren't what makes them interesting. It the chase. Also, they can be tempted by the world or have complex narratives.

    Finally, making him relatable wasn't the problem Nor was the man of steel's darker asthetic.Byrne reboot just focused on clark kent, not kal el or superman.it didn't make superman relatable. It made him drama centric wet towel, with no sense of leadership. Man of steel had its share of pacing problems and same problems as byrne reboot. Clark was never incharge of a situation and actually being a heroic protagonist.The only exception to that is flight. Which was universally embraced. Tell me, was bruce wayne non-heroic in darkknight trilogy. "they will send the dogs on him. Cause, he can take it". That is heroic as heck. I would comply that superman fandom has its share of idiosyncrasies. But, this idea that its more than any other fandom.And that they are more rigid is something you need to prove. Why? Cause superman is the most changed character. Batman doesn't come close. He is the most revamped and rebooted character. They have changed him again and again from scratch.

    As for being hard, you sprouted your opinions on various characters. But, that still doesn't change the fact that these are superman-esque flat arc characters. Different ideas, with different tones and getting different results. Furthermore, they are all successful. Even the dragon ball goku, you seem to hate. So, this idea that superman-esque action heroes are hard to write and are dead ends for ideas is proven false. As for the rest of the para. I generally agree. But, if you mean by human element a character that's drama fest.Then, i am sorry. I am not interested.It's funny Amazing spiderman can be amazing. Batman can be "the god damn batman" or batgod. But, when superman is being super. People have problems.

    Development or change doesn't make a character complex or interesting. It's about ideas and philosophies that the character carries or embodies and its impact on the opposing or resistant world that makes these characters great.Some ideas come from others and are supposed to change you. Some ideas are supposed to change others and coming from you. Characters like superman are precisely that. Would except vegeta developing into a non-fighter? Piccolo did. Would you except batman developing into a healthy person giving up his futile Vigilantism?



    That's precisely why toriyama felt it difficult to write gohan as the protagonist. It would be another great hero story. As you know, goku was never a hero. He is obsessed with fighting and bushido ethics. He is a warrior by nature. He wasn't fighting for truth and justice or whatever nonsense. Why? If you want that kinda drama, watch smallville and spiderman. Dragon ball is about martial arts, comedy and fights, Not high school drama.Even with that, toriyama wrote gohan as saiyaman - paradoying superheroes and superman , his love life with videl. If you want another with "great power comes, great drama". Read spiderman. Don't read dragon ball and wish for it to be spiderman.
    Saitama, Ichigo, AM, Goku etc work because theyre assholes/idiots that do things spectacularly relatable or fun to people who see their actions change the world around them, making them more entertaining and easier to understand. Superman is a character build on being a lesson and a role model on top of that overwhelming power to exploit, which makes him self limiting as a aim to please character for fans of action fiction. Plus japanese supermen act like comedic cartoon characters and are seen as a equvilent of looney toons who embrace their over the top power and personalities like bugs and daffy. Superman has to be unforunately be portrayed as a serious hook despite hsving the same premise. Its hard to be compelling as the ideal superhero fantasy taken seriously.

  8. #173
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    432

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    meh.... I always wonder if characters are ACTUALLY popular, or if we're just TOLD they're popular. Substitute teaching I've heard a couple kids talk about deadpool... but never read a comic or watched the movies or have any idea who or what he is... just a name recognition. Same for Batman. His popularity really peaked around the Dark Knight with Ledger's Joker... and the what? 3... 4 movie appearances since have been generally disappointing. The comics have spiraled... the only thing i ever hear about Batman is how he's not nearly as cool as he used to be and he just can't get out of the Nolan shadow.

    Spider-man's still riding high from joining the MCU, so i do think he's generally more popular than Batman to the general audiences,... I'm sure with a good movie or cartoon Batman will come back swinging... but at any given snapshot of the fans... i can see it.
    Well in my state deadpool is everywhere even in pre school stickers and toys. Batman, more batman fans talk about his shows amd movies and games than spiderman fans recently.

  9. #174
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    4,466

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    Saitama, Ichigo, AM, Goku etc work because theyre assholes/idiots that do things spectacularly relatable or fun to people who see their actions change the world around them, making them more entertaining and easier to understand. Superman is a character build on being a lesson and a role model on top of that overwhelming power to exploit, which makes him self limiting as a aim to please character for fans of action fiction. Plus japanese supermen act like comedic cartoon characters and are seen as a equvilent of looney toons who embrace their over the top power and personalities like bugs and daffy. Superman has to be unforunately be portrayed as a serious hook despite hsving the same premise. Its hard to be compelling as the ideal superhero fantasy taken seriously.
    Superman being a role model isn't in built, nor was he ever meant to be from inception. They are assholes. Superman has been a bigger asshole than them. This savior role model nonsense was added on after donner movies and postcrisis. It sank the character. Moreover, the entire clark kent persona was for comedic purposes. Superman used to wink directly to audience. They are comic. Doesn't mean they can't tell something of depth. As i have established how that sort of nonsense began in previous posts .
    'This Is An Imaginary Story… Aren't They All?'
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-01-2020 at 01:51 AM.

  10. #175
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,212

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    meh.... I always wonder if characters are ACTUALLY popular, or if we're just TOLD they're popular. Substitute teaching I've heard a couple kids talk about deadpool... but never read a comic or watched the movies or have any idea who or what he is... just a name recognition. Same for Batman. His popularity really peaked around the Dark Knight with Ledger's Joker... and the what? 3... 4 movie appearances since have been generally disappointing. The comics have spiraled... the only thing i ever hear about Batman is how he's not nearly as cool as he used to be and he just can't get out of the Nolan shadow.

    Spider-man's still riding high from joining the MCU, so i do think he's generally more popular than Batman to the general audiences,... I'm sure with a good movie or cartoon Batman will come back swinging... but at any given snapshot of the fans... i can see it.
    If this was true, the Arkham trilogy wouldn't have been this popular.

    I would say Batman and Spider-Man are still at the top of most popular superhero characters. Superman has fall off a long ago and my students couldn't even recognize him when I used him as an example in one of my lessons (then again, kids these days care more about social media celebrities than fictional characters).
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
    – Dale Carnegie

  11. #176
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,212

    Default

    Calling Gon flat while praising Luffy and Ichigo is the highest level of insult. Also, Superman is definitely far better character than these two.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
    – Dale Carnegie

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    4,466

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Calling Gon flat while praising Luffy and Ichigo is the highest level of insult. Also, Superman is definitely far better character than these two.
    Do you really have no reading comprehension? Gon like luffy is a flat arc character. Flat arc means character doesn't progress much or changes into something else. For example, an asshole becomes nice. A narcissist becomes altruistic. Does gon have any of these kind of arcs? Nope! He doesn't. Being flat and having flat arcs are different things. I wrote an entire para explaining how a flat arc character works. Spidey is positve arc character. He changes into positive things. While, two face or injustice man are negative arc characters.Btw, "pop" culture savior naive role model superman sucks compared to luffy. He is boring as eff.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-01-2020 at 01:36 AM.

  13. #178
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,212

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Do you really have no reading comprehension? Gon like luffy is a flat arc character. Flat arc means character doesn't progress much or changes into something else. For example, an asshole becomes nice. A narcissist becomes altruistic. Does gon have any of these kind of arcs? Nope! He doesn't. Being flat and having flat arcs are different things. I wrote an entire para explaining how a flat arc character works. Spidey is positve arc character. He changes into positive things. While, two face or injustice man are negative arc characters.Btw, "pop" culture savior naive role model superman sucks compared to luffy. He is boring as eff.
    I reread your post and I admit that I misinterpret your point, my bad.

    Your words here perfectly describe Naruto and why he become such a terrible character

    Another flat arc character, that will never change. Because he doesn't have to. It's not about him. It's about his world. Something all these characters have in common. These guys are purest forms of ideal, that get stuck in a world that is blurred or stands against the ideal or philosophy of the protagonist . That doesn't mean these characters aren't flawed. They all are, it is when these characters lose their fundamental sins through "development" that these characters lose their humanity and become saints.
    Superman's case is completely different and not comparable because the "changes" he went through the deacdes were due to having different writers with different takes (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't). It's why I think it's unfair to compare comic characters to manga characters and not to mention, it's pretty pointless.

    Luffy is a fun character, but the way you keep talking like it's a fact that Luffy is a better character than Superman makes me role my eyes. Being "pop culture savior naive role model" isn't worse than being a walking anime tropes.
    Last edited by Rise; 06-01-2020 at 02:34 AM.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
    – Dale Carnegie

  14. #179
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    4,466

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Superman's case is completely different and not comparable because the "changes" he went through the deacdes were due to having different writers with different takes (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't). It's why I think it's unfair to compare comic characters to manga characters and not to mention, it's pretty pointless.

    Luffy is a fun character, but the way you keep talking like it's a fact that Luffy is a better character than Superman makes me role my eyes. Being "pop culture savior naive role model" isn't worse than being a walking anime tropes.
    Sorry about the reading comprehension comment. naruto isn't a flat arc character. He has changed. Look at him now, he is the shitty old man with a kid.

    Having different takes is fine and all. Superman's changes were many a times caused by the non creative side. Comics code is one of them. My posts were addressing those.Using troupes to tell a story with themes is what matter. Yes, a walking anime troupe is better than the boring savior.Espiecally,when the said troupe delievers the same themes without being boring. I had said this another thread if siegel and shuster's superman had a successor it might be luffy. A swashbuckling outlaw who fights both establishment, other outlaws and criminals. It wouldn't be modern superman. It's not even intended, the similarities i mean .



    "There can be no happiness in a world where undesirables are thrown away"
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-01-2020 at 03:37 AM.

  15. #180
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,212

    Default

    Superman's problem isn't being boring, his problem is being outdated. His philosophy about Truth, Justice and the American way is a joke in today's era considering how "the American way" casued so much harm to many people in the world (my region which I live in suffered from the so called American way and its justice).

    Luffy is a product of his time too. His type wouldn't be accepted or well liked with today's generation which is why you don't see much of his type anymore. The only thing Luffy has over Superman is being written by his original writer in consistent series with already established fanbase while the latter has a divided fandom due to the many different takes that existed of him through his history. It's why I say it's unfair to compare the two.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
    – Dale Carnegie

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •