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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Superman's problem isn't being boring, his problem is being outdated. His philosophy about Truth, Justice and the American way is a joke in today's era considering how "the American way" casued so much harm to many people in the world (my region which I live in suffered from the so called American way and its justice).

    Luffy is a product of his time too. His type wouldn't be accepted or well liked with today's generation which is why you don't see much of his type anymore. The only thing Luffy has over Superman is being written by his original writer in consistent series with already established fanbase while the latter has a divided fandom due to the many different takes that existed of him through his history. It's why I say it's unfair to compare the two.
    Truth and justice aren't outdated. That's laughable excuse . As for American way it was added later when superman became a brand. I don't particularly think its bad . He is entirely boring. His powers aren't presented in a good way. His fights lack choreography . He doesn't have the personality or the fire. He went from a strongman to a sun god who drinks sun juice. His portrayal seems to be either naive or atworst paternalistic.

    What type is that? A swashbuckling hero. There has been a swashbuckling rootin tootin son of a gun since the western genre and pulp was a thing. Modern Batman is a swashbuckling hero. As for currently, demon slayer's tanjiro is a thing. They are a little more shy. That's it.

    Luffy is still loved and the manga sells very much.

  2. #182
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Superman's problem isn't being boring, his problem is being outdated. His philosophy about Truth, Justice and the American way is a joke in today's era considering how "the American way" casued so much harm to many people in the world (my region which I live in suffered from the so called American way and its justice).
    That's a narrow way to define him. It's unfortunate that Superman is seen as a government tool more often than a vigilante who bucks the system and punishes bullies no matter the consequences.

  3. #183
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Superman's problem isn't being boring, his problem is being outdated. His philosophy about Truth, Justice and the American way is a joke in today's era considering how "the American way" casued so much harm to many people in the world (my region which I live in suffered from the so called American way and its justice).

    Luffy is a product of his time too. His type wouldn't be accepted or well liked with today's generation which is why you don't see much of his type anymore. The only thing Luffy has over Superman is being written by his original writer in consistent series with already established fanbase while the latter has a divided fandom due to the many different takes that existed of him through his history. It's why I say it's unfair to compare the two.
    I wouldn’t really mind if they either dropped “The American Way” (as they have in the past, and it wasn’t there in the beginning) or replaced it with the “Universal Way” since Supes is helping to found the United Planets and he could rep that more than America now. That said, it’s not impossible to explore what the American Way means nowadays. Captain America is very much an icon of America and that hasn’t hurt his image, because Marvel is willing to grapple with the many different viewpoints on what America is and it’s role in the world, both good and bad.

    I 100% agree that the days when you could have Supes uncritically saluting the flag and doing the government’s bidding should be over though. I want more of this:

  4. #184
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    Superman was never really intended to be about "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". That is just what the propaganda in the Silver Age turned him into.

    Grant Morrison nailed it when he pointed out Superman is incorrectly associated with 'Republican Dad' personalities. That is the real reason people consider him "boring" or "outdated". It has nothing to do with powers. Hulk and Thor are very powerful and no one is put off by them.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 06-01-2020 at 11:46 AM.

  5. #185
    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Superman #14 January-February 1942 (Golden Age



    Superman #24 September-October 1943 (Golden Age



    Superman #29 July-August 1944 (Golden-Age


    etc.....!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    ...That is just what the propaganda in the Silver Age turned him into.
    What do you think they were celebrating before then?
    Last edited by Güicho; 06-01-2020 at 11:49 AM.

  6. #186
    Amazing Member TaliaJoy's Avatar
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    Replace "propaganda in the Silver Age" with "war-time propaganda" and it's still pretty accurate.
    You can see my work-in-progress Superman fansite here: http://superman.nfshost.com/index.php Info, reviews, graphics, media, and more!

  7. #187
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Truth and justice became truth, justice and the american way in the radio show.So as said, after Superman, became a brand.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Superman #14 January-February 1942 (Golden Age



    Superman #24 September-October 1943 (Golden Age



    Superman #29 July-August 1944 (Golden-Age


    etc.....!



    What do you think they were celebrating before then?
    Golden Age Superman represented a pro-working class America united against Fascism. The context there is completely different from the Cold War propaganda of the Silver Age.

    Furthermore, all the comics you posted are from WWII. If we look at Golden Age Superman comics before the war, there is no talk of "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". Superman was not conceptualized as a pro-status quo superhero.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 06-01-2020 at 12:08 PM.

  9. #189
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Superman was never really intended to be about "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". That is just what the propaganda in the Silver Age turned him into.

    Grant Morrison nailed it when he pointed out Superman is incorrectly associated with 'Republican Dad' personalities. That is the real reason people consider him "boring" or "outdated". It has nothing to do with powers. Hulk and Thor are very powerful and no one is put off by them.
    As pointed out above, it was WWII where he became a patriotic symbol. Originally it was just Truth and Justice. The source is the radio serials which also gave us Kryptonite, Jimmy Olsen, and other parts of the Mythos.

    https://scifi.stackexchange.com/ques...e-american-way

    Of course they also had Superman push back against his being a “super patriot” at certain points:
    Last edited by Vordan; 06-01-2020 at 12:08 PM.

  10. #190
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Superman was never really intended to be about "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". That is just what the propaganda in the Silver Age turned him into.

    Grant Morrison nailed it when he pointed out Superman is incorrectly associated with 'Republican Dad' personalities. That is the real reason people consider him "boring" or "outdated". It has nothing to do with powers. Hulk and Thor are very powerful and no one is put off by them.
    Imo even Morrison can't believe that wholesale
    He is someone who reads all comics from start of creation up to now
    that's just some of his fans trying to rebel against the cultural zeitgeist turn that has left Superman stuck in the wrong side of history. He is now a old timey hero who represents the old christian values of mom and pa and how that is inherently better than the "values" of contemporary society

    In today's world Superman is too much of "the man" and not as anti authority
    You dress him up, say truth, justice, and the american way and wrap the flag around him enough and the problems just piled up.

    In many ways Batman avoided that even though he was another war propaganda character for a time. DC did a good job of rebooting and rebranding him. Now he's dark and broody as a default and not the middle of the spectrum from Wonder Woman and Superman. He is now completely removed from the perception of them as characters and that is what has kinda pushed his popularity up a notch more

  11. #191
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Imo even Morrison can't believe that wholesale
    He is someone who reads all comics from start of creation up to now
    that's just some of his fans trying to rebel against the cultural zeitgeist turn that has left Superman stuck in the wrong side of history. He is now a old timey hero who represents the old christian values of mom and pa and how that is inherently better than the "values" of contemporary society

    In today's world Superman is too much of "the man" and not as anti authority
    You dress him up, say truth, justice, and the american way and wrap the flag around him enough and the problems just piled up.

    In many ways Batman avoided that even though he was another war propaganda character for a time. DC did a good job of rebooting and rebranding him. Now he's dark and broody as a default and not the middle of the spectrum from Wonder Woman and Superman. He is now completely removed from the perception of them as characters and that is what has kinda pushed his popularity up a notch more
    Eh not quite. Not entirely.



    He’s pro-welfare, pro-immigration, anti-racism, and anti-fascism. He’s been the government stooge, it’s undeniable, and the fetishization of Red America in stuff like the Byrne reboot and Donner Superman don’t hold up as well, but that’s not all he is. Mostly he’s been center left. I mean Batman has also had stuff that’s aged terrible. Take the Nolan films for example: those are pretty right wing, especially TDKR.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Imo even Morrison can't believe that wholesale
    He is someone who reads all comics from start of creation up to now
    that's just some of his fans trying to rebel against the cultural zeitgeist turn that has left Superman stuck in the wrong side of history. He is now a old timey hero who represents the old christian values of mom and pa and how that is inherently better than the "values" of contemporary society

    In today's world Superman is too much of "the man" and not as anti authority
    You dress him up, say truth, justice, and the american way and wrap the flag around him enough and the problems just piled up.

    In many ways Batman avoided that even though he was another war propaganda character for a time. DC did a good job of rebooting and rebranding him. Now he's dark and broody as a default and not the middle of the spectrum from Wonder Woman and Superman. He is now completely removed from the perception of them as characters and that is what has kinda pushed his popularity up a notch more
    I think John Byrne did a good job of returning Superman to his anti-Establishment roots. The problem with Byrnes' Superman (and most Post-Crisis versions of Superman by extension) is that he is a poor man's Spider-Man. The whole "Clark is the real face and Superman is the mask" shtick doesn't work for Superman like it does with Spider-Man. It works with Spider-Man because Spider-Man is a Trickster and Tricksters are about acting differently from ordinary people. He also literally wears a mask. When writers try to translate this to Superman, it doesn't work as well. If anything it makes Clark seem unconfident.

    So while DC moved away from the Superman you're talking about, they never fully returned Superman to his roots. They only returned Batman to his roots, while debating if Superman should be more like Batman or Spider-Man. (Morrison's work on Superman being an exception.)
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 06-01-2020 at 12:38 PM.

  13. #193
    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Eh not quite. Not entirely.



    He’s pro-welfare, pro-immigration, anti-racism, and anti-fascism. He’s been the government stooge, it’s undeniable, ......
    This is why dates are important as people draw lines, move goal posts, and do somersaults as to what defines "Pro-American" or an "American stooge" or "American-Propaganda" as it's convenient for them

    So in order you have so called "American - Propaganda":

    A. A pinup on what it is to be All-American from 1949-50
    "pro-immigration, anti-racism, and anti-fascism.

    B. A panel 1943 story from Look Magazine, "How Superman Would End the War!"
    "Anti-Aryan / Fascism" / pro-Non-Aryan.
    "Land a Non-Aryan sock on your Jaw"
    Meaning Superman does not represent Aryans!

    C. A 1952 comic strip
    "pro-welfare"

    Yet what was the status quo then if not those, according to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Superman was not conceptualized as a pro-status quo superhero.
    Or do you mean Superman did not represent your beliefs. ]


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Golden Age Superman represented a pro-working class America united against Fascism.
    Exactly why I posted them, and how is that less American way than depictions that came before or after?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    ...That is just what the propaganda in the Silver Age turned him into.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Golden Age Superman represented a pro-working class America united against Fascism. The context there is completely different from the Cold War propaganda of the Silver Age.

    Furthermore, all the comics you posted are from WWII. If we look at Golden Age Superman comics before the war, there is no talk of "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". Superman was not conceptualized as a pro-status quo superhero.
    Last edited by Güicho; 06-01-2020 at 03:42 PM.

  14. #194
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    America wasn't much of a topic in the earlier issues by siegel and shuster. I don't think the character was meant to be by them to be the figure. The character just happened to be made into it.

  15. #195
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    Most people forget that New Gods and Legion of Superheroes are spinoffs from Superman. Some even consider them a part of the Superman franchise. That’s something Superman has over Batman. (Who only has the Outsiders).

    Superman was involved in the Legion of Superheroes cartoon too.

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