Is Batman more popular than Superman?

[sunofdarkchild]

People are bringing up characters like Goku, All Might, One Punch Man.

One Punch Man is is a deconstruction of the superhero genre. He's also nothing like Superman.

All Might is not the main character of My Hero. He's the mentor like Gandalf or Dumbledore. The world and the stories don't revolve around him.

Goku has become a perfect example of how not to write a character like Superman. He's a main character who has had 0 character development in decades across several hundred episodes. He's become the least interesting character in his franchise even as he pushes other, better characters aside. He's an idiot who faces no consequences for his mistakes and his neglect of his friends and family is treated as either a joke or the right decision. The story even moved past him over 25 years ago and he's only the main character now because of Akira Toriyama's inability to write other characters with more depth or to tell stories outside of a very specific and extremely limited range.

The Goku problem is not unique. Amine is full of examples. Ichigo in Bleach became one of the least interesting characters in the show after the first major arc was completed. Sailor Moon is by far the least interesting character on her team. There is a real problem with main characters becoming overpowered and bland in long-running franchises like these.

I don't think Superman suffers from that problem, at least not to the same extent. But I think he does suffer from 'Seinfeld is unfunny.' As the first and archetypal superhero, Superman inspired pretty much everything else. So when they want to change directions with him, someone's always going to compare it to what was done with another character. Trying to give him relatable issues led to accusations of 'Marvelization' even though the rest of DC was moving in the same direction at the time. Man of Steel was accused of just aping The Dark Knight because it tried to be darker and more philosophical even though its story about an outsider struggling to fit in was not a story that can be told with Batman.

Is Superman harder to write than Batman? I'd say categorically and unequivocally yes for several reasons, including those listed above. You can't have threats on Superman's level all the time or they lose all impact. Nor should Superman be saving the world every other month without it losing all meaning. That human aspect is needed just as much as the larger than life aspect. But if the Wonder Woman and Shazam movies can be as good as they are then I don't see a reason why Superman can't have the same quality.

[Agent Z]

People are bringing up characters like Goku, All Might, One Punch Man.

One Punch Man is is a deconstruction of the superhero genre. He's also nothing like Superman.

All Might is not the main character of My Hero. He's the mentor like Gandalf or Dumbledore. The world and the stories don't revolve around him.

Goku has become a perfect example of how not to write a character like Superman. He's a main character who has had 0 character development in decades across several hundred episodes. He's become the least interesting character in his franchise even as he pushes other, better characters aside. He's an idiot who faces no consequences for his mistakes and his neglect of his friends and family is treated as either a joke or the right decision. The story even moved past him over 25 years ago and he's only the main character now because of Akira Toriyama's inability to write other characters with more depth or to tell stories outside of a very specific and extremely limited range.

The Goku problem is not unique. Amine is full of examples. Ichigo in Bleach became one of the least interesting characters in the show after the first major arc was completed. Sailor Moon is by far the least interesting character on her team. There is a real problem with main characters becoming overpowered and bland in long-running franchises like these.

I don't think Superman suffers from that problem, at least not to the same extent. But I think he does suffer from 'Seinfeld is unfunny.' As the first and archetypal superhero, Superman inspired pretty much everything else. So when they want to change directions with him, someone's always going to compare it to what was done with another character. Trying to give him relatable issues led to accusations of 'Marvelization' even though the rest of DC was moving in the same direction at the time. Man of Steel was accused of just aping The Dark Knight because it tried to be darker and more philosophical even though its story about an outsider struggling to fit in was not a story that can be told with Batman.

Is Superman harder to write than Batman? I'd say categorically and unequivocally yes for several reasons, including those listed above. You can't have threats on Superman's level all the time or they lose all impact. Nor should Superman be saving the world every other month without it losing all meaning. That human aspect is needed just as much as the larger than life aspect. But if the Wonder Woman and Shazam movies can be as good as they are then I don't see a reason why Superman can't have the same quality.

From what I heard, Toriyama wanted to have Gohan take over as the protagonist but fans demanded Goku come back. As for Ichigo, his lack of development was a result of too many characters clogging the story.

[sunofdarkchild]

From what I heard, Toriyama wanted to have Gohan take over as the protagonist but fans demanded Goku come back. As for Ichigo, his lack of development was a result of too many characters clogging the story.

That's the story that went around, but according to Toriyama himself it's not true. In his own words he wanted Gohan to be the new main character, but he couldn't figure out how to write a character like Gohan, so he brought Goku back. To me it's astounding. Gohan seems to me like the easiest character to write at that point. A teenage superhero struggling to fit in at school, hide his powers and his secret identity, who fights crime because he feels his powers give him an obligation to do so and is burdened by a tragic past and the death of his father figure. That's Spider-Man, that's Clark Kent from Smallville. But Toriyama could never figure out how to write characters who have real human relationships or are motivated by anything other than wanting to fight and get stronger. So he's another guy who would find it impossible to write Superman well.

As for Ichigo, his problem wasn't too many characters, but that he had nowhere to go after he rescued Rukia. He had no goals anymore, no history or anything to do with the new main antagonist, and no place in the story. He was only around because he had been the main character before, but he had no purpose other than being the good guys' 'instant win button' at the end.

[Holt]

Okay, then why isn't wonderwoman or any of dc's tech based heroes like mr. Terrific or anyone really been sold like that.

Because none of the other male heroes are nearly as big as Batman and toy companies have had a historical hesitance to do stuff with female characters. If Mr. Terrific or Cyborg got a movie tomorrow, you'd see toylines for them.

Is that the future of DC? If Batman is their most marketable character, then Superman is just the Man at Arms or Fisto to his He-Man.

Until he has a huge hit, undivisive movie that brings him back to the forefront in a major way? Yeah, probably, unfortunately. But like I said that's arguably been the case for years.

[manwhohaseverything]

Because none of the other male heroes are nearly as big as Batman and toy companies have had a historical hesitance to do stuff with female characters. If Mr. Terrific or Cyborg got a movie tomorrow, you'd see toylines for them.

Why aren't they? If they mr. Terrific or cyborg aren't selling. Then it's dc's job to make it sellable otherwise try new ip or give a makeover to these characters to make them sell. Not just shove batman everywhere. That's the point.

[manwhohaseverything]

One Punch Man is is a deconstruction of the superhero genre.

All Might is not the main character of My Hero. He's the mentor like Dumbledore. the stories don't revolve around him.

Goku has become a perfect example of how not to write a character like Superman. He's become the least interesting character in his franchise even as he pushes other, better characters aside. He's an idiot who faces no consequences for his mistakes and his neglect of his friends and family is treated as either a joke or the right decision. The story even moved past him over 25 years ago and he's only the main character now because of Akira Toriyama's inability to write other characters with more depth or to tell stories outside of a very specific and extremely limited range.

The Goku problem is not unique. Ichigo in Bleach became one of the least interesting characters in the show after the first major arc was completed. Sailor Moon is by far the least interesting character on her team. There is a real problem with main characters becoming overpowered and bland in long-running franchises like these.

I don't think Superman suffers from that problem, at least not to the same extent. But I think he does suffer from 'Seinfeld is unfunny.' As the first and archetypal superhero, Superman inspired pretty much everything else. So when they want to change directions with him, someone's always going to compare it to what was done with another character. Trying to give him relatable issues led to accusations of 'Marvelization' even though the rest of DC was moving in the same direction at the time. Man of Steel was accused of just aping The Dark Knight because it tried to be darker and more philosophical even though its story about an outsider struggling to fit in was not a story that can be told with Batman.

Is Superman harder to write than Batman? I'd say categorically and unequivocally yes for several reasons, including those listed above. You can't have threats on Superman's level all the time or they lose all impact. Nor should Superman be saving the world every other month without it losing all meaning. That human aspect is needed just as much as the larger than life aspect. But if the Wonder Woman and Shazam movies can be as good as they are then I don't see a reason why Superman can't have the same quality.

Yeah! I brought up all those characters. Why? Because this idea that a superman-esque action hero is hard to write is bogus. Furthermore, only to say that superman-esque characters can be used to tell different types of stories. Let's examine shall we.

One punch man might be a deconstruction. But, he is very much an idea that could have been pulled of with superman. So, superman is vacuum of dead ideas is bogus. What do you mean by nothing like superman? They both where wierd as costumes and fight because of a core instinct. One is altruism and the other is existential boredom. They are both flat arc(will not change). High powerlevels. They are both unadulterated heroes.

It doesn't matter. Deku also has all powers similar to clark (for the most part. If he learns other abilities of his previous users it would be different). Durability, strength, speed, agility and jumping ability . And yes, superman is agile. These guys just use him like a brick is all. Deku isn't a flat arc character like superman and allmight himself. But, superman-esque abilities can be protrayed excitingly is shown with both all might and deku. Furthermore, all three of these dudes are actual strongmen, share the basic ethic and same philosophy. "do the work that matters to get stronger"

What a fantastic observation. You do understand some characters aren't supposed to change fron the start.You don't expect sherlock holmes or james bond or tintin to change. do you? People actually like goku as he is. They don't need to cater to people that don't. They need to find new people to like goku as he is. He is an amazing flat arc character. Btw, goku has changed. He has become more excepting of saiyan side. As for not facing consequences, what consequences did he not face? As if goku didn't get schooled for sending gohan into battle and die protecting him. Furthermore, it's treated like joke. Because guess what? The franchise isn't about family drama. It's about big bam fights, planet busting action.. Etc. If you don't like the franchise, that doesn’t mean the franchise is bad. It just means the franchise isn't for you. Goku another flat arc character like superman. Same origin. He is about perfecting a craft and pushing your limit. Dedicating your whole life to that craft. Even at the cost of personal life. Yes! Many atheletes have chose their career over personal life. Because being at the pinnacle always comes at a cost.

As for ichigo, what development did you want from the character?the character learned fight without hating someone. Isn't that a development? (i don't remember much of bleach) and that was after the first arc. Ichigo had development, he was never a flat arc character. Like luffy or goku.So, no mate. He ain't nothing like superman. He is more like spiderman. Be that as a may,a character(ichigo) about getting together with friends, to fix an emptyness(hollow) in your life that was created by the death of a loved one. Every one of the cast is going through the lose of a loved one.

Luffy an adventurer pirate. An opmistic anarchist who fights everybody, for dreams and freedom.

Gon from hxh. Another flat arc character in the hunt for a familial connection.

Another flat arc character, that will never change. Because he doesn't have to. It's not about him. It's about his world. Something all these characters have in common. These guys are purest forms of ideal, that get stuck in a world that is blurred or stands against the ideal or philosophy of the protagonist . That doesn't mean these characters aren't flawed. They all are, it is when these characters lose their fundamental sins through "development" that these characters lose their humanity and become saints.

Their flaws are quirks that make them what they are. Tom will always chase jerry. Popeye will always eat spinach. And those pesky meddling kids will meddle and run scared. they change formula now and then. But ultimately, they would return back to status quo. Also, these characters can be revised to fit a period or for a change of pace as well. After a superman became "marvelised" as you put it. Ofcourse, origin stories aren't what makes them interesting. It the chase. Also, they can be tempted by the world or have complex narratives.

Finally, making him relatable wasn't the problem Nor was the man of steel's darker asthetic.Byrne reboot just focused on clark kent, not kal el or superman.it didn't make superman relatable. It made him drama centric wet towel, with no sense of leadership. Man of steel had its share of pacing problems and same problems as byrne reboot. Clark was never incharge of a situation and actually being a heroic protagonist.The only exception to that is flight. Which was universally embraced. Tell me, was bruce wayne non-heroic in darkknight trilogy. "they will send the dogs on him. Cause, he can take it". That is heroic as heck. I would comply that superman fandom has its share of idiosyncrasies. But, this idea that its more than any other fandom.And that they are more rigid is something you need to prove. Why? Cause superman is the most changed character. Batman doesn't come close. He is the most revamped and rebooted character. They have changed him again and again from scratch.

As for being hard, you sprouted your opinions on various characters. But, that still doesn't change the fact that these are superman-esque flat arc characters. Different ideas, with different tones and getting different results. Furthermore, they are all successful. Even the dragon ball goku, you seem to hate. So, this idea that superman-esque action heroes are hard to write and are dead ends for ideas is proven false. As for the rest of the para. I generally agree. But, if you mean by human element a character that's drama fest.Then, i am sorry. I am not interested.It's funny Amazing spiderman can be amazing. Batman can be "the god damn batman" or batgod. But, when superman is being super. People have problems.

Development or change doesn't make a character complex or interesting. It's about ideas and philosophies that the character carries or embodies and its impact on the opposing or resistant world that makes these characters great.Some ideas come from others and are supposed to change you. Some ideas are supposed to change others and coming from you. Characters like superman are precisely that. Would except vegeta developing into a non-fighter? Piccolo did. Would you except batman developing into a healthy person giving up his futile Vigilantism?

A teenage superhero struggling to fit in at school, hide his powers and his secret identity, who fights crime because he feels his powers give him an obligation to do so and is burdened by a tragic past and the death of his father figure.

That's precisely why toriyama felt it difficult to write gohan as the protagonist. It would be another great hero story. As you know, goku was never a hero. He is obsessed with fighting and bushido ethics. He is a warrior by nature. He wasn't fighting for truth and justice or whatever nonsense. Why? If you want that kinda drama, watch smallville and spiderman. Dragon ball is about martial arts, comedy and fights, Not high school drama.Even with that, toriyama wrote gohan as saiyaman - paradoying superheroes and superman , his love life with videl. If you want another with "great power comes, great drama". Read spiderman. Don't read dragon ball and wish for it to be spiderman.

[mathew101281]

People are bringing up characters like Goku, All Might, One Punch Man.

One Punch Man is is a deconstruction of the superhero genre. He's also nothing like Superman.

All Might is not the main character of My Hero. He's the mentor like Gandalf or Dumbledore. The world and the stories don't revolve around him.

Goku has become a perfect example of how not to write a character like Superman. He's a main character who has had 0 character development in decades across several hundred episodes. He's become the least interesting character in his franchise even as he pushes other, better characters aside. He's an idiot who faces no consequences for his mistakes and his neglect of his friends and family is treated as either a joke or the right decision. The story even moved past him over 25 years ago and he's only the main character now because of Akira Toriyama's inability to write other characters with more depth or to tell stories outside of a very specific and extremely limited range.

The Goku problem is not unique. Amine is full of examples. Ichigo in Bleach became one of the least interesting characters in the show after the first major arc was completed. Sailor Moon is by far the least interesting character on her team. There is a real problem with main characters becoming overpowered and bland in long-running franchises like these.

I don't think Superman suffers from that problem, at least not to the same extent. But I think he does suffer from 'Seinfeld is unfunny.' As the first and archetypal superhero, Superman inspired pretty much everything else. So when they want to change directions with him, someone's always going to compare it to what was done with another character. Trying to give him relatable issues led to accusations of 'Marvelization' even though the rest of DC was moving in the same direction at the time. Man of Steel was accused of just aping The Dark Knight because it tried to be darker and more philosophical even though its story about an outsider struggling to fit in was not a story that can be told with Batman.

Is Superman harder to write than Batman? I'd say categorically and unequivocally yes for several reasons, including those listed above. You can't have threats on Superman's level all the time or they lose all impact. Nor should Superman be saving the world every other month without it losing all meaning. That human aspect is needed just as much as the larger than life aspect. But if the Wonder Woman and Shazam movies can be as good as they are then I don't see a reason why Superman can't have the same quality.

You could also make the case that Saitama (One punch man) is also the least interesting character in his own story. A lot of these overpowered characters seem to have settled into the role of "unstoppable force" that other more interesting characters react to rather then dynamic characters in their own right.

[manwhohaseverything]

You could also make the case that Saitama (One punch man) is also the least interesting character in his own story. A lot of these overpowered characters seem to have settled into the role of "unstoppable force" that other more interesting characters react to rather then dynamic characters in their own right.

That would be your opinion. Maybe that's the point being unchanging ideal others strive to be or beat and isn't fun or interesting at all. That it self makes the character interesting. Besides, the character isn't written to be saint or stick in the mud. It's funny, saitama tells those who were complaining about collateral damaga to eff off. One of these days i want clark to do that. If these jackasses aren't greatfull for someone saving life the best they can. They can piss off. I can see goldenage guy doing something being angry. I mean, he can get pissed off enough to smash cars and throw people around. Current superman, no chance

[Dr. Ellingham]

He isn't more difficult to adapt. He requires more vivd imagination and style.

It's both. In the 6+ Superman films they've made over the last 40 years, they've used exactly 2 Superman villains from the comics. There are sooo many great Superman villains, yet it's Lex, Zod, rinse, repeat. Whereas with Batman they've used like 10.

There so few comics-accurate adaptations of Superman's world compared to Batman - because it requires vision, and scale. It's not for lack of effort. WB saw what Bryan Singer did with X-Men, and tapped him for Superman. He tried, but he gave us the most boring Superman ever. Chris Nolan and David Goyer created two great Batman films, and were put to the task of Superman. They brought in Snyder, and...Superman's dead by the second film.

To say because the right people aren't engaged is incorrect; the same people that pull off Batman are usually in charge of Superman too - they just don't succeed with him. Why is that? Is it that when successful creators switch to Superman, they suddenly become idiots? I don't think so. They just come up short. And that's because he's difficult; you need to have vision, an understanding the mythology, and then build the heightened scale and heady concepts inherent to the best/epic Superman stories.

If that were easy, somebody would have done it by now.

[Dr. Ellingham]

But again, I don't know if that's true. I'd say that the Nolan films are probably among the first if not the only Batman films that have really bothered to actually adapt Batman stories from the comics.

That's incorrect. Batman 89 started out - in the late 1970s, in fact - as a straight adaptation of the Englehart / Rogers run. After reading it, Michael Uslan bought the rights from DC, and shopped it for 6-7 years.
They even brought in Tom Mankiewicz from the Donner Superman films to script:

Tom Mankiewicz completed a script titled The Batman in June 1983, focusing on Batman and Dick Grayson's origins, with the Joker and Rupert Thorne as villains, and Silver St. Cloud as the romantic interest.[11] Mankiewicz took inspiration from the limited series Batman: Strange Apparitions, written by Steve Englehart.[12] Comic book artist Marshall Rogers, who worked with Englehart on Strange Apparitions, was hired for concept art.[9] The Batman was then announced in late 1983 for a mid-1985 release date on a budget of $20 million.

In the mid-80s, they even brought in Englehart as a script consultant. But when Tim Burton signed on, he hired his own writers to change it around, and renamed the love interest from Silver St. Cloud to Vicki Vale.

Also, Batman TAS adapted a couple of Englehart's stories, and based a few on O'Neil / Adams as well.

[Holt]

Why aren't they?

Because neither of those characters has the mainstream notoriety or historical significance of Batman. Like I just said, if you had a Cyborg movie or a Mr. Terrific movie or something else to really put them in the mainstream, things would be different.

If you're asking why Superman is relegated to being a character in Batman's line of figures or whatever, well, there you go. Batman's more marketable but he's also been more consistently successful in the public eye. They've tried with Superman, the problem is that pretty much every attempt since the 80s has yielded mixed results at best. WB spent like 225 million on Man of Steel and 250 million on Batman vs. Superman. It didn't work as well as anyone hoped, unfortunately, but they were clearly hoping Superman was gonna be rocketed to the forefront of mainstream pop culture again. You don't spend a small fortune on a character you don't believe in.

[manwhohaseverything]

It's both. In the 6+ Superman films they've made over the last 40 years, they've used exactly 2 Superman villains from the comics. There are sooo many great Superman villains, yet it's Lex, Zod, rinse, repeat. Whereas with Batman they've used like 10.

There so few comics-accurate adaptations of Superman's world compared to Batman - because it requires vision, and scale. It's not for lack of effort. WB saw what Bryan Singer did with X-Men, and tapped him for Superman. He tried, but he gave us the most boring Superman ever. Chris Nolan and David Goyer created two great Batman films, and were put to the task of Superman. They brought in Snyder, and...Superman's dead by the second film.

To say because the right people aren't engaged is incorrect; the same people that pull off Batman are usually in charge of Superman too - they just don't succeed with him. Why is that? Is it that when successful creators switch to Superman, they suddenly become idiots? I don't think so. They just come up short. And that's because he's difficult; you need to have vision, an understanding the mythology, and then build the heightened scale and heady concepts inherent to the best/epic Superman stories.

If that were easy, somebody would have done it by now.

Fine, they can't do silverage scale superman story. Why not try a goldenage scale story? They would have to have an agile superman that jumps around, runs up a wall, clings on them, runs on electric cables.. Etc. A pure strongman. Not a sungod. Ofcourse, the problem would be the comparisons to spiderman. But, fundamentally a strongman's movements aren't like the creepy wall crawlers movement.Fighting giant robots or artic giants or taking on corrupt authority..etc there are endless possibilities. They could even go for a horror movie with parasite. Terminator-esque apocalypse due to human becoming an ai,with Metallo. Do a lower budget movie and then scale up as you make money. If at all.

I never said these guys become idiots. See, bryan singer basically had taken two main source material. One, max fleischer cartoons. Two, donner movies. The max fleischer inspiration is the best part. Why? It was nver been seen before.As for timm, he himself said he didn't get superman till all star superman. Till he started working with morrison. Snyder read all the books and going for an amalgam. But, he wanted superman relatable. So he threw in an arc. From shy to confident, from introvert to extrovert, from unsure to at peace. But, Superman is a flat arc character. He was always meant to be the latter,clark kent persona being the former.
Balancing the equation.Ofcourse, making superman into unsure, introverted dude was his plan . This along with lack of familiarity (dark asthetic and very different costume) and snyder's hard rock style bread vitriol in people that felt their character was being changed. Man of steel was very much decent, even with all the pacing issues.Among the three only, man of steel felt like an adaptation that took from various eras, right from the start. Other two didn't. Bryan singer divorced man of action from action. That's actually pretty bad.

Timm made a good superman of his taste with justice league gods and Monsters, only later on.

Meanwhile, we have had people like brad bird making characters like mr.Incredible and iron giant. This guy just takes one issue from an old superman comic like Action Comics #188 as base philosophy for an entire movie. We have also had astroboy a character created by superman fan. Studio ghibli referencing superman in many of hayao miyazaki movies and actually meaning it. Tons of anime characters with many similarities to the action hero that is superman and many based on him. Even, wonderwoman had fair bit of donner influence. We have had horror take on evil superboy, which actually did financially alright. So,what do i take from this? Superman is an idea factory. but, he isn't good for direct adaptation?

I agree on the last para. But, i do think these guys come up short because their lack of a better understanding of source material. Fundamentally, If any of the creatives till now have yet to make superman, his movements in flight look interesting. So, How can i expect them to make bigger decisions? And the older comics make these things easily.While,now superman just takes a pose and flies. Like you said, Has there ever been an adaptation of superman that isn't based on donner superman on some level?Even snyder movie had the structure of donner movies and foes.So, doing something original that isn't based on donner would be nice. Wouldn't it? How about an adapation of vigilante strongman from space aka man of action who fights the corrupt and runs from police Or the man of tomorrow trying to build a future with his big ideas and faulty executions.Since,we have already had the simple farm boy, man of steel for decades now after donner. Wouldn't it be prudent to try something different?

Because neither of those characters has the mainstream notoriety or historical significance of Batman. Like I just said, if you had a Cyborg movie or a Mr. Terrific movie or something else to really put them in the mainstream, things would be different.

These characters can't make a movie or an adaptation by themselves,You know. That's precisely, my point. Actually, you seem to forget that superman returns made more money than batman begins along with that fact.You need to spend effort, luck and money In order to get returns. If you have no confidence to make money with your ip's, sooner or later someone else will make money from it or with replicas or anyother means. It's about optmising profits and getting maximum potential from your ips. These guys fail big time in that. Surely, you don't believe batman is the only thing that can make any amounts of money. Do you? If that were true, aquaman wouldn't be a billor dollar movie. As said, if character isn't making money. Fine, change the character. But,trying to make as much money from all your ips Should always be a priority. Not just, hey! Batman =/=money use again and again. Sooner or later even that formula won't work. Example :- batman v superman like you mentioned. Not mention, the fact that you are wasting ips. Marvel doesn't say antman only makes this amout of money not a billon,so let's only make captain marvel or black panther.

[Holt]

These characters can't make a movie or an adaptation by themselves,You know. That's precisely, my point.

Not everyone is gonna get a movie immediately. It's an entire universe of characters. Batman has been a bigger deal since well before the modern superhero movie boom, so the two really can't be compared.

Actually, you seem to forget that superman returns made more money than batman begins along with that fact.

And yet it made less money overall because it was more expensive, which is part of why they didn't move forward with a sequel.

These characters can't make a movie or an adaptation by themselves,You know. That's precisely, my point. Actually, you seem to forget that superman returns made more money than batman begins along with that fact.You need to spend effort, luck and money In order to get returns. If you have no confidence to make money with your ip's, sooner or later someone else will make money from it or with replicas or anyother means. It's about optmising profits and getting maximum potential from your ips. These guys fail big time in that. Surely, you don't believe batman is the only thing that can make any amounts of money. Do you? If that were true, aquaman wouldn't be a billor dollar movie. As said, if character isn't making money. Fine, change the character. But,trying to make as much money from all your ips Should always be a priority. Not just, hey! Batman =/=money use again and again. Sooner or later even that formula won't work. Example :- batman v superman like you mentioned. Not mention, the fact that you are wasting ips. Marvel doesn't say antman only makes this amout of money not a billon,so let's only make captain marvel or black panther.

And they tried it. It didn't work as well as they'd hoped, but Wonder Woman is getting a sequel, as are Aquaman and Shazam. Flash is still in development. Black Adam is in development. We just got confirmation of a Justice League Dark TV show for HBO Max, alongside the Green Lantern one and season 2 of Doom Patrol. That's in addition to the various CW shows, one of which is a new Superman series.

I understand you're upset because Superman isn't top dog right now and seem kind of bitter that Batman is a bigger deal to modern audiences, but to say DC doesn't utilize anyone other than Batman and his franchise is false. It just so happens that he's still their biggest property. There's a hierarchy to these things. Even at Marvel, in spite of all the new hit characters they've brought to the big screen, some still make more money than others.

Marvel doesn't say antman only makes this amout of money not a billon,so let's only make captain marvel or black panther.

The comparison doesn't quite work here because the difference is that Marvel didn't stumble right out the gate (with the possible exception of The Incredible Hulk). Their universe was built on stable footing, which gave them a launch pad for increasingly obscure characters as time went on. Had Avengers not done well or hell, had Iron Man been as divisive, there's a large chance we would not have gotten all these later additions like Ant-Man or the Guardians.

That's essentially what happened to the DCEU, which had stuff like Green Lantern and Cyborg planned. Plans changed when the early films weren't well received, but they're still trying.

[manwhohaseverything]

Not everyone is gonna get a movie immediately. It's an entire universe of characters. Batman has been a bigger deal since well before the modern superhero movie boom, so the two really can't be compared.



And yet it made less money overall because it was more expensive, hence why they didn't move forward with a sequel.



And they tried it. It didn't work as well as they'd hoped, but Wonder Woman is getting a sequel, as are Aquaman and Shazam. Flash is still in development. Black Adam is in development. We just got confirmation of a Justice League Dark TV show for HBO Max, alongside the Green Lantern one and season 2 of Doom Patrol. That's in addition to the various CW shows, one of which is a new Superman series.

I understand you're upset because Superman isn't top dog right now and seem kind of bitter that Batman is a bigger deal to modern audiences, but to say DC doesn't utilize anyone other than Batman and his franchise is false. It just so happens that he's still their biggest property. There's a hierarchy to these things. Even at Marvel, in spite of all the new hit characters they've brought to the big screen, some still make more money than others.



The comparison doesn't quite work here because the difference is that Marvel didn't stumble right out the gate (with the possible exception of The Incredible Hulk). Their universe was built on stable footing, which gave them a launch pad for increasingly obscure characters as time went on. Had Avengers not done well or hell, had Iron Man been as divisive, there's a large chance we would not have gotten all these later additions like Ant-Man or the Guardians.

That's essentially what happened to the DCEU, which had stuff like Green Lantern and Cyborg planned. Plans changed when the early films weren't well received, but they're still trying.

Actually, these ips have been in their hands for years. They tried to make steel movie,remember. So, they could make a movie on any character they want, amy time. For that to happen, you need your ip as a whole to be solidified. Not just batman. Like you said, it's an entire universe. That is if these guys wanted to make the money.

Regardless, it mean superman has enough pull even then as batman and as much a draw. Actually, they did try for a sequel with superman returns.The reason it was scrapped was because of writers strike. If remember correctly. Not because of flop.

Be that as a may, regarding superman being top dog or not. How did wonder woman or aquaman or shazam get movie? Was it because of their policy to make these ips household names and keep them that way. Or is it because of mcu causing superhero boom? Thought so. These characters would have never been given a chance. They would have gone for something idiotic like catwoman or steel that's neither of quality or concept. As for the rest, doom patrol is in good hands. The rest i don't know.

Marvel had stable ground. Have you ever asked why? Like i mentioned, they had to face rejection time and again with iron man to get it made. An ip as obscure as mr. Terrific or metal men is.They built a universe from scratch. They built their brand as whole. They didn't just stop with ironman. They started both thor, got rights for hulk and captain. The brand itself became popular . They didn't shove spiderman into it hopping for a success. Actually, they couldn't even if they wanted it. Thank god. WB on the other hand did. They shoved batman into something and failed miserably. Now, wb needs batman to do anything and everything. Despite that things like bop fail. Marvel doesn't need spidey or xmen to succeed, anymore . Which has been my point.

Sure enough, i am a little bit bitter. I am sick and tired of the mismanagement of property i like. Lack of quality content with the character . I hate all the superman is punching bag nonsense. I am tired of superman being written like a spineless saint that stands above people to give nonsensical sermons and has personality of a brick. No charisma, whatsoever . I am also done with "symbol of hope" nonsense. Its an s for strongman from space. But, these are my personal feeling towards an ip i like. It doesn't have anything to do with my opinion of wb's approach to DC as whole. Anyways, let's agree to disagree. I wouldn't run my ship like dc. Marvel's approach is better.If dc actually manages to diversfy like your claim, good for them. Meanwhile, i am just gonna enjoy whenever quality stuff i like comes along like doom patrol.

[Holt]

Actually, these ips have been in their hands for years. They tried to make steel movie,remember.

That's why I said the modern boom.

So, they could make a movie on any character they want, amy time. For that to happen, you need your ip as a whole to be solidified. Not just batman. Like you said, it's an entire universe. That is if these guys wanted to make the money.

Not even sure what you're arguing here. As said, they did try other characters.

How did wonder woman or aquaman or shazam get movie? Was it because of their policy to make these ips household names and keep them that way. Or is it because of mcu causing superhero boom? Thought so. These characters would have never been given a chance. [

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Doesn't matter. Point is they did.

Have you ever asked why?

Because they made good movies people liked. That's nothing to do with "building up" the characters. That's my point. DC attempted to "build up" their universe and the problem was the execution, but even then they're still utilizing non-Batman characters.

Like I said, you're angry, and I get that, but a lot of this argument now either has nothing to do with what I said (which was literally that Batman had a toyline over Superman because he's more popular and easily marketable) and just turned into a listing of unrelated grievances. Have a nice day.