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  1. #196
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    He’s been the government stooge, it’s undeniable
    Indeed (Action Comics #148, September 1950)


  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Indeed (Action Comics #148, September 1950)

    WTF!!

    I shouldn’t be surprised, but WTF!

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Yet what was the status quo then if not those, according to you?

    Or do you mean Superman did not represent your beliefs.
    I define being 'pro-status quo' as someone believing and/or upholding the worldview of those in power. It has nothing to do with popularity or what is/isn't censored in comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Exactly what I posted them, and how is that less American way than what came before or after?
    "American Way" refers to a specific version of patriotism. Historically it was only used by people who believe in American Exceptionalism. It was also used to crack down on dissenters and smear them as "anti-American".

    The people who don't use it aren't any "less American", but there is a reason they don't use it. It is because of the bad history that comes with the slogan. It didn't have a neutral meaning when it was first used in the Cold War, and it still wouldn't be interpreted as neutral today.

    So yes, Superman can be patriotic, but he didn't initially stand for "the American Way" (nor should he). I know that sounds a little contradictory, and you might consider it "shifting the goalposts", but I think it's a totally fair thing to say.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 06-01-2020 at 03:46 PM.

  4. #199
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    This is a really simple question, with really complex context.

    Yes. Now. Batman is more popular.

    In part, that's because Superman was pushed beyond relatability. Conceptually, any of us who are angry enough could be Batman (if we're geniuses whose joints will stand up to the workouts).

    To be Superman, you have to be royalty. Most of us hate royalty.

    Wait. You have to be royalty to be Batman too.?.

    What were we arguing about?

  5. #200
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    WTF!!

    I shouldn’t be surprised, but WTF!
    Yep, how Superman is ultimately depends on how the writers write him (unknown comic)


  6. #201
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Oh there’s some truly horrifyingly racist stuff in past DC Comics (First pic is WW)


    And of course Marvel wasn’t immune either (although they were Timely back then)

    But to act like any of that is representative of how the characters are now is frankly flat out idiotic. It’s a shameful mark against DC and Marvel make no mistake and it stains the characters as much as the misogyny does.
    Last edited by Vordan; 06-01-2020 at 09:52 PM.

  7. #202
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Oh there’s some truly horrifyingly racist stuff in past DC Comics (First pic is WW)


    But to act like any of that is representative of how the characters are now is frankly flat out idiotic. It’s a shameful mark against DC and Marvel make no mistake and it stains the characters as much as the misogyny does.
    Not to get too off topic, but since you bring up an important point in regards to the art form in comics, which is part of Superman and Batman’s comic history, I’ll say that I think a question that always pops up whenever someone posts a 1940s/50s comic with a comment like yours attached is how exactly fiction/comedy, which is largely tied to the history of comics, should be approached when drawing from the world around you, including black people? Now, I realize outright, racist-based hateful and hurtful comics specifically meant to attack black people is objectively wrong. I get that, though at least from what I understand, most comic artists didn’t draw many black characters the way they did as an attack, but simply as an exaggeration which is perhaps inherent when it comes to comedy and fiction, which even Jack Kirby and Will Eisner were guilty of when they drew Whitewash Jones and Ebony White the way they did.

    Again, this is not to defend racism, but I suppose I’m simply wondering what exactly the fine line is between ok and not ok? Like, would it have been more ok if characters of various races had been caricatured together? Should it have been disallowed for black people to have been part of comedy/exaggeration-based material altogether in favor of only white characters being in exaggerated comedy/superhero stories with caricatures/exaggerated features? Could only someone like Matt Baker have been allowed to insert black characters in comedy/fictional stories since he was black himself?
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 06-02-2020 at 12:06 AM.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Not to get too of topic, but since you bring up an important point in regards to the art form in comics, which is part of Superman and Batman’s comic history, I’ll say that I think a question that always pops up whenever someone posts a 1940s/50s comic with a comment like yours attached is how exactly fiction/comedy, which is largely tied to the history of comics, should be approached when drawing from the world around you, including black people? Now, I realize outright, racist-based hateful and hurtful comics specifically meant to attack black people is objectively wrong. I get that, though at least from what I understand, most comic artists didn’t draw many black characters the way they did as an attack, but simply as an exaggeration which is perhaps inherent when it comes to comedy and fiction, which even Jack Kirby and Will Eisner were guilty of when they drew Whitewash Jones and Ebony White the way they did.

    Again, this is not to defend racism, but I suppose I’m simply wondering what exactly the fine line is between ok and not ok? Like, would it have been more ok if characters of various races had been caricatured together? Should it have been disallowed for black people to have been part of comedy/exaggeration-based material altogether in favor of only white characters being in exaggerated comedy/superhero stories with caricatures/exaggerated features? Could only someone like Matt Baker have been allowed to insert black characters in comedy/fictional stories since he was black himself?
    Why is this even a question? The characters in those images are racist caricatures and nothing more. That is why they are considered problematic. Whether they were meant as a deliberate attack on non-white people is irrelevant.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Not to get too of topic, but since you bring up an important point in regards to the art form in comics, which is part of Superman and Batman’s comic history, I’ll say that I think a question that always pops up whenever someone posts a 1940s/50s comic with a comment like yours attached is how exactly fiction/comedy, which is largely tied to the history of comics, should be approached when drawing from the world around you, including black people? Now, I realize outright, racist-based hateful and hurtful comics specifically meant to attack black people is objectively wrong. I get that, though at least from what I understand, most comic artists didn’t draw many black characters the way they did as an attack, but simply as an exaggeration which is perhaps inherent when it comes to comedy and fiction, which even Jack Kirby and Will Eisner were guilty of when they drew Whitewash Jones and Ebony White the way they did.

    Again, this is not to defend racism, but I suppose I’m simply wondering what exactly the fine line is between ok and not ok? Like, would it have been more ok if characters of various races had been caricatured together? Should it have been disallowed for black people to have been part of comedy/exaggeration-based material altogether in favor of only white characters being in exaggerated comedy/superhero stories with caricatures/exaggerated features? Could only someone like Matt Baker have been allowed to insert black characters in comedy/fictional stories since he was black himself?
    The people making that content presented idyllic images of white people on the regular, but black people were most often portrayed as dimwitted, ugly, servile, or thirsty sexual jungle predators.

    Unless one is a racist, I'm not sure how they can spin these portrayals as okay, or anything like that. It isn't right to do so now and it wasn't right back then. If Will Eisner or Jack Kirby did that, they were creating and promoting racist material...which they were.

  10. #205
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Why is this even a question? The characters in those images are racist caricatures and nothing more. That is why they are considered problematic. Whether they were meant as a deliberate attack on non-white people is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    The people making that content presented idyllic images of white people on the regular, but black people were most often portrayed as dimwitted, ugly, servile, or thirsty sexual jungle predators.

    Unless one is a racist, I'm not sure how they can spin these portrayals as okay, or anything like that. It isn't right to do so now and it wasn't right back then. If Will Eisner or Jack Kirby did that, they were creating and promoting racist material...which they were.
    You both seem to have missed the point: this isn’t about defend those specific Batman and Wonder Woman images, as they shouldn’t, but talking about what exactly the fine line is between ok and not ok in regards to portrayals in comedy/exaggeration/fiction in comics in general, or least in superhero comics. I think that’s the last time I have to make myself clear in attempt to have an academic discussion in regards to comic art, much less in Superman and Batman art, because if that can’t be had, and just amounts to a non-academic “this is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad,” then otherwise we should just move on and not get completely off topic. In any case, hope you two have a nice day.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 06-02-2020 at 12:50 AM.

  11. #206
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    This is a really simple question, with really complex context.

    Yes. Now. Batman is more popular.

    In part, that's because Superman was pushed beyond relatability. Conceptually, any of us who are angry enough could be Batman (if we're geniuses whose joints will stand up to the workouts).

    To be Superman, you have to be royalty. Most of us hate royalty.

    Wait. You have to be royalty to be Batman too.?.

    What were we arguing about?
    I don't know about that. I think Relatability is overrated. Superman was at his most popular when he was a god amongst men and Batman was in danger of cancelation. I think it had something to do with what people looked up to. In the 'old days' people wanted heroes they could aspire to. Doing things taht no man could... now people want heroes to be just like them, or it's not believable.

  12. #207
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I don't know about that. I think Relatability is overrated. Superman was at his most popular when he was a god amongst men and Batman was in danger of cancelation. I think it had something to do with what people looked up to. In the 'old days' people wanted heroes they could aspire to. Doing things taht no man could... now people want heroes to be just like them, or it's not believable.
    Yeah, crazy to believe that Batman was on the verge of cancellation despite his boom in the 40s and the Adam West show.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    You both seem to have missed the point: this isn’t about defend those specific Batman and Wonder Woman images, as they shouldn’t, but talking about what exactly the fine line is between ok and not ok in regards to portrayals in comedy/exaggeration/fiction in comics in general, or least in superhero comics. I think that’s the last time I have to make myself clear in attempt to have an academic discussion in regards to comic art, much less in Superman and Batman art, because if that can’t be had, and just amounts to a non-academic “this is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad,” then otherwise we should just move on and not get completely off topic. In any case, hope you two have a nice day.
    I read your post over again, and, like the first time, I understand your point. But if you want me to point it out specifically to you, it's a good idea to stay away from blackface caricatures, because many people find them offensive. There are plenty of ways to draw black characters in a cartoony fashion that aren't specifically meant to make fun of how black people look.

    Furthermore, it's not a good idea to draw black people totally exaggerated and ridiculous looking when the white people around them are not drawn in that style. That's a pretty weird thing to do.


  14. #209
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I read your post over again, and, like the first time, I understand your point. But if you want me to point it out specifically to you, it's a good idea to stay away from blackface caricatures, because many people find them offensive. There are plenty of ways to draw black characters in a cartoony fashion that aren't specifically meant to make fun of how black people look.

    Furthermore, it's not a good idea to draw black people totally exaggerated and ridiculous looking when the white people around them are not drawn in that style. That's a pretty weird thing to do.

    Now that’s the academic analysis I was talking about, and with a good point as well. Thanks!

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    I reread your post and I admit that I misinterpret your point, my bad.

    Your words here perfectly describe Naruto and why he become such a terrible character



    Superman's case is completely different and not comparable because the "changes" he went through the deacdes were due to having different writers with different takes (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't). It's why I think it's unfair to compare comic characters to manga characters and not to mention, it's pretty pointless.

    Luffy is a fun character, but the way you keep talking like it's a fact that Luffy is a better character than Superman makes me role my eyes. Being "pop culture savior naive role model" isn't worse than being a walking anime tropes.
    Hes Still more popular than any superhero as nerd wish fufillment fan favorite....some how. The dudes got more porn than any other mc outside of pokemon trainers.

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