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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Superman is am more popular symbol and icon, his iconography is used far more in random conversation, but Batman is a more popular character. that being said, Batman seems to appeal to people more in modern times. I think it's because parts of Superman's mythos need serious updating. Example, newspapers are becoming more and more irrelevant by the year, and don't have the symbolic significance they once did. But making Superman a blogger or newscaster kind of doesn't work, because they lack the symbolism that newspaper reporters use to. The values of middle America have also come into question in recent years. A major part of Superman's lore tells us that being raised in middle America is what made him what he is. What happens to a character based on certain conventions, when those conventions are perceived as problematic?

    Batman, has also had his basic premise questioned in recent years, but he's been able to weather it better then Superman, because he is a more versatile character. A good example of this was Snyder's Superman film. A sizable percentage of Superman fans hate that film with a passion because they don't feel it represents the character's essence well. Now look at the Batman films. You've had campy Batman, films (Adam West) Gothic Batman films (Burton) "realistic," Batman films ( Nolan) and even goofy family film Batman(Lego), and you rarely here people say that any of these versions "don't get the character". Their all just versions of Batman. I think this stems from the fact that what Batman represents is more nebulous then what Superman represents, and can be morphed to fit the times a lot more easily. It's hard to change Superman significantly without loosing what makes Superman "Superman". What if Kal-El's ship had crashed in Compton rather than Kansas? would his values be different? Or would it be the same character?

    Batman, at it's core is a concept that has been remade several times since the 1700's. Batman, the Shadow , Zorro, and the Scarlet Pimpernel, are essentially the same character just updated slighty for the time. But the values that make Superman what he is stems pretty firmly from mid 20th century American values and notions.
    Last edited by mathew101281; 04-16-2020 at 04:50 PM.

  2. #17
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Batman is way easier to sell. He's been on top for years but I don't think there was ever anything to do about it.

    Sadly it makes people way too hard on Superman. At worst he's the third most successful comic character
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  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Cynically, I think another part of the reason Batman's overtaken Superman is that he's an easier character to market to children because he has all sorts of cool gadgets and vehicles that easily translate to merchandise.



    Conversely, Superman doesn't need a cool car or a jet or grappling pistol or a utility belt. There's a really great anecdote Kevin Smith had about when he was working on Superman Lives and how the producer wanted him to include stuff like Superman having a suit of high-tech battle armor and S-shaped shurikens just so they could make a bunch of toys to sell to the kiddies.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Of course, the fact that a grandmother in North Korea knows the "S" shield but not the Bat logo doesn't mean a lot when DC gives Bats all the good creators and big roles in Events while forcing all the cool stuff out of Superman's mythos for the benefit of other characters, and WB makes great Bat films while utterly undermining and screwing up everything about Superman.
    Do they though? Superman has had big creators too. Morrison has been on Superman... Johns revitalized both Aquaman and Green Lantern but didn't do well on Superman. Now 'golden boy Bendis' is on Supes... Superman was the key in CoIE, Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis... Batman never really does a whole lot in the crossovers until this dark multiverse stuff came up...

    I'm not sure why these top respected writers can do so much for OTHER characters but are just kind of 'there' when they get on Superman...

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Batman sells more than superman.by that metric and the success attributed to the character's various incarnations.Yes,batman is more popular. Especially, in the comic book crowds.
    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Do they though? Superman has had big creators too. Morrison has been on Superman... Johns revitalized both Aquaman and Green Lantern but didn't do well on Superman. Now 'golden boy Bendis' is on Supes... Superman was the key in CoIE, Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis... Batman never really does a whole lot in the crossovers until this dark multiverse stuff came up...

    I'm not sure why these top respected writers can do so much for OTHER characters but are just kind of 'there' when they get on Superman...
    Morrison's run was great. But, the problem was nobody who came after didn't exactly buildup on that. New52 had problems. As for,geoff johns, he doesn't get anyother superman than donner "the messiah/boyscout " superman. Infinite crisis was all about shitting on goldenage superman. Which was dreadfull. As for bendis, he is said to be way past his prime. He is divisive cause he basically doesn't get tomasi's and Jurgen's run or ethos. Superman's problem isn't lack of ideas. It lack sustainable status quo. They don't allow the character to breathe and build, Constantly change directions.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-16-2020 at 10:08 PM.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Batman sells more than superman.by that metric and the success attributed to the character's various incarnations.Yes,batman is more popular. Especially, in the comic book crowds.


    Morrison's run was great. But, the problem was nobody who came after didn't exactly buildup on that. New52 had problems. As for,geoff johns, he doesn't get anyother superman than donner "the messiah/boyscout " superman. Infinite crisis was all about shitting on goldenage superman. Which was dreadfull. As for bendis, he is said to be way past his prime. He is divisive cause he basically doesn't get tomasi's and Jurgen's run or ethos. Superman's problem isn't lack of ideas. It lack sustainable status quo. They don't allow the character to breathe and build, Constantly change directions.
    I personally don't believe Bendis ever HAD a prime. I loved Ultimate Spider-man... but that's the only thing he's done that i ever even 'liked'. He is absolutely terrible with any kind of established continuity or characterization... he does alright when he's world building from the ground up... but is terrible playing with other people's toys.

    However, he is a 'big name' that got a lot of buzz. Hardly DC putting a second stringer on Superman while saving the A-list talent for Batman.

    Morrison was popular for a while there. I heard his run dropped once he got past the t-shirt and jeans 'prequel' stuff... but he didn't even last 20 issues. I personally think we need a decent writer with an actual love of the character... who will stick with it for at least 5 years straight. This rotating creative teams just sucks the life out of these properties.

  7. #22
    Mighty Member jb681131's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Morrison's run was great. But, the problem was nobody who came after didn't exactly buildup on that. New52 had problems.
    Wrong, Peter J. Tomasi on Batman & Robin New52 did a great job at continuing Morrison's story.
    And technically, the New52 was a reboot, so they had no real obligation to build on previous runs !

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    As for,geoff johns, he doesn't get anyother superman than donner "the messiah/boyscout " superman. Infinite crisis was all about shitting on goldenage superman. Which was dreadfull.
    How was he shitting on goldenage Superman ? And technically Golden Age Superman is not exactly Modern Age Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    As for bendis, he is said to be way past his prime. He is divisive cause he basically doesn't get tomasi's and Jurgen's run or ethos. Superman's problem isn't lack of ideas. It lack sustainable status quo. They don't allow the character to breathe and build, Constantly change directions.
    Whatever that means !?


    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I personally don't believe Bendis ever HAD a prime. I loved Ultimate Spider-man... but that's the only thing he's done that i ever even 'liked'. He is absolutely terrible with any kind of established continuity or characterization... he does alright when he's world building from the ground up... but is terrible playing with other people's toys.
    I guess you haven't read his Daredevil run then !

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    However, he is a 'big name' that got a lot of buzz. Hardly DC putting a second stringer on Superman while saving the A-list talent for Batman.
    Well it all depends what you call an A-list Talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Morrison was popular for a while there. I heard his run dropped once he got past the t-shirt and jeans 'prequel' stuff... but he didn't even last 20 issues. I personally think we need a decent writer with an actual love of the character... who will stick with it for at least 5 years straight. This rotating creative teams just sucks the life out of these properties.
    If you're talking about Morrison's Batman, he was reall good in his first few issues. Then I agree it dropped a bit, but stayed very. Then his Batman & Robin run was excellent and got good prayses. The Batman in Tim stuff wasn't that great, but I found his Batman Inc idea brilliant and well written.
    You know, popularity doesn't equal quality !

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb681131 View Post

    I guess you haven't read his Daredevil run then !
    Oh yes... i've read every word of it. Praying the entire time that it would be over and a better writer would take over. KIND of got that with Brubaker... but he was so far into a hole at that point that he had too high a hill to climb out. I'd had every issue of Daredevil from the 80's through him taking over the Hand and leading into Shadowland before i finally pulled the plug. Most of that was the long drawn out torture porn that Bendis was writing.

    It's an excellent example of a writer writing his own thing that just ISN"T the character he's supposed to be writing. He was trying to out-miller Miller without actually understanding the character. Might work for the Ultimate Universe Reboot... but not the traditional Daredevil.

    The key to Daredevil... is that he's the GOOD GUY. His world is gritty, his life kind of sucks, He gets knocked down and around and beat up.... but he always gets back up. He doesn't LET the world drag him down it's gritty reality... he lifts it up to his. He's the character that let's punisher escape, because he shot a criminal in the gut and he needs to get him to a hospital before he bleeds out. He's the one that fights inside the system and outside... The costume was never 'just an excuse to let out his rage and beat people bloody' He wrote him like HE was the punisher... or maybe wolverine. Daredevil can be a gritty book.... but Matt was still the hero. He used violence as a tool, but just as much as was needed and always with his senses tuned to know how much the thugs could take. More of a scalpel and less of a hammer.

    Bendis just pounded and pounded away at him and never showed him standing up. He randomly has him hook up with everyone... actually get married... then immediately have an affair. He actually has him utter the phrase 'I never though MY identity would get revealed... I thought it would Spider-man..." When his identity already HAD been outed a few years back. Worst of all... it was LONG... Drawn Out.... half the pages were just characters staring at each other in silence 'filling a mood' which was a slog buying them month to month. 3-4 months would go by with nothing of note happening.. The story never progressed.

    He had one idea that i really got excited about. The whole 'Pre-kingpin' Crimelord getting out of prison and taking the kitchen back. That had serious potential. It gives him similar stories to what he's had.... but with a whole new dynamic that wouldn't be just rehashing Fisk again. But then he killed him off right away. So y'know More disappointment. Worst part is that people take 'this' Daredevil as a new status quo. It's influencing everything now.... Ughhh...

    So yeah...Not a fan. Like you say later, Popularity doesn't equal quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by jb681131 View Post
    If you're talking about Morrison's Batman, he was reall good in his first few issues. Then I agree it dropped a bit, but stayed very. Then his Batman & Robin run was excellent and got good prayses. The Batman in Tim stuff wasn't that great, but I found his Batman Inc idea brilliant and well written.
    You know, popularity doesn't equal quality !
    I'll take your word on it. I just remember talking about how much they loved the 't-shirt Superman' but that was over too soon and the run went downhill after awhile.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb681131 View Post
    Wrong, Peter J. Tomasi on Batman & Robin New52 did a great job at continuing Morrison's story.
    And technically, the New52 was a reboot, so they had no real obligation to build on previous runs !


    How was he shitting on goldenage Superman ? And technically Golden Age Superman is not exactly Modern Age Superman.


    Whatever that means !?
    What do you mean? I wasn't talking about continuing Pre-Flashpoint stuff. I was talking about continuing the tone and direction morrison took with superman, which was more precrisis in nature and in the new52 itself . Even then, batman almost never gets rebooted.That's precisely a problem with superman.

    Calling the goldenage stories as simplistic and any guy who wants that superman to be nostalgia fanatic. Goldenage stories has more deth than the drama based "i am better than you. Since, i am the northstar. so, follow me" shit that superman has become.As if that's, more of a literary complexity. These guys wouldn't know it, if it bit them in them in a cave. Superman shouting on top of his lungs "dreams" doesn't make him any kind of symbol. It only makes him hollow figure to for others to beat up . It's pathetic how clark is writtern to throw a fit., when he doesn't get his way. I wasn't born in 1938 either.i got into goldenage guy because i was bored.As if all the shitting on wasn't enough.They killed the guy off. What an amazing send off folks. Claps!!

    Superman became this simplistic messianic figure who sprouts and preaches morality and shoves them down others,After comics code took over. That was during the beginning of silverage, not goldenage iteration. There is a damn difference. Silverage superman's revision of superman's origin story by bill finger started the character's change into what he is today. And these guys don't seem to understand the difference.

    It means bendis being on superman was'nt much celebrated or clamoured for. Bendis basically didn't follow much of anything tomasi and jurgen did. Comics are about taking a batton from someone else and carrying it forward . Superman writers largely doesn't get the luxury or some are like bendis who think previous writers works are just not upto par, so don't bother . Superman has been plagued with direction changes so much so that nothing gets built. While, batman's world gets bigger and better developed.


    This is what happens to superman. He is taken apart retooled and the origin story retold frequently. The character is a shell. Tell you what, put back the siegel and shuster origin and be done with it. Because that largely works in any era, Even if it's 2095.If the character isn't itself interesting then you are bound to do gimmicks. The original stories didn't have to resort to cheap gimmicks . These guys can't make superman interesting. They can only make him give sermons or nonsensical lines like "dream harder,shine brighter" or "hope is like car keys" and use gimmicks.The strongman vigilante from space is damn cool concept. Meanwhile, anime industry creates one punch man or all might or tons of other characters that can be traced back to the man of "action" or man of "might".

    Sorry for the rant. Overall, i am just bored with the character and i should'nt be. I shouldn't need to go back and read the older stuff to get excited about the character.This is the second time i been burned since starting reading the books in new52. First, they took apart new52 guy. I forgave that, because i thought jon and clois book was great. Then they changed even that direction. It's pretty pathetic what they do.First they killed of superman and now they killed off jon. And i am basically left with nothing.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-17-2020 at 02:35 AM.

  10. #25
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I mean, you should definitely read existing material if you want to enjoy and understand a character. That's how the medium works. The hiatus we have with new stuff is unfortunate because that's just as important in its way, but to rely on that means putting the idea of one showrunner over the program that ran for 80 years before they got there.

    Batman is a little easier to pick up and run with. I jumped on Detective with that Joker done in one last year and it's been easier than I can imagine it would be just picking up a recent issue of Action. But Superman is more rewarding than I think a lot of people recognize just thinking of his basic concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Do they though? Superman has had big creators too. Morrison has been on Superman... Johns revitalized both Aquaman and Green Lantern but didn't do well on Superman. Now 'golden boy Bendis' is on Supes... Superman was the key in CoIE, Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis... Batman never really does a whole lot in the crossovers until this dark multiverse stuff came up...

    I'm not sure why these top respected writers can do so much for OTHER characters but are just kind of 'there' when they get on Superman...
    That's exactly what I mean. Morrison, Romita, Snyder, Lee, Azzarello, Loeb... mostly all the same creators sooner or later. Often before. But I think Superman is just a more difficult character to work in general, so as you said in your other post they often can't last as long they do writing Batman, and their Batman work is often seen as superior.

    Sorry you didn't enjoy the Bendis Daredevil though. I think it happened to come along at the perfect time in my life but it's something I tend to recommend to anyone regardless.
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  11. #26
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Yes. And it's easy to blame Miller but DC went along with this themselves so it's not like it's any one thing. DKR was nearly 35 years ago. That was more than enough time to course correct. They did a high quality Batman cartoon that redefined the character for an entire generation. But when it came time to do a Superman spin off, they nerfed his powers so much he was less impressive than Batman. Ditto the JL cartoon that came out of that. Everyone else were Batman's sidekicks. The very existence of Batman Beyond speaks for itself. "Nope, we'd rather work on a cartoon about a future Batman than Superman or the JL. Oh, and Superman will be possessed by Starro just to make sure everyone knows who we like more". When it came time to reboot the Superman movies, they basically went the Batman route and made him "grim and gritty" and tried to pass it off as realistic. At one point, Batman had something like ten titles. He's had how many cartoons in the last 20 years alone? Superman had one that he had to share with the Legion. Superman has been rebooted how many times in the comics? Batman got to keep most of his history through nearly every reboot.

    Recently, they released a new BTAS comic and couldn't go three issues without making Superman look bad...again. They just can't help themselves. Batman gets all the best books and minis. Harley Quinn, DC's most popular character right now, is a spin off of a Batman character. They couldn't even do a BOP movie without shoehorning her in there. Now, there are some versions of Superman that have endured the last few years. Smallville, for instance. But even then, there was some gimmick. It wasn't just a straight up adaptation. The upcoming Superman & Lois sounds like it's more about their teenage sons than him. You know what the best adaptation of Superman was in the last decade or so? Brandon Routh playing the KC Superman in the Arrow-verse version of COIE. And he got maybe 20 minutes of screentime. At least it made Batman look like a jerk for once.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  12. #27
    Fantastic Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Cynically, I think another part of the reason Batman's overtaken Superman is that he's an easier character to market to children because he has all sorts of cool gadgets and vehicles that easily translate to merchandise.



    Conversely, Superman doesn't need a cool car or a jet or grappling pistol or a utility belt. There's a really great anecdote Kevin Smith had about when he was working on Superman Lives and how the producer wanted him to include stuff like Superman having a suit of high-tech battle armor and S-shaped shurikens just so they could make a bunch of toys to sell to the kiddies.
    Good point! I never thought about it from a marketing standpoint, but it makes total sense, you can simply market more toys and merchandise with Batman from the mask to the gadgets and vehicles, With Superman you have just have the suit, cape and fortress of solitude. Warner Brothers and affiliates have been pushing Batman over Superman for years.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Do they though? Superman has had big creators too. Morrison has been on Superman... Johns revitalized both Aquaman and Green Lantern but didn't do well on Superman. Now 'golden boy Bendis' is on Supes... Superman was the key in CoIE, Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis... Batman never really does a whole lot in the crossovers until this dark multiverse stuff came up...

    I'm not sure why these top respected writers can do so much for OTHER characters but are just kind of 'there' when they get on Superman...
    I think it's more that the big name creators that they put on him generally don't suit him. Morrison is the big exception and Superman is always in the best possible place when he has the reigns, but Johns always does an underwhelming Superman. But interestingly, he just kind sucks with the Trinity in general. His Batman and especially Wonder Woman are just as inconsistent/dull as his take on Supes. Bendis I kind of agree doesn't have much of a prime outside of his own characters.

    Meanwhile, some of the big name creators or well suited up and comers who seem like they WOULD be great on Superman are either over at Marvel (Hickman, Ewing) or not with the company and focusing more on the indy scene. It's lousy all around.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Yes. And it's easy to blame Miller but DC went along with this themselves so it's not like it's any one thing. DKR was nearly 35 years ago. That was more than enough time to course correct.
    I agree, completely. i firmly believe miller had a point. The character deserved every bit of the criticism levied at it. The creatives could have figured it out, instead superman creative went defensive mode. They would rather do something Where superman stands above everyone, Does his speech, Tries to be this untouchable example, falls flat on his face and throws a fit like a man child. Ultimately, writers themselves would give more importance to character than it deserves. It feels more like propaganda. That's not how you deconstruct and reestablish a character . It's a miracle the character is still being talked about at all. Has superman earned the symbol of hope title? No, i mean superman hasn't performed any feat any other hero can't . Is superman deserving of being called the northstar or what not? I don't think so. First treat the character as such. Quality sustainable runs and media representation would be welcome. Then let the readers themselves decide whether superman is the symbol of hope or northstar or what not.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    He most definitely is, he lapped him quite a while ago.
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