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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    Good point! I never thought about it from a marketing standpoint, but it makes total sense, you can simply market more toys and merchandise with Batman from the mask to the gadgets and vehicles, With Superman you have just have the suit, cape and fortress of solitude. Warner Brothers and affiliates have been pushing Batman over Superman for years.
    Ehhh... Only from an 'adult collector' kind of mentality. Marketing for DECADES have slapped labels on things that make zero sense for kids to buy. The fact that superman doesn't actually USE any of this special crime fighting gear wouldn't stop them from making it. Superman TAS had a TON of variants with special suits and armors that made no sense. Toy companies don't care.

    My personal favorite is the Hulk Copter....

    hulkhelicopter.JPG

    Cause y'know.... nothing says the iincredible Hulk... like his own personal helicopter!



    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That's not much of a specific answer. People thought steve was "a guy with a glorified Frisbee", years ago.Aside from that, clark fights for truth and justice as focus, instead of freedom which is steve forte. Ofcourse, there are overlaps as they are both idealists and Clark is a chain breaker as well. He doesn't like bullies and is the antithesis of totalitarianism . So, this notion that steve is interesting as an individual while clark isn't, is bizarre.
    I will say the 'man out of time' aspect really adds something to Steve that Superman doesn't have. They sometimes try to add that lonlieness/Alien aspect to him, but it kind of falls flat when he literally grew up in this world just like everyone else. Steve passed out with b-52a and woke up with space shuttles.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Between the Burton movies and helping to start the DCAU, his top dog status was cemented long before Nolan.
    I think Batman's popularity peaked in the 60's. Burton and Nolan did a lot for the character... but we can't discount the overwhelming power of Batmania. It may have been campy... but it was POPULAR!!! More so than the contemporary George Reeves series was. Also very popular... but was no Batmania!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I agree with a lot of the criticisms you made about Supes. Newspapers are dying. The idea of Middle America holding stronger morals than urban people is pretty laughable today in a way it might not have been during the crime epidemics of the 20th century. I don’t think making Clark a blogger was a bad idea at all, but maybe a podcast or whatever would be a better idea. Ultimately the core is that Supes likes to write because it puts him on an equal level with everyone else because his powers don’t help him there
    I don't know about that. One of the big differences is 'human contact'. Big City Urban populations get lost in a crowd. They may be in contact with 400 people a day on the subways, elevators, lines, etc... and never say a word or look at a person in the face. The small town people are more 'people-centric' where everyone knows everyone... and you help the community to thrive or everyone suffers, and its a lot easier to picture someone like Superman coming from THAT enviroment than growing up in a place like Metropolis and Gotham.


    As for 'ill defined'?? I don't really agree with that any more than a lot of other characters.... but the fact that so many of us argue over what we think Superman is and Should be as the 'right version'. really does say a lot.,
    Last edited by phantom1592; 04-17-2020 at 04:11 PM.

  2. #47
    Incredible Member blackbolt396's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    JOker did well since it wasn't playing off the comics. It wasn't based on everything. None of the other movies did well either. Man of Steel wasn't big, Justice League. The only one was Wonder Woman. Dc can't make hits. Right now their Animated movies and shows are generally better than their live action movies. Tv shows could be better also.
    Wow so Aquaman and Shazam didn’t do anything? Do you even know how many different DC shows we have as fans now? This is a great time to be a fan of comics, enjoy this time.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    The issue with saying Superman can't be adapted well to film is that it ignores that pretty much every Superman movie after II has some sort of obvious flaw or reason why it didn't go over as well as the studio hoped. Even the tone and violence of Man of Steel, as extremely divisive as it ended up being, was a very clear response to all those criticisms people had about Superman Returns being boring as hell. The issue is not Superman himself, he just needs the right take and creative team behind him.

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post

    .
    I knew they did it to Batman,
    I didn't realize they saddled Superman with so much garbage too.

  5. #50
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    I've already outlined the path to Superman being popular again. This is what should happen, at least for a run to see how it goes over.

    Get rid of Clark Kent. He's only Kal-El.
    His love interest is Maxima. You might want to redesign her a bit.
    He goes into outer space with Maxima and fights in War World tournaments.
    He loses the tournament and has to train to actually get strong enough to win.
    He wins the tournament and somehow takes over War World and rules with Maxima as his queen. Maxima is actually the one doing day to ruling since Superman isn't good at that.
    He uses War World in war with Apokolips.
    He is losing the war and begrudgingly turns to Zod for help (notice that Superman struggles in this story).
    Zod, who is clearly a much better tactician and strategist than Superman, turns the tide of the war.
    Things seem to be going well, with them winning the war, Zod behaving, and Maxima ruling War World unil...
    Zod betrays Superman and takes over War World in a coup. Superman and Maxima lose everything and have to escape.

    I bet if that happened and if it was executed really well, Superman would become ultra popular. and people wouldn't look at him as an outdated boy scout.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post

    I will say the 'man out of time' aspect really adds something to Steve that Superman doesn't have. They sometimes try to add that lonlieness/Alien aspect to him, but it kind of falls flat when he literally grew up in this world just like everyone else. Steve passed out with b-52a and woke up with space shuttles.
    Superman is an immigrant living with people that will never be able to comprehend what he sees, hears, feels... Etc. He grew up alone. He will always be on some level be seen with suspicious and fear. Those aspects isn't exactly present in steve, either. Heck! That's the whole point of the character. His struggle with fear. Even lois was terrified of superman the first time they met. And superman does have the potential,Make no mistake. He can be a gun.like the captain america movies say "steve is dangerous". Superman is also dangerous. An unyielding idealist should be perceived as dangerous,without it there is no umph!.winter soldier understood that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    I knew they did it to Batman,
    I didn't realize they saddled Superman with so much garbage too.
    You can call it garbage or whatever. Without a good, well defined world and his support cast to act as a foil. Batman is just a brooding jerk who thinks he is all that but really he is only a pathetic man child crying for mommy and daddy 24x7. I am being blunt, here. No malice. Batman would have been cancelled had it not for robin.They had to make the obsessed borderline psychotic bruce into heroic persona and have gordon do the heavy lifting for batman to work in dark knight movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I've already outlined the path to Superman being popular again. This is what should happen, at least for a run to see how it goes over.

    Get rid of Clark Kent. He's only Kal-El.
    His love interest is Maxima. You might want to redesign her a bit.
    He goes into outer space with Maxima and fights in War World tournaments.
    He loses the tournament and has to train to actually get strong enough to win.
    He wins the tournament and somehow takes over War World and rules with Maxima as his queen. Maxima is actually the one doing day to ruling since Superman isn't good at that.
    He uses War World in war with Apokolips.
    He is losing the war and begrudgingly turns to Zod for help (notice that Superman struggles in this story).
    Zod, who is clearly a much better tactician and strategist than Superman, turns the tide of the war.
    Things seem to be going well, with them winning the war, Zod behaving, and Maxima ruling War World unil...
    Zod betrays Superman and takes over War World in a coup. Superman and Maxima lose everything and have to escape.

    I bet if that happened and if it was executed really well, Superman would become ultra popular. and people wouldn't look at him as an outdated boy scout.
    I am sorry to say fighting a tournament wouldn't make him interesting. He has done all these things.the only thing i have an issue with, Superman isn't a ruler. He is the antithesis of a ruler. It goes against his very core to stand above everyone. It's also why i hate the messiah nonsense that's been shoved into the character in the garb of the (as you said) outdated boyscout thing. Clark is an idealist. He is the chainbreaker strongman. Its true, gladiators are one of the inspirations for the character. You could argue that spartacus and superman are born of the same mold.

    " I swear to be burned, chained, beaten or die by the sword in pursuit of honor in the arena"

    But ultimately, that's been thrusted on him. It's not a choice.He fights because he has to, it's his shield. If you want inspiration for superman there are tons of literary characters who are "the defenders of the defenseless" like clark. A scifi adventure the likes he has before done isn't going to be enough.

    Superman's problem is more rooted than that. Its dc and wb's whole attitude towards the character that needs to be changed.it would be no different if superman does become the king and still treated like batman's incompetent sidekick, with out any balls to kick the jackass with kryptonite across town.These idiots(i am including fans in that) need to realise that superman isn't built to contrast batgod. He is was the kickass strongman before batman ever existed.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-17-2020 at 11:29 PM.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Superman is an immigrant living with people that will never be able to comprehend what he sees, hears, feels... Etc. He grew up alone. He will always be on some level be seen with suspicious and fear.
    Honestly, I'm as tired of the forced 'immigrant concept' as you are of the 'space jesus' concept... and y'know... I also hate the Space Jesus push

    Nobody can hear, see, feel what Superman does... but it's all normal to him. He is who he is... and always has been. He looks, sounds, acts American... because his whole (for the most part) life he WAS American. He never REALLY has to deal with the same hurdles as 'true' minorities when he's a handsome, physically perfect white man. People may be nervous about what he could do... but that's not really the same thing. He was never REALLY alone. He had family, he had friends and girlfriends and school.

    He may have that 'Nobody understands what it's like to be MEEEEEE' thing going on. But on some level EVERYONE has that. That's not an immigrant thing. Almost every kid in America has bouts of 'I'm all alone and nobody understands what I'm going through'.... If anything that would make Superman MORE relatable.

    Though honestly, I much prefer a Silver age superman who revels in the amazing things he can do, Not lament them :P

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I've already outlined the path to Superman being popular again. This is what should happen, at least for a run to see how it goes over.

    Get rid of Clark Kent. He's only Kal-El.
    His love interest is Maxima. You might want to redesign her a bit.
    He goes into outer space with Maxima and fights in War World tournaments.
    He loses the tournament and has to train to actually get strong enough to win.
    He wins the tournament and somehow takes over War World and rules with Maxima as his queen. Maxima is actually the one doing day to ruling since Superman isn't good at that.
    He uses War World in war with Apokolips.
    He is losing the war and begrudgingly turns to Zod for help (notice that Superman struggles in this story).
    Zod, who is clearly a much better tactician and strategist than Superman, turns the tide of the war.
    Things seem to be going well, with them winning the war, Zod behaving, and Maxima ruling War World unil...
    Zod betrays Superman and takes over War World in a coup. Superman and Maxima lose everything and have to escape.

    I bet if that happened and if it was executed really well, Superman would become ultra popular. and people wouldn't look at him as an outdated boy scout.
    Yeeeeaaahhhh....no thank you. At least, not in the main continuity. Maybe as an Elseworlds.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 04-17-2020 at 10:31 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post






    I think Batman's popularity peaked in the 60's. Burton and Nolan did a lot for the character... but we can't discount the overwhelming power of Batmania. It may have been campy... but it was POPULAR!!! More so than the contemporary George Reeves series was. Also very popular... but was no Batmania!
    Ever since the 60s, we have had four Batman animated series (five if you count Batman Beyond even though the Batman there wasn't Bruce), two different film series with a third coming out and countless video games. The 60s don't even come close to this.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    To make Superman interesting (for me he's not because he's... overpowered) WB should make Clark Kent interesting. There's a journalist/writer/detective who can also do... lots of stuff and grew up really down to earth/grounded. Lois is sexy and strong, Jimmy is funny and human, Lex is Trump/WASP/elite, Intergang, Metallo, there you go

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Honestly, I'm as tired of the forced 'immigrant concept' as you are of the 'space jesus' concept... and y'know... I also hate the Space Jesus push

    Nobody can hear, see, feel what Superman does... but it's all normal to him. He is who he is... and always has been. He looks, sounds, acts American... because his whole (for the most part) life he WAS American. He never REALLY has to deal with the same hurdles as 'true' minorities when he's a handsome, physically perfect white man. People may be nervous about what he could do... but that's not really the same thing. He was never REALLY alone. He had family, he had friends and girlfriends and school.

    He may have that 'Nobody understands what it's like to be MEEEEEE' thing going on. But on some level EVERYONE has that. That's not an immigrant thing. Almost every kid in America has bouts of 'I'm all alone and nobody understands what I'm going through'.... If anything that would make Superman MORE relatable.

    Though honestly, I much prefer a Silver age superman who revels in the amazing things he can do, Not lament them :P
    Well, he was created by jews. One is from canada. He looks like a human that can be from anywhere. He was an american. But, he wasn't just an american. He has a past and world where he wouldn't have to act an like "the idiot" or change his name, in fear of repercussions . A world where he could be himself and people will easily understand.Also, many iterations have superman remember his world and culture. Many have him as kal el.

    And further, just because i said nobody understands him. Doesn't mean he sits around mourning in self pity about it like the bat does. It would be against the strongman ethics of the character, the stoic philosophy that created the character. The philosophy to smile through whatever pain, fear, insurmountable odds put in front of him. To get stronger by doing the things that matter and is useful. My statement was purely blunt statement.Nobody on earth will ever truly understand him. People will always prefer a human and choose him,largely. He would be scorned for his inherent differences and talents. But, that doesn’t mean a damn thing for clark. Because he is selfish enough to say that this is his world. If anyone has a problem with who he is, his past and his being on this world. Deal with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    To make Superman interesting (for me he's not because he's... overpowered) WB should make Clark Kent interesting. There's a journalist/writer/detective who can also do... lots of stuff and grew up really down to earth/grounded. Lois is sexy and strong, Jimmy is funny and human, Lex is Trump/WASP/elite, Intergang, Metallo, there you go
    You statements are rather vague and you are basically sprouting things that is already there. And Which clark kent? The fake clumsy persona or the real and true clark kent. Clark has been doing journalists stuff as you put it before batman existed. Lois is sexy and strong. She is skilled enough to fly a plane and kickass enough to kick any guy in the balls. Jimmy is not only funny. He is Clark's first sidekick.the original flamebird.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-17-2020 at 11:51 PM.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    You statements are rather vague and you are basically sprouting things that is already there. And Which clark kent? The fake clumsy persona or the real and true clark kent. Clark has been doing journalists stuff as you put it before batman existed. Lois is sexy and strong. She is skilled enough to fly a plane and kickass enough to kick any guy in the balls. Jimmy is not only funny. He is Clark's first sidekick.the original flamebird.
    Then recommend me something. I've read the odd Superman comic and All Star and Max Landis comic. Have you read Michael Chabon's The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier

  13. #58
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    I think Supes was more popular than Bats in the earlier days. If you think of anyone who has super strength and can fly then Superman would be the first on many people's minds. Bats becomes more popular gradually due to him being a superhero that is not what every other typical superhero is.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Then recommend me something. I've read the odd Superman comic and All Star and Max Landis comic. Have you read Michael Chabon's The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier
    I'd recommend the Superman stories by Alan Moore, Morrison's Action Comics run in the New 52, and the current mini-series for Lois Land and Jimmy Olsen.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Then recommend me something. I've read the odd Superman comic and All Star and Max Landis comic. Have you read Michael Chabon's The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier
    Birthright by Mark Waid, Grant Morrison’s New 52 Action Comics run, Superman Red Son by Mark Millar, Superman & The Legion of Superheroes by Geoff Johns, and Superman Smashes the Klan by Gene Yang. If you’re a Batman fan maybe Scott Snyder’s Superman Unchained?

    That said I’m not going to pretend that everyone who doesn’t like Supes simply hasn’t read the right books. For some people nothing about him will ever appeal to them. If you’re someone who doesn’t have much interest in science fiction than that’s a big indicator that Superman isn’t for you. I myself have read lots of X-Men books but for the most part I find them boring and unappealing. Only Morrison, Whedon, and now Hickman have kept me interested in them, so I totally get that there’s some characters who will never click and I’m fine with that. But I have to say I find the “overpowered” reason to be really stupid. Nobody actually believes some random thug is going to kill Batman in his books, that flat out is never happening. Most of Batman’s Rogues can’t even beat him in a straight up fight. He lives in a mansion and fights in a city that looks like it was designed by Satan. If you can relate to Bruce I don’t see why Clark is too alien (heh).

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