Is Batman more popular than Superman?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Superman? How far back can you go to find a Superman story that holds up today- that creators still revere, that we can point to as inspiration for a good adaptation? The most beloved is the Christopher Reeve film, which borrows the broad strokes from Siegel and Shuster, and invents the rest. And that was 40 years ago.

This is also why there are so few good Superman runs. He's hard to write, he demands both scale and heart, and for these and many other reasons few creators are up to the challenge. So stand-alone stories are the most revered - Alan Moore, All-Star Superman, Red Son, etc. In fact, on the animated All-Star DVD Bruce Timm told Grant Morrison he wished that story had existed before they made the 90s cartoon, because that was the story that really allowed Timm to "get" Superman. And Timm's a highly gifted storyteller and adapter of material, as well. Superman simply demands the very best of anyone who would dare write him.

I don't think that paints the most accurate picture of Superman comics. Aside from a lot of the standalone stories from Moore and the like, you still have runs from Kurt Busiek, Dan Jurgens, Louise Simonson, Elliot S. Maggin, Curt Swan, etc. that are considered at the very least definitive for the Superman character and are highly regarded among fans.

[LifeIsILL]

Also not to mention Roger Stern, Jim Starlin, Joe Kelly, John Byrne, J.M.DeMatteis, Jerry Ordway.

[Dr. Ellingham]

I don't think that paints the most accurate picture of Superman comics. Aside from a lot of the standalone stories from Moore and the like, you still have runs from Kurt Busiek, Dan Jurgens, Louise Simonson, Elliot S. Maggin, Curt Swan, etc. that are considered at the very least definitive for the Superman character and are highly regarded among fans.

I love Maggin, Busiek, Swan's work as well. And Cary Bates!

However only us old fans revere their work - or really remember it at all. And going back to my earlier point nobody's building their Superman template off of anything from Superman's dynastic past.

Which was my point - Superman is such a large concept, with a mythology that carries so many disparate elements. His true glory period was 75 years ago, and that was definitively over by the end of the 1980s. Since then? Lots of small-scale storytelling, stops, starts, rethinks, and using Superman as a prop to tell stories about other characters. Big blue deserves better. But he's difficult to do right by.

Batman is not. Batman is a compact concept: an angry street-level vigilante beating down enemies. That's an evergreen concept used all over TV/films.
Except Batman also has original, colorful antagonists as well. Which is why there are so many classic Batman stories - he's easier to write.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I love Maggin, Busiek, Swan's work as well. And Cary Bates!

However only us old fans revere their work - or really remember it at all. And going back to my earlier point nobody's building their Superman template off of anything from Superman's dynastic past.

Which was my point - Superman is such a large concept, with a mythology that carries so many disparate elements. His true glory period was 75 years ago, and that was definitively over by the end of the 1980s. Since then? Lots of small-scale storytelling, stops, starts, rethinks, and using Superman as a prop to tell stories about other characters. Big blue deserves better. But he's difficult to do right by.

Batman is not. Batman is a compact concept: an angry street-level vigilante beating down enemies. That's an evergreen concept used all over TV/films.
Except Batman also has original, colorful antagonists as well. Which is why there are so many classic Batman stories - he's easier to write.

But, doesn't that contradict the point you made earlier about Batman's success being built upon his famous runs from the past? After all, the O'Neil/Adams and Steve Engelhart runs on Batman were published decades ago.

Also, I'd say again that the fact that there are soooooo many Superman clones in the modern superhero landscape, from Sentry to Hyperion to Homelander to Apollo to Gladiator and beyond, evidence that Superman is also an evergreen concept. He is the epitome of a powerful demi-god type character that so many other characters have taken inspiration from.

[Dr. Ellingham]

But, doesn't that contradict the point you made earlier about Batman's success being built upon his famous runs from the past? After all, the O'Neil/Adams and Steve Engelhart runs on Batman were published decades ago.

My point there was that there were classic runs way back for Batman that not only stand up today, but have inspired adaptations. I would surmise the reason that isn't true for Superman is because he's much more difficult to write and adapt; otherwise where are all the classic runs that followed the Christopher Reeve film? The truth is that there aren't as many classic "runs" of Superman, despite his longstanding pedigree.

None of this is an indictment against Superman, but a recognition that the success that is to be found with Supes over the last 25-40 years has been in one-off prestige stories by top creators. And outside comics, completely unique adaptations - like Smallville was.

[manwhohaseverything]

But, doesn't that contradict the point you made earlier about Batman's success being built upon his famous runs from the past? After all, the O'Neil/Adams and Steve Engelhart runs on Batman were published decades ago.

Also, I'd say again that the fact that there are soooooo many Superman clones in the modern superhero landscape, from Sentry to Hyperion to Homelander to Apollo to Gladiator and beyond, evidence that Superman is also an evergreen concept. He is the epitome of a powerful demi-god type character that so many other characters have taken inspiration from.

Look at all the anime and manga ones as well. This idea that superman is hard and is pretty stupid. When these guys can make samurai jack, all might, astroboy, goku...etc.Not to mention the freakin One punch Man. The company just doesn't put the effort with superman like they do batman. As for villains, batman villains were as simplistic or more than superman once upon a time. Its not like mr. Freeze was always this tragic figure. Joker was mustache-twirling villain at one time as well.Coming to concept, A strongman defending the defenceless from the corrupt strong is a tale as old as time. It is fundamental to the very core of our being.

My point there was that there were classic runs way back for Batman that not only stand up today, but have inspired adaptations. I would surmise the reason that isn't true for Superman is because he's much more difficult to write and adapt; otherwise where are all the classic runs that followed the Christopher Reeve film? The truth is that there aren't as many classic "runs" of Superman, despite his longstanding pedigree.

None of this is an indictment against Superman, but a recognition that the success that is to be found with Supes over the last 25-40 years has been in one-off prestige stories by top creators. And outside comics, completely unique adaptations - like Smallville was.

He isn't more difficult to adapt. He requires more vivd imagination and style. If you aren't inspired you are going to fall flat on your face. See, superman hasn't had stylistic adaptation that takes in everything from 80 years. Batman had with batman tas. While, timm knows batman. He doesn't superman. Sure, he watched max fleischer cartoons. But, it takes more than that. Batman tas inspired various modern takes on the character.It cemented modern image of batman and might have even lead to dark knight trilogy . Otherwise,batman would have been in the same boat as superman. He had a humongous flop too.

If one punch man can exist and be interesting. I don't see why superman is hard.i would also like to point out, that superman being dependent on just the donner superman and its portrayal was also detrimental to the character. The character existed prior to that, there were tons of versions and lore to pick up.I haven't seen anyone aside from morrison or maybe wade even trying to access something from prior history. Moore himself wrote his stories on superman based on prior stories by siegel and shuster. You could say god fall was another one. But, it was also taking the same story moore did as base. And let's face it, the idea that anyone could do better than moore is none.The iron giant another adaptation that takes ques from an old superman story. Anyways, That's largely not happening now. Even when it does it requires you to bow to the expectations of saint like superman.

At the end of the day, the bane of superman's existence is reboots and this notion of retelling the origin again and again.They seem to not have have anything to make character itself interesting. So they tell an origin story. It's not like superman's origin ever mattered. It never did. What he did in Metropolis is what mattered.

[Kubert]

For some reason, SM Toys released two toylines. DC United. The other is Batman with his own toyline.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ction-figures&

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...s-new-toyline&

[superduperman]

For some reason, SM Toys released two toylines. DC United. The other is Batman with his own toyline.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ction-figures&

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...s-new-toyline&

But DC doesn't give Batman special treatment or anything. I mean, his arch nemesis got his own movie last year and he's got yet another reboot in the works but, sure, Batman doesn't get treated better than Superman.

[Holt]

He gets treated better in that department because his toys sell better, as I said previously. He's easier to merchandise than Superman by his very nature.

[manwhohaseverything]

He gets treated better in that department because his toys sell better, as I said previously. He's easier to merchandise than Superman by his very nature.

Or because superman is so mismanaged to death that a talking racoon and a tree can sell better now.Superman is a classical hero. He is the very hero archetype wrapped around in a strongman suit and a cape. It doesn't get easier to sell than that. His s has gotten known through out the world, in the most remotest places. that's despite wb and not because of it. It's wb's fault that they only see space jesus or space devil in that. Superman isn't a flybrick or the space jesus for bat-ubermensch to beat up on. It's a miracle at all that superman even sells.A balanced approach to handling properties was never DC's forte. Wonderwoman and the likes are treated worse. Marvel always did sell itself as the brand, better.The lack of rights to premiere characters only emphasised their philosophy .Meanwhile, dc sells itself as batman, joker, harley and some cronies.

[Holt]

We're talking two different things here. I'm talking about on how on literal, conceptual level, a dude with a utility belt full of cool gadgets and who has a fleet of cool vehicles like cars and planes is easier to build a toyline around, yes. If you look at the other side of the aisle you can see the same mileage Marvel's licensors get out of Spider-Man and Iron Man and all their variant armors and gadgets.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

My point there was that there were classic runs way back for Batman that not only stand up today, but have inspired adaptations. I would surmise the reason that isn't true for Superman is because he's much more difficult to write and adapt; otherwise where are all the classic runs that followed the Christopher Reeve film? The truth is that there aren't as many classic "runs" of Superman, despite his longstanding pedigree.

None of this is an indictment against Superman, but a recognition that the success that is to be found with Supes over the last 25-40 years has been in one-off prestige stories by top creators. And outside comics, completely unique adaptations - like Smallville was.

But again, I don't know if that's true. I'd say that the Nolan films are probably among the first if not the only Batman films that have really bothered to actually adapt Batman stories from the comics. Before that, the Batman movies largely just relied on the basic and generalized Batman mythos to craft their own stories much like the Superman films did. It was only since Batman Begins that WB has turned to stories like Year One, Long Halloween, Knightfall, Dark Knight Returns, etc. as source material. And that I think in large part is due to the fact that at that point DC saw Batman as their cash cow, as opposed to any inherent "adaptability" of Batman's stories as opposed to Superman's.

I mean, they did actually use significant parts from the Death of Superman arc in Batman v Superman, even though that movie wasn't the best-received by critics. However, it does go to show that WB has barely scratched the surface in terms of Superman stories that could be adapted to the big screen. There's nothing stopping them from adapting stories like Supergirl from Krypton or For the Man Who Has Everything or What's Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way or any number of classic Superman stories. The only issue is that it seems they have the perception that people don't want to see a Superman movie.

[superduperman]

He gets treated better in that department because his toys sell better, as I said previously. He's easier to merchandise than Superman by his very nature.

So are we headed for a future where everyone else are just Batman's sidekicks? Superman is just a Batman character alongside Robin or Nightwing? Speaking of toy lines, they released a toy line a few years back that was a Batman line but it had every other DC character. Superman, Green Arrow, Flash. But it was made very clear this was a Batman line. His name was on every package. And the rest of DC universe were just seen as secondary characters to his universe. Is that the future of DC? If Batman is their most marketable character, then Superman is just the Man at Arms or Fisto to his He-Man.

[manwhohaseverything]

We're talking two different things here. I'm talking about on how on literal, conceptual level, a dude with a utility belt full of cool gadgets and who has a fleet of cool vehicles like cars and planes is easier to build a toyline around, yes. If you look at the other side of the aisle you can see the same mileage Marvel's licensors get out of Spider-Man and Iron Man and all their variant armors and gadgets.

Okay, then why isn't wonderwoman or any of dc's tech based heroes like mr. Terrific or anyone really been sold like that. Metal men or doom patrol have have cool things to make toys out of as well. They aren't at the fore front of a push. As i said, dc's big idea is batman sells. So, dc is batman and cronies. Thank god! That doom patrol tv show came out that franchise is underrated. Just like many dc franchises. They never bother to make other character sell and get to atleast in a good position, if not equal to premiere characters. Someone in the comicpop had said that "marvel's idea is to use anything that sell. While, things that managemnet like will be sold". Well, i like to add to that. Marvel also tries to sell anything and everything they have. If something fails or needs work they rebrand like thor franchise.DC has destroyed tons of their own pulp fiction characters and superheroes on top of it. They can't even launch birds of prey without shoving in harley quinn.

Here is a thought experiment, what are would happen if batman wasn't with dc? They would sink like a boat. Here is another, what would happen if any of these ips get into the hands of any other studios? Yeah! They would try every way to make money out of it. Marvel was kicked out by major studios before ironman got made. now, ironman is a household name now. Do you think any of these ips can't get lucky like that with the right creative person on board? This isn’t just about toyline. It's about their general philosophy.

[Kuwagaton]

My point there was that there were classic runs way back for Batman that not only stand up today, but have inspired adaptations. I would surmise the reason that isn't true for Superman is because he's much more difficult to write and adapt; otherwise where are all the classic runs that followed the Christopher Reeve film? The truth is that there aren't as many classic "runs" of Superman, despite his longstanding pedigree.

None of this is an indictment against Superman, but a recognition that the success that is to be found with Supes over the last 25-40 years has been in one-off prestige stories by top creators. And outside comics, completely unique adaptations - like Smallville was.

It gets hard to understand the idea that it's about his stories not being "good enough" somehow when you think of the Joker starring in three major hits (the first two vs Batman) that aren't actually based on the comics even if they have Easter eggs. The last film was entirely a departure and arguably the most successful on different levels. Ragnarok as a Thor movie was also the largest departure from the comics and again the most successful.

Shouldn't it be credit to the strength of creative visions in their given medium over choosing what some see as an inherently better property?