Did comics code do damage to superman as a character?

[manwhohaseverything]

I strongly disagree. I think Bruce has been flatly abusive to the older ones on and off at least since the early 2000s, with some bits as early as the late 80s (he was good in earlier eras). Until Bendis, at least, Clark was a good dad since the bronze age. He was good to Chris and to Jon. Kara and Kon were never his children and he never had any sort of parental relationship with them. Especially with Kon - who was retconned in relationship-to-Clark and did not at all want Superman as a parental figure in any sense (nor did Clark owe him that) and they had a fine dynamic back then. I didn't like it being rewritten to crap on Clark, who did nothing at all wrong when Kon first appeared in the comics. I am excluding silver age shenannigans for both guys, because that's a whole different can of worms.

And yeah, Bruce gets called shitty (which he very much is), but it never lasts. Soemthing happens and his "kids" line up to take his orders again, despite how mistreated they've been in the past. The League always offers him a way back in. And most of the time the result "he was shitty for a good reason and way more right than everyone else" if it gets addressed in future. Others get crapped on to make his crappy behavior acceptable. See the retconned villainizatiom of all other JLA members in Identity Crisis. Including Superman. Like I said, it's popular to put him down and make him less moral (or less competent) in big events.

Doesn't matter if they were his children or not. These guys were pretty new to the world. Clark being their only relative baled on them. He doesn't give a damn about bizzaro either and has treated him badly. You also forget Mon el. Who stuck him in phantom zone? Good all clark.He basically forgets about chris till the guy comes back aged up.

It's comics and nothing ever lasts. Atleast it's acknowledged. When was clark called out for his shittness. Never. See that's, where you are wrong. The writers wanted more ambiguity in the era for their stories for adults. Seeing as everyone gets crapped on. It makes sense for them to treat batman as "redeemed". Aside from that, this only proves that bruces faults are still treat as just that in his own world.People generally do clap for dick when he decks him. The reason that isn't true for jl is because. Jl is written as a buch of moronic sidekick to batman's protagonist role.

[KC]

Well, then what do you call forcing an idea around so that it catches once? I call it propaganda. It has no grounds to stand on.He shouldn't be called The symbol of hope, only a symbol of hope. He is treated as the former. Which is bogus.

Correction, in fiction anything is possible that can be concieved by humanity and its mind. A morally impeccable being is not something that can be comprehensive to human minds. All those things you mentioned have real world inspirations. You can't create a character with all the so called moral rights. Why? There is no consensus on most among humanity. We can only get a general vague set moral rights.Have i said anything about that? We were talking about morally impeccable, not morally "good". Note-Good has tendency to be relative to an extent. Jesus is concievable like superman thereby proving my point that he isn't impeccable. Jesus could only provide general set of vague ideas such as "thou shall not kill, steal, lie.. Etc".These ideas fall apart in certain conditions.we live in a world of war, famine, death and disease.An impeccable beings ideas would work no matter what, with no faults.( Or so i imagine). Every system humanity has made has flaws. Think about it. There is a reason for that.We might be incapable of thinking of "impeccable morality" that can be translated into fictional worlds. Which is my point. If clark thinks he understands humanity then he must be arrogant. Because understanding humanity is not a herculean task, but something more ginormous . Many better than writers of superman have tried including the buddha. And that guy was called the enlightened one.

Precisely the point, it is basic. Some need it. But, does everyone? I don't think so. Furthermore, talking down to people as if they are infants might have opposite effects. Fair enough, you are happy with the ideas presented in superman. For me, mediocrity being served as priced dish is basically cheating. See,Modern superman has the same ethical core as the protagonists of full metal alchemist(if you haven't seen it). Modern superman presents the same ideas. Compare, superman and full metal alchemist. It's night and day. Furthermore, that's targeted at boys. Boy's comic or shonen. While superman is targeted for big dudes. Yet, superman can't keep up.

Except for the fact that Superman being a symbol off hope isn't forced. Like, at all. He is a symbol of hope to the people in the DC universe like most of their Superheroes. There isn't one symbol of hope.

The idea that humans can't conceive a morally impeccable being in nonsense. Strait-up unadulterated nonsense. There are strait-up basic things that almost every sane human knows is moral. And Superman believes in those moral things and he acts moral to show humanity the right way. The idea that "Jesus is conceivable like superman thereby proving my point that he isn't impeccable" is gold medal-worthy mental gymnastics. There are basic moral standards that should apply to anyone no matter the circumstances. They are simple and basic and they are what Jesus and Superman believe in, and yet they both understand humanity. The idea that to belive you understand humanity and what it can be is "arrogant" is not true. What humanity is and what it can be at it's very best is obvious and basic and Superman knows this.

Most people do need it, especially now. A reminder that kindness, compassion and helping people will always be needed and I think should always be welcomed. Superman doesn't talk down to people, he talks to them with compassion and a belief in them. It isn't "mediocracy" what Superman believes in is basic and it is what we should all be striving for in some way.

[Kuwagaton]

His contemporaries go for big ideas in their stories. Even, the hulk is given an unforgettable run. While, superman is facing problems answering the basic questions.

This is part of the modern problem. I want to share the triumph of Hulk and Ewing making it, through a decade with endless difficulty after Pak and the lack of recognition for the writer, but somehow this becomes another thing held against Superman. Any success seems to prompt the question of why Superman isn't more successful.

When comics were sold to kids primarily, that was a mass market. They sold in high numbers and they were available within walking distance of most homes. Prices were low (and second hand copies could sell for five cents), so there was no class division that restricted them to only some kids and not others. And they were brought into the home where everyone was likely to read them. It was the shift of the market to a primarily adult collector market that made them inaccessible to most people.

When people showed up to buy the Death of Superman issue (or the Death of Robin issue before that), it wasn't because they had been following these comics for the decade prior. It was because they remembered these comics from when they were kids and they felt compelled to get the comic where such major characters died. If they had been part of the select adult market they would have known those comics were a fraud.

If you want a character to be known to millions of people, you're best off capturing that audience early, when they're young. It's a bigger gamble trying to rope in adults to read stuff, after their peculiar interests have already been formed. We develop brand loyalty when we're very young and easily influenced by our social connections.

This is probably the most sound strategy, but personally I only came to like Superman over edgy characters like Hulk and Wolverine, and even similarly regarded characters like Cap and Cyclops, after I came to have a better understanding of the genre.

Along with the funds to buy as much as I could. Maybe people feel they have enough to understand from his most famous stories, but the ones commonly listed are like 1% of his content. But where some people call to go deeper and darker, that's what to me makes the difference in reader age. Kids have way too much to choose from to pick up a decent stretch of comics for one really old character and a lot of that stuff gets lost in them even if it's kid friendly.

[manwhohaseverything]

Except for the fact that Superman being a symbol off hope isn't forced. Like, at all. He is a symbol of hope to the people in the DC universe like most of their Superheroes. There isn't one symbol of hope.

The idea that humans can't conceive a morally impeccable being in nonsense. Strait-up unadulterated nonsense. There are strait-up basic things that almost every sane human knows is moral. And Superman believes in those moral things and he acts moral to show humanity the right way. The idea that "Jesus is conceivable like superman thereby proving my point that he isn't impeccable" is gold medal-worthy mental gymnastics. There are basic moral standards that should apply to anyone no matter the circumstances. They are simple and basic and they are what Jesus and Superman believe in, and yet they both understand humanity. The idea that to belive you understand humanity and what it can be is "arrogant" is not true. What humanity is and what it can be at it's very best is obvious and basic and Superman knows this.

Most people do need it, especially now. A reminded that kindness compassion and helping people will always be needed and I think should always be welcomed. Superman doesn't talk down to people, he talks to them with compassion and a belief in them. It isn't "mediocracy" Superman believes is basic and it is what we should all be striving for in some way.

Then why is it shoved in superman comics and not in wonderwoman comics or any other ?

You haven't provided anything that can be called evidence that humanity can provide something morally impeccable. It isn't mental gymnastics,its basic sense. You might think jesus is impeccable moral figure.I don't, for me he is another flawed figure or "only human" equal to anyone. His morality being treated as the morality is basically equal to being a drone .Yeah!you can say that "there are basic moral standards that apply to everyone no matter the circumstances".I call it very narrow. Are you going to tell a man who is going to die from hunger,Not to steal?Are you going to tell someone stuck in a war, not to kill? You can, but i wouldn't call it practical. Like humanity needs a guy from sky to teach them "right way". Like that has ever worked out in the past. I mean, we are getting stellar results with all the crusades and jihad. Like having moral authority being incharge of humanity's morals ever worked out.There was a reason for church and state to be divided. This mindless reliance on a moral authority has always only created rigid social norms that causes human suffering. If you want superman to be equivalent to a religion, Be my guest. Then i would be proven wrong. Superman wouldn't be like full-metal-alchemist. Because the character would never understand or know moral weakness or sin. It is very much arrogance to think of something as complex a humanity to be understandable that easily. It must be why we are yet to create true artificial intelligence. We are still stuck in automation state.As said, how can a humanity without understanding weakness or sin?


I don't believe that, i believe that kindness and compassion should be given to those that are worthy of it, Not everyone. And the man of action agrees with me. Don't believe me, read anything superman, really. The guy killed zod in almost all the continuities,except for donner.The guy defends the weak from the strong with fists.

Anyways, let's agree to disagree. I hate space jesus nonsense. This is the exact same thing me and @kuwagaton had chats on. And this conversation has proved that superman has become the saint figure. That would always put him at odds with the likes of Monkey D Luffy, goldenage superman and even batman, philosophically. The guy works where "god is dead". Ofcourse, the saint will be hollowfied and shunned.

[KC]

Then why is it shoved in superman comics and not in wonderwoman comics or any other ?

You haven't provided anything that can be called evidence that humanity can provide something morally impeccable. It isn't mental gymnastics,its basic sense. You might think jesus is impeccable moral figure.I don't, for me he is another flawed figure or "only human" equal to anyone. His morality being treated as the morality is basically equal to being a drone .Yeah!you can say that "there are basic moral standards that apply to everyone no matter the circumstances".I call it very narrow. Are you going to tell a man who is going to die from hunger,Not to steal?Are you going to tell someone stuck in a war, not to kill? You can, but i wouldn't call it practical. Like humanity needs a guy from sky to teach them "right way". Like that has ever worked out in the past. I mean, we are getting stellar results with all the crusades and jihad. Like having moral authority being incharge of humanity's morals ever worked out.There was a reason for church and state to be divided. This mindless reliance on a moral authority has always only created rigid social norms that causes human suffering. If you want superman to be equivalent to a religion, Be my guest. Then i would be proven wrong. Superman wouldn't be like full-metal-alchemist. Because the character would never understand or know moral weakness or sin. It is very much arrogance to think of something as complex a humanity to be understandable that easily. It must be why we are yet to create true artificial intelligence. We are still stuck in automation state.As said, how can a humanity without understanding weakness or sin?


I don't believe that, i believe that kindness and compassion should be given to those that are worthy of it, Not everyone. And the man of action agrees with me. Don't believe me, read anything superman, really. The guy killed zod in almost all the continuities,except for donner.The guy defends the weak from the strong with fists.

Anyways, let's agree to disagree. I hate space jesus nonsense. This is the exact same thing me and @kuwagaton had chats on. And this conversation has proved that superman has become the saint figure. That would always put him at odds with the likes of Monkey D Luffy, goldenage superman and even batman, philosophically. The guy works where "god is dead". Ofcourse, the saint will be hollowfied and shunned.

I wouldn't say it is shoved. He is a symbol of hope and is depicted as such.

Why couldn't humanity be able to? It is as simple as creating a character with all the basic morality components. Jesus is the archetypal impeccable morality character, one that is moral and understands humanity, Like Superman. Superman's morality is a lot more broad and basic than what you are implying and can apply to anyone no matter the circumstances. Being kind and helpful, understanding and forgiving is basic and is something that everyone could and should strive for. Not everyone does, and that is why Superman is needed, now more than ever. And equating Superman's morality to Jihadi extremists is so ridiculous that I am not even going to entertain it with a serious answer.

The issue here is not with Superman (or Jesus) it is with you. So I am willing to agree to disagree. At the end of the day, Superman is a kind, helpful figure that people could really learn from and try to emulate, and if the comics code helped make him like that, then the comics code did not damage him at all.

I assume this is this matter sorted as we agree to disagree and as such, I am going to leave this.

[manwhohaseverything]

This is part of the modern problem. I want to share the triumph of Hulk and Ewing making it, through a decade with endless difficulty after Pak and the lack of recognition for the writer, but somehow this becomes another thing held against Superman. Any success seems to prompt the question of why Superman isn't more successful.

No, it isn't a slight against superman. I was just lamenting the lack of bigger ideas in superbook, while a hulk book does. Furthermore, i was comparing superman with fullmetal alchemist. A story with protagonist that follow kantian ethics and ideas like superman . Which superman is all about, currently at the very least.

I wouldn't say it is shoved. He is a symbol of hope and is depicted as such.

Why couldn't humanity be able to? It is as simple as creating a character with all the basic morality components. Jesus is the archetypal impeccable morality character, one that is moral and understands humanity, Like Superman. Superman's morality is a lot more broad and basic than what you are implying and can apply to anyone no matter the circumstances. Being kind and helpful, understanding and forgiving is basic and is something that everyone could and should strive for. Not everyone does, and that is why Superman is needed, now more than ever. And equating Superman's morality to Jihadi extremists is so ridiculous that I am not even going to entertain it with a serious answer.

The issue here is not with Superman (or Jesus) it is with you. So I am willing to agree to disagree. At the end of the day, Superman is a kind, helpful figure that people could really learn from and try to emulate, and if the comics code helped make him like that, then the comics code did not damage him at all.

I assume this is this matter sorted as we agree to disagree and as such, I am going to leave this.

Well, why him and not others? What qualities does Superman poses that wonderwoman or martian manhunter doesn't?

Simple answer, humanity itself doesn't have any idea what are the components of morality. How it came to be or evolved exactly. Jesus isn't, there were hundreds of thousands before him. For starters - the buddha. No one man can understand humanity in one life. Those that do think that are either fools or arrogant . See, that's fine. Be kind, compassionate and forgiving. But, to whom?you can't be that to genocidal maniac. You can't compassionate to someone trying to relentlessly end you for who you are or what you believe in. Some people are just fighting for survival,living meal to meal. For some them , it would feel like condescension. There are extremely poor people in asia and africa who rather die with hunger, than steal or earn through dishonorable methods . Do you think superman has anything to teach them? Do you think they would want "compassion" from a man that could never truly know what's it like being in that state? Can superman know hunger, pain, disease, war.. Etc? He cannot. His compassion is worthless. Its hollow. I have read peace on earth. Superman's idea is teach them work. Brilliant idea, except that's hard to come by. Nobody chooses poverty. It would only come of as condescension against the less fortunate. It is in a way. Jesus and superman can never know weakness. Especially, moral weakness.

It's like this, i can't relate to or understand a tree. How can i teach it anything? I can't. Do i have anything to teach a tree? No. I am superman and the tree is people . The tree will grow in whatever direction it wants to or whichever way it sees sunlight. If i try to control that it will die. If i say i am the moral authority. The people should follow my example. Even if i am right,They do whatever i do without question . Is that even morality? It is basically being a drone or a dog.Human morality is better left in the individuals hands. It shouldn't be focused onto a point or figure. Why? Because it creates mob mentality. It creates rigidness.Making someone else moral authority over large group has had devastating consequences throughout human history.Regardless, do you really believe those that don't generally are compassionate are going to start being that because of the bible or superman? Nope, people only change if they intend to. Furthermore, i didn't equate superman to jihadi extremists. I only pointed out putting your morality in hands one person whomever that maybe is a bogus idea. It's the same idea that spread extremism you talk about. No man is perfect or impeccable.

Sharing self-evident ideas, as though they are great revelation is basically undermining your audiences and patting your back for more importance than you deserve. It has also always been asking for trouble. People get to hung up on it. Especially, those that want someone to be a moral authority for them. It's whole different deal if it's treated like simple ideas for setting yourself straight for people that can't. This is'nt like that.

I have no issue, mate. Just because your view of the world is limited to "kindness and compassion can save the world" like jesus says. Doesn't mean it's that simple. Otherwise, jesus would have done it already. I would recommend you read karamazov brothers by dostoevsky. Maybe you already have read it.

[KC]

No, it isn't a slight against superman. I was just lamenting the lack of bigger ideas in superbook, while a hulk book does. Furthermore, i was comparing superman with fullmetal alchemist. A story with protagonist that follow kantian ethics and ideas like superman . Which superman is all about, currently at the very least.

Well, why him and not others? What qualities does Superman poses that wonderwoman or martian manhunter doesn't?

Simple answer, humanity itself doesn't have any idea what are the components of morality. How it came to be or evolved exactly. Jesus isn't, there were hundreds of thousands before him. For starters - the buddha. No one man can understand humanity in one life. Those that do think that are either fools or arrogant . See, that's fine. Be kind, compassionate and forgiving. But, to whom?you can't be that to genocidal maniac. You can't compassionate to someone trying to relentlessly end you for who you are or what you believe in. Some people are just fighting for survival,living meal to meal. For some them , it would feel like condescension. There are extremely poor people in asia and africa who rather die with hunger, than steal or earn through dishonorable methods . Do you think superman has anything to teach them? Do you think they would want "compassion" from a man that could never truly know what's it like being in that state? Can superman know hunger, pain, disease, war.. Etc? He cannot. His compassion is worthless. Its hollow. I have read peace on earth. Superman's idea is teach them work. Brilliant idea, except that's hard to come by. Nobody chooses poverty. It would only come of as condescension against the less fortunate. It is in a way. Jesus and superman can never know weakness. Especially, moral weakness.

It's like this, i can't relate to or understand a tree. How can i teach it anything? I can't. Do i have anything to teach a tree? No. I am superman and the tree is people . The tree will grow in whatever direction it wants to or whichever way it sees sunlight. If i try to control that it will die. If i say i am the moral authority. The people should follow my example. Even if i am right,They do whatever i do without question . Is that even morality? It is basically being a drone or a dog.Human morality is better left in the individuals hands. It shouldn't be focused onto a point or figure. Why? Because it creates mob mentality. It creates rigidness.Making someone else moral authority over large group has had devastating consequences throughout human history.Regardless, do you really believe those that don't generally are compassionate are going to start being that because of the bible or superman? Nope, people only change if they intend to. Furthermore, i didn't equate superman to jihadi extremists. I only pointed out putting your morality in hands one person whomever that maybe is a bogus idea. It's the same idea that spread extremism you talk about. No man is perfect or impeccable.

Sharing self-evident ideas, as though they are great revelation is basically undermining your audiences and patting your back for more importance than you deserve. It has also always been asking for trouble. People get to hung up on it. Especially, those that want someone to be a moral authority for them. It's whole different deal if it's treated like simple ideas for setting yourself straight for people that can't. This is'nt like that.

I have no issue, mate. Just because your view of the world is limited to "kindness and compassion can save the world" like jesus says. Doesn't mean it's that simple. Otherwise, jesus would have done it already. I would recommend you read karamazov brothers by dostoevsky. Maybe you already have read it.

As I said, the issue here is you and your view of the world, not Superman and what he is. With your view of morality, you will never get what Superman currently is. I am obviously not going to be able to show you how Superman is a morally impeccable character, why that is a good thing or why that is necessary. So I will do as you said and agree to disagree. Fill free to try and keep this going but I am going to turn the other cheek.

[manwhohaseverything]

As I said, the issue here is you and your view of the world, not Superman and what he is. With your view of morality, you will never get what Superman currently is. I am obviously not going to be able to show you how Superman is a morally impeccable character, why that is a good thing or why that is necessary. So I will do as you said and agree to disagree. Fill free to try and keep this going but I am going to turn the other cheek.

Dude! I have read gandhi and his books. If he cannot change me. I doubt you can. Why? Just type in gandhi's letter to hitler. I am always willing or flexible.You just haven't presented an argument to support your claim. My morality is largely superman's morality under the pen of those that genuinely get the character like moore, Morrison, waid, siegel and shuster.. Etc.

See, this is what happens when superman follows "hey! Kids" thing. That isn't superman,but bizaaro - a caricature superman. There is a reason for it. If you wish to make superman a caricature of himself like in The justice league movie or many of the comics and especially some from geoff johns. Be my guest. But, ultimately a person's morality isn't limited to kindness and compassion.There are more intrinsic things, some are can even be called dark and primal.

If you've actually read the bible you would know that jesus fails and decides to come for a second round. He only saves those elites that are morally strong according to him. For the rest, he becomes judge, jury and exectioner. There is a reason for that. There is a reason for all the superman is evil stories. Why batman becomes his fundamental foe. These guys(saints) all fail.before jesus, moses did,zarathustra did.. So on and so forth. Its the reason nietzsche basically depicts these guys failing as well. Before zarathustra goes away in nietzsche's book. He sees an omen. An eagle with snake wrapped around his neck and both being at peace flying into the sunset. If you are into jesus and bible. You would know what a snake/dragon represents and what the eagle represents. True, morality cannot exist without understanding that seven deadly sins are also an integral part of man. Ignoring the sins inside one doesn't make one strong, it only makes one weak.You need to be both the phoenix and the dragon. You can't just settle for the eagle or the phoenix .

You can't just say yang is all i need. You need the yin too. I have said this before, a character being written to not know himself is bound awaken the shadow in him .Superman is written exactly like that. Superman is great with eagles. But, he sucks when it comes to snakes.


Edit-@kuwagaton i had said, luffy and current superman would be fundamentally at odds. Thes motifs will tell you why D clan are fundamentally againts the "God" or "Messiah"?
This is marco "the phoenix" saving luffy from justice.

This happens through out marineford.

This luffy with momonosuke "the dragon" fighting the pirates.
See what i mean, these motifs have meanings. See what i meant by conflict in the middle. Luffy fights both pirates and marines.he isn't ignorant of himself, both of his sides. Superman currently only chooses only one side.You could argue that was had started with truth, justice and american way Or superman 14.You wouldn't be wrong. But, superman as character didn't need contrivances to explain simple things back then. Furthermore, fighting the artic giant was still very much part of the character.

[KC]

Dude! I have read gandhi and his books. If he cannot change me. I doubt you can. Why? Just type in gandhi's letter to hitler. I am always willing or flexible.You just haven't presented an argument to support your claim. My morality is largely superman's morality under the pen of those that genuinely get the character like moore, Morrison, waid, siegel and shuster.. Etc.

See, this is what happens when superman follows "hey! Kids" thing. That isn't superman,but bizaaro - a caricature superman. There is a reason for it. If you wish to make superman a caricature of himself like in The justice league movie or many of the comics and especially some from geoff johns. Be my guest. But, ultimately a person's morality isn't limited to kindness and compassion.There are more intrinsic things, some are can even be called dark and primal.

If you've actually read the bible you would know that jesus fails and decides to come for a second round. He only saves those elites that are morally strong according to him. For the rest, he becomes judge, jury and exectioner. There is a reason for that. There is a reason for all the superman is evil stories. Why batman becomes his fundamental foe. These guys(saints) all fail.before jesus, moses did,zarathustra did.. So on and so forth. Its the reason nietzsche basically depicts these guys failing as well. Before zarathustra goes away in nietzsche's book. He sees an omen. An eagle with snake wrapped around his neck and both being at peace flying into the sunset. If you are into jesus and bible. You would know what a snake/dragon represents and what the eagle represents. True, morality cannot exist without understanding that seven deadly sins are also an integral part of man. Ignoring the sins inside one doesn't make one strong, it only makes one weak.You need to be both the phoenix and the dragon. You can't just settle for the eagle or the phoenix .

You can't just say yang is all i need. You need the yin too. I have said this before, a character being written to not know himself is bound awaken the shadow in him .Superman is written exactly like that. Superman is great with eagles. But, he sucks when it comes to snakes.


Edit-@kuwagaton i had said, luffy and current superman would be fundamentally at odds. Thes motifs will tell you why D clan are fundamentally againts the "God" or "Messiah"?
This is marco "the phoenix" saving luffy from justice.

This happens through out marineford.

This luffy with momonosuke "the dragon" fighting the pirates.
See what i mean, these motifs have meanings. See what i meant by conflict in the middle. Luffy fights both pirates and marines.he isn't ignorant of himself, both of his sides. Superman currently only chooses only one side.You could argue that was had started with truth, justice and american way Or superman 14.You wouldn't be wrong. But, superman as character didn't need contrivances to explain simple things back then. Furthermore, fighting the artic giant was still very much part of the character.

.............

As I said, the issue here is you and your view of the world, not Superman and what he is. With your view of morality, you will never get what Superman currently is. I am obviously not going to be able to show you how Superman is a morally impeccable character, why that is a good thing or why that is necessary. So I will do as you said and agree to disagree. Fill free to try and keep this going but I am going to turn the other cheek.