Something I've been thinking about with Harley

[Castiel]

So I know that when she broke up with Joker it was revealed he had other Harley's before her but I don't think this has been referenced before or since and considering Punchline is different from Harley in looks I'm guessing maybe either Joker was lying or maybe just maybe Harley hallucinated the whole thing or Amanda Waller messed with Harley's head to get her to come back to the Suicide Squad or something. All I'm saying is I don't like the push to make Harley into some sort of anti hero and I think maybe it'd be best to make her less sympathetic by showing she's just as crazy and delusional as Joker and I think a good way to do that would be to retcon some of what's been done to her as either a delusion or her flat out lying.

Some might say this would destroy her character but I think it would improve her a lot. Like she's in an interrogation room and is playing victim saying she was forced by Joker (who escaped and isn't there) to help with a job or whatever and after a long investigation Batman just stares her down and tells her to drop the act that she's been lying about being back with Joker and injured herself and it's slowly revealed she's playing victim and is trying to manipulate everyone to take it easy on her. I think this would really fit Harley because given her background as a psychologist I can see her being manipulative and not really a victim of anything and yes I know many would hate this but I'd actually like if Joker's view of her was explored and it was shown from his point of view she was very manipulative and purposely provoked him and even to an extent got off on his abuse.

I'm not even saying she'd have to get back with Joker but I'd like to see her be written in a way that makes her less sympathetic and yes I get she comes across as a victim but as I rewatch the BTAS as an adult it gets hard to feel sorry for her because she's clearly in a position of power as a doctor seeing the Joker and this is something that upsets me a lot many assume she's being manipulated by Joker but why can't it be a mutual manipulation? Like she knows Joker is manipulating her and decides to let it happen because she knows she can cry victim when she's caught. I say this because she's part of a lot of heinous crimes and there's no excuse for her to really be let off the hook so I feel she should be retconned as being as manipulative as Joker and perhaps she should be re-imagined as a charismatic narcissist who is with Joker because he puts her in the spot light and constantly goes back to him when her spotlight starts to fade.

[lilyrose]

She should never be let off the hook for being an accomplice to and an enabler (AND a perpetrator!) of his heinous crimes. They were her crimes too! She killed people. She enjoyed it. She never gave a **** about who suffered and died because of her. She never expressed remorse later on, and she never had any hesitation during.

This has ALWAYS been my problem with trying to turn her into an antihero. She cannot be. She's completely amoral and her actions were way too horrible. I don't care that she's a victim of abuse- she wasn't being held prisoner. She WANTED to be with him and she encouraged every bad thing he ever did.

That's not a character that can be redeemed.

[Tzigone]

I agree she should not be an antihero and definitely not a hero. I think she is and should be a villain. I do think, however, she should have been molded into what she was by the Joker rather than knowingly signing up for the gig. That's an origin that doesn't need to be rewritten (even if it already kinda has been). She was abused by him after they were together. She was a victim once - doesn't stop her from being a predator, too. Then again, maybe I'm thinking too much of TAS Harley, who I did think had a shot at redemption and healing. But she's gone too far and done too much for it to sit right with me now.

Also, heroes should not willingly work with her and most definitely should not pal around with her.

[Gaius]

I agree she should not be an antihero and definitely not a hero. I think she is and should be a villain. I do think, however, she should have been molded into what she was by the Joker rather than knowingly signing up for the gig. That's an origin that doesn't need to be rewritten (even if it already kinda has been). She was abused by him after they were together. She was a victim once - doesn't stop her from being a predator, too. Then again, maybe I'm thinking too much of TAS Harley, who I did think had a shot at redemption and healing. But she's gone too far and done too much for it to sit right with me now.

Also, heroes should not willingly work with her and most definitely should not pal around with her.

Yeah, it was beyond infuriating in Injustice how the supposed good guys led by Batman allowed Harley Quinn anywhere near them given her role in the start of the series.

[lilyrose]

I agree she should not be an antihero and definitely not a hero. I think she is and should be a villain. I do think, however, she should have been molded into what she was by the Joker rather than knowingly signing up for the gig. That's an origin that doesn't need to be rewritten (even if it already kinda has been). She was abused by him after they were together. She was a victim once - doesn't stop her from being a predator, too. Then again, maybe I'm thinking too much of TAS Harley, who I did think had a shot at redemption and healing. But she's gone too far and done too much for it to sit right with me now.

Also, heroes should not willingly work with her and most definitely should not pal around with her.

She's a victim AND a villain. She just is. People have a hard time understanding that yes, you can be both of these things.

[Castiel]

She should never be let off the hook for being an accomplice to and an enabler (AND a perpetrator!) of his heinous crimes. They were her crimes too! She killed people. She enjoyed it. She never gave a **** about who suffered and died because of her. She never expressed remorse later on, and she never had any hesitation during.

This has ALWAYS been my problem with trying to turn her into an antihero. She cannot be. She's completely amoral and her actions were way too horrible. I don't care that she's a victim of abuse- she wasn't being held prisoner. She WANTED to be with him and she encouraged every bad thing he ever did.

That's not a character that can be redeemed.

Exactly I get what it's like to be an abuse victim you feel trapped and **** but there were so many times she could have cut ties with Joker and some of her crimes were with Ivy so he shouldn't get all the blame for her actions.

I agree she should not be an antihero and definitely not a hero. I think she is and should be a villain. I do think, however, she should have been molded into what she was by the Joker rather than knowingly signing up for the gig. That's an origin that doesn't need to be rewritten (even if it already kinda has been). She was abused by him after they were together. She was a victim once - doesn't stop her from being a predator, too. Then again, maybe I'm thinking too much of TAS Harley, who I did think had a shot at redemption and healing. But she's gone too far and done too much for it to sit right with me now.

Also, heroes should not willingly work with her and most definitely should not pal around with her.

Yeah I feel like people think of her as poor innocent Harley because of the Animated Series but even there it's hard to feel bad for her case in point when she was worried about him the newspaper literally read "Joker still at large casualties continue to rise." or something like that. While cute and funny as a kid as an adult that's just not something I can over look or forget and I find it disturbing someone like that who disregards others over a sadistic mass murderer can be seen as redeemable.

Yeah, it was beyond infuriating in Injustice how the supposed good guys led by Batman allowed Harley Quinn anywhere near them given her role in the start of the series.

True I'm surprised heroes on Batman's side didn't toss her into a cell instantly.

She's a victim AND a villain. She just is. People have a hard time understanding that yes, you can be both of these things.

Nobody is dismissing that but it doesn't make her redeemable or let her off the hook. It's like saying a bad childhood gives a bad guy a free pass.

[Osiris-Rex]

Exactly I get what it's like to be an abuse victim you feel trapped and **** but there were so many times she could have cut ties with Joker and some of her crimes were with Ivy so he shouldn't get all the blame for her actions.

Yeah I feel like people think of her as poor innocent Harley because of the Animated Series but even there it's hard to feel bad for her case in point when she was worried about him the newspaper literally read "Joker still at large casualties continue to rise." or something like that. While cute and funny as a kid as an adult that's just not something I can over look or forget and I find it disturbing someone like that who disregards others over a sadistic mass murderer can be seen as redeemable.

True I'm surprised heroes on Batman's side didn't toss her into a cell instantly.

Nobody is dismissing that but it doesn't make her redeemable or let her off the hook. It's like saying a bad childhood gives a bad guy a free pass.

Harley is sort of like those women who go to prison because their boyfriend was beating her children. In most cases she was being beaten too and felt trapped but in the eyes of the law she didn't stop it so she is just as guilty.
Another twist on this is when the woman finally has enough and kills her abuser, she usually gets life in prison. Because hey, you could have just left him. He was such a good guy and she is just an evil bitch. But if she doesn't
kill him first, he tracks her downs and she often ends up dead. So sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Abuse isn't just physical abuse either. There is sexual abuse - forcing sex, emotional abuse - undermining self worth - self esteem, economic abuse - making one financially dependent, Psychological Abuse - using fear and intimidation,
threatening harm to other person, self, children or other family members. Joker was pretty much guilty of all five and we often get to see what happens to Harley when she doesn't follow his orders or she tries to leave.
So yeah, Harley has done some pretty messed up things. But would she have done them if she hadn't suffered years of abuse and manipulation by Joker?

[Tzigone]

So yeah, Harley has done some pretty messed up things. But would she have done them if she hadn't suffered years of abuse and manipulation by Joker?

I think "pretty messed up things" is an understatement. And would she have done them without the Joker and years of abuse - depends on the version. Sometimes she had issues years before. Also, the first time she helped the Joker escape Arkham she hadn't been physically or sexually abused by the Joker (as far as I know - I haven't read all the versions of that story, and am mostly thinking of the B:TAS and early comic version) and certainly hadn't been abused by the Joker for years as she hadn't been there that long. And, of course, Joker plays multiple-choice background - maybe he was similarly abused and is equally guilty/not as Harley for evil actions? Maybe the person before him was, too, and the one before that? Should we regard him as primarily a victim then?

Because hey, you could have just left him.

Harley could have left and not seen the Joker again after the first session that made her uncomfortable, long before any abuse (at least in B:TAS version, if I recall correctly). That's just the reality of situations as originally presented when Harley was introduced - he was imprisoned and she was not. He escaped only with her help. I think - in truth I can't recall the episodes well enough, but I don't think he ever escaped without her aid the first time.

That she didn't is a testament to either her own already-existing vulnerabilities, the Joker's abilities in manipulation, and/or her professional hubris making her think herself immune. I really think she has more in common with a cult-member who turns to performing atrocities than a typical abused partner (which she also is), particularly in terms of initial recruitment. Or maybe more like the prison guards who get pregnant by an inmate . I mean she knew he was killer before she set eyes on him, which is presumably unlike a lot of cult members (don't know much about the more violent cults). He wasn't a guy who she thought was a nice, non-abusive person who suddenly turned bad on her later. She had the information to know he was bad before her emotions got involved.

So sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

True, in a sense. But since she's already displayed a willingness to murder (and would thus go to prison for it), why not murder him? I mean, from a fear-of-consequences sense. She'd be a lot more likely not end up in prison for killing him than for killing innocent people. No one's gonna say he was a good guy. Of course, I know you aren't saying situations are exactly the same. And I'd say the reason she didn't, at least in the early stories, was not out of fear to the Joker, but loyalty to him. Hence my cult member comparison.

Though I suppose there's the argument that in her world, one could never be certain dead is dead.

Obviously trauma (and non-trauma, really) shapes a person's actions. Some have a better shot at turning out normal/non-criminal than others based on environment (genetics, too, but that's a different issue). But, unless one is truly mentally incompetent, that really doesn't absolve them of their actions. We try to understand it, ideally stop it from repeating, but that doesn't make the perpetrators not predators.

[Mistah K88]

Harley is sort of like those women who go to prison because their boyfriend was beating her children. In most cases she was being beaten too and felt trapped but in the eyes of the law she didn't stop it so she is just as guilty.
Another twist on this is when the woman finally has enough and kills her abuser, she usually gets life in prison. Because hey, you could have just left him. He was such a good guy and she is just an evil bitch. But if she doesn't
kill him first, he tracks her downs and she often ends up dead. So sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Abuse isn't just physical abuse either. There is sexual abuse - forcing sex, emotional abuse - undermining self worth - self esteem, economic abuse - making one financially dependent, Psychological Abuse - using fear and intimidation,
threatening harm to other person, self, children or other family members. Joker was pretty much guilty of all five and we often get to see what happens to Harley when she doesn't follow his orders or she tries to leave.
So yeah, Harley has done some pretty messed up things. But would she have done them if she hadn't suffered years of abuse and manipulation by Joker?

Er...I'd actually compare Harley more with the Charles Manson women like Susan Atkins than a woman who just looked the other way when a man she was associated with did horrible things out of misguided self preservation. SHE didn't just not stop the "boyfriend" in beating the theoretical children, she PARTICIPATED and beat the children herself too. She is a victim, sure, but she isn't as much of a victim as people think she is, especially the reason she got tangled with the Joker in the first place is because she wanted to take advantage of a mentally ill man (sure it's debatable how "crazy" either of these people are but from what she knew he was a sick man). It gets to the point where "he made me do it" starts to lose credence.