Villains - redeemable and not (end game)

[marhawkman]

But in the end it's like with "The Choice" (old Superman story that I liked a lot). Superman fought 4 villains and offered each of them a once in a lifetime offer to join the Justice League. All of them were people with weak reasons for being villains. Superman asked them if they really wanted to be a supervillain, and if being a hero might satisfy their goals better. But he can't make the choice for them.

In the case of Major Disaster(the only one who accepted) he just wanted to not be broke. He was in the villain game to make money, and the money was too hard when you have guys like Superman stopping you from stealing it. So he was like: "fine, give me a paycheck and I'll superhero for you."

Scorch may have turned him down, but she never went back to being a full villain. In one story she even sacrificed herself to save the Justice League(but mostly Martian Manhunter).

[Agent Z]

I totally agree with the comments that say the Cheetah should be cursed but somehow not want to be saved (especially by Diana). But I don't feel Diana is stupid for keep trying to do it. More than fantasy, these are stories that should evoke hope and high morality values. Besides, I strongly believe that we do good more for ourselves and to achieve our real potential rather than purely for the sake of others.* Even if Barbara doesn't want to be saved, Diana still gets something out of her pursuit of hope and friendship. At the moment she gives up, she becomes a different person.


*I mean that not in a selfish way, of course. Mark Waid has a very good essay about self-fulfillment and Superman that explores this same idea.

There isn't anything hopeful about trying to redeem someone who is clearly irredeemable. Nor is their any high moral value in ignoring such a person's crimes and disrespecting the memory of their victims. Diana isn't a bad person for knowing a lost cause when she sees one, it just means she's smart.

[Joao]

There isn't anything hopeful about trying to redeem someone who is clearly irredeemable. Nor is their any high moral value in ignoring such a person's crimes and disrespecting the memory of their victims. Diana isn't a bad person for knowing a lost cause when she sees one, it just means she's smart.

As I said, I believe we are talking high, idealized morality when we deal with superheroes. So the statement "she will never give up on her friend" has some impact, even if it's not practical or executable in real life.

[PopQuezy]

As I said, I believe we are talking high, idealized morality when we deal with superheroes. So the statement "she will never give up on her friend" has some impact, even if it's not practical or executable in real life.

I don't want to belabor the point, and this will be my last time speaking on this. I don't see this as "idealized morality" but extremely dangerous rhetoric and propaganda. "Never give up on [a] friend" can and will get people emotionally and physically harmed, and it can be a tool of manipulation to force people to remain in toxic and abusive relationships. It is wonderful if Diana can help someone who wants help, but if they choose not to seek that help, Diana's mission should be saving that person's victims. Some people can not be saved. It is not a moral failure of Diana's if she recognizes that. I would argue it is a moral failure if she can't recognize the difference.

[The Overlord]

Most versions of the Cheetah, Silver Swan, and Giganta could probably be given how many either created to have some sympathy towards them or later rebooted to be. Veronica Cale and both versions of Dr. Cyber also could be. Of course this is essentially the entire point of Paula von Gunther.

Ares has shown potential in opening arcs of the Perez run, Jimenez run, and second Rucka run. I also think it works well towards Diana's purpose as a hero that she can convince a mad War God to ultimately see the error of his ways. Not something Superman can say about someone like Darkseid or Batman with Ra's.

Most versions of Circe, Dr. Poison, and Dr. Psycho probably are not.

To be fair, the Dr. Psycho we see in the Harley Quinn cartoon is more redeemable than usual, where he is still sexist, but more of a goofy idiot than a monstrous villain and cares about other people outside of himself.

[Gaius]

To be fair, the Dr. Psycho we see in the Harley Quinn cartoon is more redeemable than usual, where he is still sexist, but more of a goofy idiot than a monstrous villain and cares about other people outside of himself.

I don't watch the show so I can't comment on that version.

[jetengine]

To be fair, the Dr. Psycho we see in the Harley Quinn cartoon is more redeemable than usual, where he is still sexist, but more of a goofy idiot than a monstrous villain and cares about other people outside of himself.

No, dudes a rapist. During the talkshow bit Giganta says he mind controlled her for years in their relationship

[marhawkman]

I'd actually like to see them do a redemption arc for Deva. the way her life is filled with empty rage now, it feels like she should be ready to do something new.

[The Overlord]

No, dudes a rapist. During the talkshow bit Giganta says he mind controlled her for years in their relationship

Fair enough, I forgot that. He also tormented his son to make him a better supervillain, he does seem like he can empathize more than comic book Psycho can, comic book Psycho asked for seconds when he found out Vandal Savage was feeding him human flesh, animated Psycho went out of his way to save Poison Ivy. Animated Psycho is still a bad person (the most immoral member of the team, besides maybe Sy Borgman who is a war criminal), but he is less actively monstrous than his comic book counterpart.

[Ascended]

Giganta should be redeemable. I'd very much like to see the return of her relationship with Ryan Choi. I don't see Giganta becoming a hero, but I think she'd offer a lot more as a former villain rather than as a current one.

The Doctors Cyber, Poison and Psycho should not be redeemable. I think there's an interesting avenue with Cyber; is she just an awful, selfish and angry person, or is it her programming that prevents her from changing? I think Poison and Psycho are just monsters who don't want to change.

Cheetah, I like the idea of her eternal struggle and addiction to the curse. She's bouncing up and down the spectrum, but never finds redemption or recovery for long. There's a lot to work with there, and ways to make Diana continue to support and attempt to help without making her a gullible fool or anything.

Circe and the gods I don't want being redeemable. The gods are the embodiment of particular forces; they can't change what they are. Circumstance and situation might make them friend or foe in the moment, but at the end of the day Ares and Zeus and the rest are what they are, they can't change that the way people can.

But the real issue here is the long-form nature of comics. Redeem a good villain and you've lost a quality rogue, and those don't grow on trees. So I'd suggest allowing the vast majority of Diana's biggest rogues to remain villains, while smaller, lesser known ones like Angle Man can go through redemption arcs without really hurting the rogues gallery.

Take just one of the bigger villains (like Giganta) and redeem them, then have any other redeemed villain be someone the average comic fan wouldn't know, a villain who is unlikely to get enough use to ever be a staple. That way Diana can redeem some people without her stash of villains (which is under-developed in the first place) taking a serious hit.

[kjn]

When it comes to Circe, I think the best avenue would be for stupid men who tries to go seduce or harass her, and then Diana has to go there and jump through hoops to release them.

[Mel Dyer]

It seems that no matter what you do with her, it changes nothing. Cheetah just seems so ridiculous to me. In that sense, I don't see how her redemption would change anything for the WW comic.

It has already been established that the Cheetah thing was something Barbara Minerva did to herself to acquire physical power and immortality, to further a larger agenda--being the apex predator on a wild Earth. That's fine. I just don't see how her evil ambition distinguishes her, as the bane of Wonder Woman - the super-villain, whose mere consideration keeps Diana up, at night. For me, the 'fallen friend' thing seems ..not enough.

If Cheetah gets what she wants...what? Seriously, ..WHAT happens? Global kitty litter shortage? What...what exactly does Cheetah want that changes everything, everywhere, ..FOREVER? What does Cheetah want that Diana feels uniquely appointed to stop? That is my biggest problem with her, as an arch-nemesis.

So, though I can't imagine who would want to work with her, ..I think Cheetah is redeemable in the sense that redeeming her really doesn't change much for Wonder Woman. Think about it. You can totally take Cheetah off the board, and it would make absolutely no difference in the Wonderverse, whatsoever. We certainly can't say the same thing of Luthor, Doctor Doom or the Joker.

I'm not sure she is forgivable, though.

[Psy-lock]

It seems that no matter what you do with her, it changes nothing. Cheetah just seems so ridiculous to me. In that sense, I don't see how her redemption would change anything for the WW comic.

It has already been established that the Cheetah thing was something Barbara Minerva did to herself to acquire physical power and immortality, to further a larger agenda--being the apex predator on a wild Earth. That's fine. I just don't see how her evil ambition distinguishes her, as the bane of Wonder Woman - the super-villain, whose mere consideration keeps Diana up, at night. For me, the 'fallen friend' thing seems ..not enough.

If Cheetah gets what she wants...what? Seriously, ..WHAT happens? Global kitty litter shortage? What...what exactly does Cheetah want that changes everything, everywhere, ..FOREVER? What does Cheetah want that Diana feels uniquely appointed to stop? That is my biggest problem with her, as an arch-nemesis.

This hasn't been her motivation for at least half a decade. Her current motivation is getting rid of the gods, which should have big consequences not only for Diana but also for the world.

[SiegePerilous02]

It seems that no matter what you do with her, it changes nothing. Cheetah just seems so ridiculous to me. In that sense, I don't see how her redemption would change anything for the WW comic.

It has already been established that the Cheetah thing was something Barbara Minerva did to herself to acquire physical power and immortality, to further a larger agenda--being the apex predator on a wild Earth. That's fine. I just don't see how her evil ambition distinguishes her, as the bane of Wonder Woman - the super-villain, whose mere consideration keeps Diana up, at night. For me, the 'fallen friend' thing seems ..not enough.

If Cheetah gets what she wants...what? Seriously, ..WHAT happens? Global kitty litter shortage? What...what exactly does Cheetah want that changes everything, everywhere, ..FOREVER? What does Cheetah want that Diana feels uniquely appointed to stop? That is my biggest problem with her, as an arch-nemesis.

So, though I can't imagine who would want to work with her, ..I think Cheetah is redeemable in the sense that redeeming her really doesn't change much for Wonder Woman. Think about it. You can totally take Cheetah off the board, and it would make absolutely no difference in the Wonderverse, whatsoever. We certainly can't say the same thing of Luthor, Doctor Doom or the Joker.

I'm not sure she is forgivable, though.

This is no longer canon, it was wiped out with the New 52. And honestly, good riddance. And it's not as if Lex or the Joker have ambitions that would change things forever if they got their way, they've gotten by with just being intensely personal pains in the asses for their respective heroes since forever.

Cheetah being removed would change the Wonder Verse far more than most of her other villains considering she's one of the few iconic ones she has that can be counted on one hand.

[Mel Dyer]

So, are we saying that Cheetah cannot be or should not be redeemed, because she is essential to the on-going narrative? I can't say that I agree with you, even with the new, god-hunter motivation. If Cheetah were fully redeemed and joining Diana and Etta, as the grumpy, sexy character in the WW comic, with mannie-peddy time, every other issue, ..I'm not sure how that would adversely affect stories, going forward.

It might even help.

Can't redeem Ares, because he's a cosmic force.