Villains - redeemable and not (end game)

[Agent Z]

Why?

Because there is no point in wasting time on a futile mission. Yes helping people is part of being a superhero but this has to be done within reason. If someone outright refuses to change their ways no matter how many times Diana extends the olive branch, that person is officially a lost cause. Being a hero does not mean being a doormat. Furthermore, it starts to look like Diana has no compassion for the villain's victims.

And don't forget that Zeus has a dual nature: god of the sky and storm, but also as king of the gods. His actions towards women stems from that aspect.

Yeah, people who abuse and harm others often see it as their right because of their privilege. That's not exclusive to gods.

[Tzigone]

Why?

One thing to remember here is that superhero stories are essentially fantasies, and the want and need for social connections, for friendship, for helping people, and for not giving up is part of that. We are social animals, and helping and assisting others is part of that.

She looks like an idiot because she keeps doing the same thing with the same person expecting different results. Because, most likely, her continued attempts leading to more people getting hurt/killed (or almost so if Diana manages to avert it). Because she ignores evidence. Because Diana doesn't learn anything. She decides she's right about this person changing and then keeps on believing it and trying to change them despite all evidence they don't want to or are unwilling to do so. For decades. Wanting to help is fine. Being able to some is great. But ignoring evidence that there are those who don't want to change or are unwilling to to change even after they've shown that over and over and over and over again just makes her look willfully blind. Like the woman who really believes her boyfriend won't cheat again after the third time or the guy who he believes he can convince the guy down the street to give up a life of crime, even though the guy has refused and robbed him (or agreed and still continued to rob others) several times before. Might be indicative of a kind or caring nature, but at some point, one just looks gullible.

I've said it before on other characters/boards - a hero giving someone a second chance can be great, but them giving someone a twenty-eighth chance is not.

Yes, the Olympian gods (like most polytheistic gods) are personifications of concepts and natural forces, but there is nothing simple about that. Ares is war and battle, but also courage and physical strength. Poseidon is the sea and the earthquake. And don't forget that Zeus has a dual nature: god of the sky and storm, but also as king of the gods. His actions towards women stems from that aspect.

I fundamentally disagree. I don't think the gods are usually like that at all. Their myths are usually much bigger on petty, personal (and much more entertaining) bits. I don't see how his attitude towards women stems from that. Or the Apple of discord and the fight resulting having anything to with Athena's godly duties. They, despite their godhood, are usually depicted as motivated by very human emotions.

[Gaius]

I fundamentally disagree. I don't think the gods are usually like that at all. Their myths are usually much bigger on petty, personal (and much more entertaining) bits. I don't see how his attitude towards women stems from that. Or the Apple of discord and the fight resulting having anything to with Athena's godly duties. They, despite their godhood, are usually depicted as motivated by very human emotions.

Yeah, I can see the argument for beings like Darkseid being beyond our comprehension but the Greek Gods even in our real world myths have always been characterized with very human attitudes.

[kjn]

She looks like an idiot because she keeps doing the same thing with the same person expecting different results. Because, most likely, her continued attempts leading to more people getting hurt/killed (or almost so if Diana manages to avert it). Because she ignores evidence. Because Diana doesn't learn anything. She decides she's right about this person changing and then keeps on believing it and trying to change them despite all evidence they don't want to or are unwilling to do so. For decades.

Where you see a stupid Diana, I see writers who are unable to write anything but regurgitated action with the same villains over and over again.

[Restingvoice]

Both Silver Swans yes
Dr. Psycho absolutely not
Ares and Veronica Cale I don't know.
Circe... is not about whether she can be redeemed or not but more like I don't want her to... I want her to keep being a troll

[Zahina]

She looks like an idiot because she keeps doing the same thing with the same person expecting different results. Because, most likely, her continued attempts leading to more people getting hurt/killed (or almost so if Diana manages to avert it). Because she ignores evidence. Because Diana doesn't learn anything. She decides she's right about this person changing and then keeps on believing it and trying to change them despite all evidence they don't want to or are unwilling to do so. For decades. Wanting to help is fine. Being able to some is great. But ignoring evidence that there are those who don't want to change or are unwilling to to change even after they've shown that over and over and over and over again just makes her look willfully blind. Like the woman who really believes her boyfriend won't cheat again after the third time or the guy who he believes he can convince the guy down the street to give up a life of crime, even though the guy has refused and robbed him (or agreed and still continued to rob others) several times before. Might be indicative of a kind or caring nature, but at some point, one just looks gullible.

I agree. Also Wonder Woman is supposed to be as wise as Athena. Wonder Woman should never be seen or written as a idiot, ignorant, and naive.

[Tzigone]

I agree. Also Wonder Woman is supposed to be as wise as Athena. Wonder Woman should never be seen or written as a idiot, ignorant, and naive.

Ah, well, I don't like WW as wise as Athena* (or granted gifts by goddesses that other Amazons don't have - I want her to be one of them, not above or have extra bestowed upon her and she can gain her wisdom along the way). But I do want her to be intelligent. While not my preferred version, the naive movie version (and learning and still caring about humanity) worked well.

*I actually don't think the stories make Athena sound very wise, despite her role. But then Solomon really isn't, either (he did like one wise thing).

[WonderScott]

In my Wonder Woman Series Bible Thingee I’m writing, I’ve brought back Transformation Island and given it an origin of sorts to explore this very topic. (I’m proud of what I came up with for this Amazon archipelago.)

Redemption, or not redeeming oneself, is core tenet of Wonder Woman’s mythology from the beginning and based on the psychology and potential mental health issues of some of her friends and foes, worthy of exploration in the modern age of what we know now versus what Dr. Marston understood then.

Besides, we deserve another and different way to explore these issues than Arkham Asylum. (Which has been done to death.) By her very nature, Diana is built to explore these complexities.

[mathew101281]

The problem with redeeming villains is that, do to the creator rights situation, good new villain aren’t being created at the same rate that old ones are being redeemed. Going to often to the redemption arch can deplete a rogue’s gallery really fast in modern comics.

[Tzigone]

The problem with redeeming villains is that, do to the creator rights situation, good new villain aren’t being created at the same rate that old ones are being redeemed. Going to often to the redemption arch can deplete a rogue’s gallery really fast in modern comics.

I agree. And, of course, there's the issue of writers/editorial getting bored (for many villains, there's not much to actually do with them once redeemed and so they cease to bring much value to the story/company - a few might make it as heroes, but not all) and so they end up evil again. And then their fans might not get to see them again, so they'd be disappointed. In some cases redemption might be considered a waster of a good villain - though it matters to me more how much the redemption or not serves the hero. In stories with an end (unlike most ongoing comic books), those redemption have less downside.

I'd not redeem more than 3, both for not depleting the rogues gallery and for not getting repetitive on stories. Of course, then there are the questions of when to redeem them and how bad they were before redemption.

[WonderScott]

I kind of like the idea of some redemption arcs though, especially if they’re part psychological mystery/thriller. In that some redemptions might surprisingly take while others attempts might just be a ploy against Diana.

[kjn]

Ah, well, I don't like WW as wise as Athena* (or granted gifts by goddesses that other Amazons don't have - I want her to be one of them, not above or have extra bestowed upon her and she can gain her wisdom along the way). But I do want her to be intelligent. While not my preferred version, the naive movie version (and learning and still caring about humanity) worked well.

*I actually don't think the stories make Athena sound very wise, despite her role. But then Solomon really isn't, either (he did like one wise thing).

Note that "wisdom" has changed in meaning. Today we often take it to have implications of being judicious, sensible, or being able to make the correct decisions. But in ancient times, "wisdom" meant knowledge, especially esoteric, magical, or hidden knowledge.

Pérez's take on how Diana received her gifts worked, but frankly I prefer Rucka's take where Diana first became the champion and only then received the gifts.

[Joao]

I totally agree with the comments that say the Cheetah should be cursed but somehow not want to be saved (especially by Diana). But I don't feel Diana is stupid for keep trying to do it. More than fantasy, these are stories that should evoke hope and high morality values. Besides, I strongly believe that we do good more for ourselves and to achieve our real potential rather than purely for the sake of others.* Even if Barbara doesn't want to be saved, Diana still gets something out of her pursuit of hope and friendship. At the moment she gives up, she becomes a different person.


*I mean that not in a selfish way, of course. Mark Waid has a very good essay about self-fulfillment and Superman that explores this same idea.

[PopQuezy]

I totally agree with the comments that say the Cheetah should be cursed but somehow not want to be saved (especially by Diana). But I don't feel Diana is stupid for keep trying to do it. More than fantasy, these are stories that should evoke hope and high morality values. Besides, I strongly believe that we do good more for ourselves and to achieve our real potential rather than purely for the sake of others.* Even if Barbara doesn't want to be saved, Diana still gets something out of her pursuit of hope and friendship. At the moment she gives up, she becomes a different person.

I agree. However, I would argue she becomes a better person. There is nothing noble about trying to save someone who has informed you in unequivocal terms that they do not want nor need your help. Eventually, you are no longer trying to help the person, but you are attempting to play God with their lives. I also think wanting to help someone because of what it says about you instead of wanting to help them achieve their best selves is selfish, foolish and the sign of a hero complex.

It's noble that Diana wants to save Cheetah. However, Diana must recognize the limits of this desire. If she does not, it will eventually destroy her. If not physically, definitely emotionally and morally.

[marhawkman]

I totally agree with the comments that say the Cheetah should be cursed but somehow not want to be saved (especially by Diana). But I don't feel Diana is stupid for keep trying to do it. More than fantasy, these are stories that should evoke hope and high morality values. Besides, I strongly believe that we do good more for ourselves and to achieve our real potential rather than purely for the sake of others.* Even if Barbara doesn't want to be saved, Diana still gets something out of her pursuit of hope and friendship. At the moment she gives up, she becomes a different person.

Yeah in the end Diana tried to SAVE Deva rather than trying to kill her.