Villains - redeemable and not (end game)

[Ascended]

I think Cheetah's redemption would hurt the iconography more than it'd hurt the in-continuity narrative.

Diana doesn't have a major, super well known villain like the Joker or Lex, but Cheetah is still Diana's most well known foe. Take her off the board and you limit an already under-developed rogues gallery.

I'm not saying it can't be done, and Cheetah has rarely added much to the larger story, but I think we'd be better off building her up as a villain. There's other bad guys who can be saved and redeemed, Cheetah's too close to iconic to waste like that.

[Mel Dyer]

I think Cheetah's redemption would hurt the iconography more than it'd hurt the in-continuity narrative.

Diana doesn't have a major, super well known villain like the Joker or Lex, but Cheetah is still Diana's most well known foe. Take her off the board and you limit an already under-developed rogues gallery.

I'm not saying it can't be done, and Cheetah has rarely added much to the larger story, but I think we'd be better off building her up as a villain. There's other bad guys who can be saved and redeemed, Cheetah's too close to iconic to waste like that.

I would have to agree with you on rehabbing Cheetah, with more focus on the threat of Barbara Minerva and how/why Diana is uniquely suited to be her enemy. I don't think the WW comic's already dysfunctional use of its rogues - Diana's actually got some first-class rogues that no one knows what to do with - should be compounded, by the redemption of its most recognized super-villain. I would prefer a rehab that made her more essential to the mythos, ..instead of just another super-freak.

Diana is a freedom-loving Amazon, who loved freedom enough to leave her free, all-female utopia and become the champion of the world, that once enslaved her sister Amazons. For my money, she has had few natural enemies (Doctor Psycho, Grail, Atomia, Queen of Fables, newly rehabbed Warmaster and Circe, etc), whose villainous ambitions would bother Diana, more than say ..an Angle Man, Cheetah or Mouse Man. The more Cheetah becomes Diana's natural enemy, the more her going from bad to good hurts the mythos.

In that sense, maybe, the WW comic can't afford her redemption, ..but, is she forgivable? Even after Mala rehabilitates her into a good person, can we accept her, as such? If we cannot [See 'Zeus'.], ..does her redemption really matter?

[WonderScott]

In my development of Wonder Woman characters, I’ve identified several adversaries that go down a redemptive path. Not all of them are going to make it, because DRAMA. But, “redemption” is such a huge story theme for the basis of the original character, that I think it needs to be explored continually and in different ways with the character.

What I’m learning is you have to be very narcissistic and severely angry and extremely fearful not to accept the empathy, kindness, and love Diana offers you, but then I look at our current world and see that it happens every dang day by hateful people to kind people.

[SiegePerilous02]

So, are we saying that Cheetah cannot be or should not be redeemed, because she is essential to the on-going narrative? I can't say that I agree with you, even with the new, god-hunter motivation. If Cheetah were fully redeemed and joining Diana and Etta, as the grumpy, sexy character in the WW comic, with mannie-peddy time, every other issue, ..I'm not sure how that would adversely affect stories, going forward.

It might even help.

Can't redeem Ares, because he's a cosmic force.

Like Ascended said, Cheetah's iconography prevents her from being permanently redeemed or killed off. That's how these things work, for better or worse.

I don't really get why these arguments only seem to ever apply to Cheetah. He can't be redeemed, but if you killed the Joker off at this point it wouldn't adversely affect stories going forward. That would actually help the Bat-books going forward, at least the way they insist on writing them now, because you wouldn't have the slasher villain clown piling up bodies left and right while nobody does anything about it.

It's not like any of her villains consistently add to the wider story more than she does anyway. Ares is vital for the origin, but he doesn't add much beyond that. The rest are either on the same level as her, or waaaaay below.

[Ascended]

I
In that sense, maybe, the WW comic can't afford her redemption, ..but, is she forgivable? Even after Mala rehabilitates her into a good person, can we accept her, as such? If we cannot [See 'Zeus'.], ..does her redemption really matter?

I don't think people would accept a redemption. They'd always be waiting for the other shoe to drop and for Barbara Ann to return to her villainous role. I think fans might enjoy a brief respite and seeing Cheetah from a different perspective, but at the end of the day, we consider her a villain and will demand she fill that role. We see that happen with Lex; how many times has he gone "good" only to slide back? Now, that *can* be useful; the idea of a villain almost finding redemption but ultimately refusing to change is a viable narrative...but you kinda have to build that into the character, otherwise it's just flip-flopping without feeling organic; it looks like bad writing instead of a morally questionable yet interesting character. If anyone has read the Wheel of Time, it's like Lanfear, who came close to turning her back on the Shadow several times but could never bring herself to take that last step.

I think the real question, which you (and others I think) brought up already, is the "why" of Cheetah. The great villains are always twisted parallels of the hero; Joker is chaos to Batman's order, Lex is humanity's self-interest while Clark is humanity at it's most selfless (there's a lot of political stuff between those two, but this isn't the place for that). So what is Cheetah to Diana?

Dr. Psycho is everything wrong with mankind; what Diana strives against on a philosophical level, Psycho embodies. Ares is war to Diana's peace. The lines these characters draw that bring them into conflict with Diana are clear, and we can see why these guys stand against what Diana stands for. But with Cheetah, things are a lot more blurry. If Diana is everything right about feminism, is Cheetah everything that's bad about it? Probably not, Circe is sort of in that space already. Is Cheetah the manifest risk and hunger of divine forces that care nothing for humanity, while Diana represents benign, divine intervention? Maybe, but if we want to see the negative impact of the gods on mankind we have Ares and Zeus and, basically, the entire Greek pantheon.

Cheetah can't be redeemed, but her role needs to be better defined.

For villains who *can* be redeemed, we have a mountain of lesser known foes who haven't been seen or used to any worthwhile effect in forever. I think we could get a whole lot of mileage out of those guys; bring them back, develop them, make them cool, fun villains....and then have Diana turn them back to the light. Since these foes have been non-factors for so long, redeeming them doesn't really cost us anything, but we stand to gain a lot. And of course, we have Giganta, who's one of Diana's most well known villains but doesn't really have any purpose. The last time she was interesting was when she was dating Ryan Choi, and since Giganta doesn't really represent anything as a villain that we need to keep in the mythos, her redemption would be a big notch in Diana's belt, the "big time" villain who gets redeemed, while the others are (potentially) just lesser known foes like Mouse Man who nobody cares about.

[SiegePerilous02]

Dr. Psycho is everything wrong with mankind; what Diana strives against on a philosophical level, Psycho embodies. Ares is war to Diana's peace. The lines these characters draw that bring them into conflict with Diana are clear, and we can see why these guys stand against what Diana stands for. But with Cheetah, things are a lot more blurry. If Diana is everything right about feminism, is Cheetah everything that's bad about it? Probably not, Circe is sort of in that space already. Is Cheetah the manifest risk and hunger of divine forces that care nothing for humanity, while Diana represents benign, divine intervention? Maybe, but if we want to see the negative impact of the gods on mankind we have Ares and Zeus and, basically, the entire Greek pantheon.

I don't know if she represents all that's bad about a twisted form of feminism, but Cheetah does tie into some feminist themes. Going back to the Golden Age, Priscilla Rich was a woman who managed to thrive within the patriarchy by going along with the messages that we still pedal to girls and women: be popular for having glamorous beauty and/or wealth to attract the attention of men, and absolutely step all over other women to climb to the top*. But along comes Diana who effortlessly wins over everyone's love and attention just by being herself, and actively speaks out and is trying to change the patriarchy. Priscilla's descent into becoming the Cheetah, specifically a feline identity, represents stereotypical "cat fights," hair pulling, clawing each others eyes out, etc, because both she and the patriarchy are threatened by Wonder Woman's mere existence. Thankfully, while Diana views the Cheetah as a menace, she refuses to stoop down to her level and tries to help her via the Amazons, who exist outside the patriarchy. Sidebar, but if anyone has seen the 2016 film the Neon Demon, Abby Lee's character of Sarah gave me MAJOR Priscilla Rich vibes.

I think it's pretty telling that as cool as Perez's Barbara Minerva was, the character never really came together until Rucka folded in some of Priscilla's classic envy. Now while she isn't envious over petty things like Wonder Woman being more beautiful and getting the attention of men, she is envious of Diana's blessings from the gods and longs to be part of that world herself. But while Diana is favored by the Gods, Barbara is cast down and cursed as a monster for seeking to empower herself, and is specifically punished for her sexuality. She is a victim of the patriarchy (represented by Gods), but instead lashes out at another woman trying to help her. If a good writer can explore the dynamic further, maybe there are ways to further reconcile the two takes? The composite Rebirth Barbara Ann is the best version of the character, I'd hate to see the momentum slow down even further since Rucka left. Though Veronica Cale also covers a lot of this ground. I've grown to sort of love the two of them as Diana's two biggest personal nemeses in Man's World (who of course also try to kill each other).

*I would totally watch/read a Bachelor season/comic with Priscilla Rich as a one of the women. She would be absolutely ruthless and I'd tune in every week for that dumpster fire

[WonderScott]

Some gut-reaction quick hits on redeem-ability, based on my favorite portrayals of some Wonder foes:

Priscilla Rich: Yes
Deborah Domaine: Yes
Barbara Minerva: No
Veronica Cale: No
Helen Alexandros: No
Valerie Beaudry: Yes
Vanessa Kapatelis: Yes
Doctor Psycho: No
Princess Maru: No
Marina Maru: No
Circe: No
Doris Zeul: No
Heracles: Yes
Gudra: Yes
Cylvia Cyber: No
Adrianna Anderson: No
Angle Man: Yes
Medusa: No
Zara: No
Eviless: No
Hypnota: Yes
Byrna Brilyant: No
Queen Atomia: No
Minister Blizzard: No
The Mask: Yes
Mouse Man: Yes
Chang Tzu: No
Queen Clea: No
Fireworks Man: No
Osira: No
Kung: Yes
Inversion: No
Astarte: Yes
Captain Wonder: No
Aegeus: No
Maxwell Lord: No
Mayfly: Yes
Dark Angel: No
Tsarina: No
Cyborgirl: Yes
Genocide: No
Devastation: No
First Born: No
Grail: No
Paper Man: No
Prime Planner: No
El Gaucho: Yes
Formicida: Yes
Gault: No
The Skrill: No

[Ascended]

I don't know if she represents all that's bad about a twisted form of feminism, but Cheetah does tie into some feminist themes.

You're definitely not wrong. Honestly I think Rich was a better character. But I was speaking of Barbara Ann, and while you're right that Rucka did put some of the Golden Age motivations back in, I think it's all too muddied to have a clear and concise message. Especially with Circe out there, acting like the worst diva stereotypes and covering some of the same/similar ground.

[Gaius]

Think I tend to like Paula Von Gunther’s possibility of redemption more in theory than how it’s actually been played out or usually presented with the kidnapped daughter angle.

[Mel Dyer]

I think Diana's most organic or natural motivation for being and staying 'Wonder Woman' would be to protect mankind from what mankind did to the Amazons, thousands of years ago. Her natural archenemy, as I see it, would be someone devoted to the total subjugation and torment of humanity...maybe, of all sentient things. Is that Circe? Grail? Atomia? Doctor Cyber?

For such a being, there would be no conceivable redemption.

GREAT, truly thought-provoking arguments, all around, amigos! Scott! Gaius! Ascended! Siege! All of you! Everyone! This is why I love the Wonderboards.

[Ascended]

>bows<

Yeah, I gotta say, you can find tons of interesting and creative ideas and feedback and insights on the forums, but the Wonder boards often seem to have the best grounding in education; history and myth and philosophy and sociology, etc. When posting on other forums I have to dig into what I learned in various writing/literary analysis classes, but when posting here, you need more than that if you really wanna contribute. I mean, I've been in discussions about how the unique nature of Themyscria impacts the social evolution of the Amazons and what kind of food they're most likely to grow, what kind of architecture they'd favor, how their political system operates.....it's a hell of a lot more in depth and intellectual than "Can Superman punch a star out of galactic orbit?"

[Vordan]

I liked how Orlando had Diana redeem Mayfly, but the problem you run into is that given Diana’s Rogues Gallery is already sparsely used, is redeeming her villains really a good idea for her long term success? I can’t say but I do think some villains should be redeemed but maybe we should restrict redemption to OCs.

Hmm, that actually is a more interesting interpretation of Diana and Cheetah's relationship. Almost like how Batman will probably never be able to cure Two-Face.

It was only after Rucka positioned Cheetah as her Two-Face that she *clicked* for me. I suddenly got the relationship between the two and why Barbara mattered to Diana. Seeing her be one of the first persons Diana net when she came to Man’s World really helped her likability and made me care when she became Cheetah.

I think Diana's most organic or natural motivation for being and staying 'Wonder Woman' would be to protect mankind from what mankind did to the Amazons, thousands of years ago. Her natural archenemy, as I see it, would be someone devoted to the total subjugation and torment of humanity...maybe, of all sentient things. Is that Circe? Grail? Atomia? Doctor Cyber?

For such a being, there would be no conceivable redemption.

GREAT, truly thought-provoking arguments, all around, amigos! Scott! Gaius! Ascended! Siege! All of you! Everyone! This is why I love the Wonderboards.

There are two main ideas that Diana represents that could have their opposites explored in villains that would make for interesting contrasts. One is that Diana of course represents all that’s good about feminism. She’s raised on an island of all women who love her and nurture her, and she incorporates that aspect into her mission. The obvious contrast of course is to explore the negative side of womankind and I still personally think Circe would be perfect for that. Her relationship with Hecate could provide an interesting contrast with Diana’s relationship with Hippolyta, Circe has her own personal island of Aeaea that could contrast with Themyscaria, she’s much more worldly and has been a part of the world’s development as opposed to Diana who was raised in isolation on paradise. There’s some definite potential there.

The other big idea that Diana represents is that she’s coming to Man’s World and she’s going to change it by spreading the Amazon Way. So an obvious ideological opponent for her would be someone who embodies all the worst aspect of Man’s World. Someone who champions a completely opposite outlook on life that is totally regressive and in opposition to WW’s progressive outlook. Now traditionally this has been Ares, but honestly? I find Ares to be incredibly boring. He just wants to cause wars to empower himself, he doesn’t really have much of a personality beyond bloodlust. Zeus could be an interesting opponent but the problem with that is it can be easily reduced to daddy issues given how hackish writers can be, and Zeus himself is not exactly widely worshipped in the modern world. If I had to pick someone I would pick Vandal Savage. That dude pretty perfectly embodies all the evil Diana is meant to fight, while also being a charismatic figure who could feasibly rally people to his way of thinking. He’s a conqueror to Diana’s liberator. He’s an immortal like her but has used his long lifespan to commit atrocities. He worships nothing but himself in opposition to Diana who is typically one of the most pious and religious characters DC has, and would gladly make himself a god if the opportunity came. While she’s a progressive Amazon who seeks to spread enlightenment, he’s still deep down Oog the Caveman who when he gets annoyed can revert to screaming, bashing someone’s head open with a rock and eating their brain. And pointedly, he’s a rapist who typically views men as either rivals to be crushed or servants to further his own goals, and women as mere property. I think he’d make a great enemy for Diana.

[Gaius]

It was only after Rucka positioned Cheetah as her Two-Face that she *clicked* for me. I suddenly got the relationship between the two and why Barbara mattered to Diana. Seeing her be one of the first persons Diana net when she came to Man’s World really helped her likability and made me care when she became Cheetah.

Yeah, making Minerva a part of Diana's origin is where I felt it finally made sense Diana and Cheetah would have a hero/villain relationship distinct from her other rogues that before then only felt was there because other mediums used Cheetah as WW's counter on Super Friends and JL.

[Tzigone]

It was only after Rucka positioned Cheetah as her Two-Face that she *clicked* for me. I suddenly got the relationship between the two and why Barbara mattered to Diana. Seeing her be one of the first persons Diana net when she came to Man’s World really helped her likability and made me care when she became Cheetah.

I'm on the opposite side - I'm pretty much sick to death of heroes having personal, pre-existing relationships with their villains (and I disliked it a lot more when retconned in). And it just makes me go from "ooh, good villain" to not being able to enjoy them. Even when cursed, my sympathy or caring about it dies after a handful of horrific things are done. So I can't care about the villain or go opposite and root for their destruction. Meh. Of course, I've never been into villains. 99% of the time, they are just obstacles for the hero to overcome to me. They exist so the hero can be heroic. At best, I can find them entertaining in their evil. But that's usually if they aren't too gory, and don't get too personal about the hero. Humor or not, both can be acceptable. Even then, I can get tired of them if used too often.

Villains who don't think they are evil have a short shelf-life to me before I'm sick of them. Cursed ones don't even have that, since I feel like most of what's going to follow is all the blather about how it's not really their fault, because they were cursed (which is often true, depending on the nature of the curse), and no satisfying resolution (even more so with an ongoing like this). It's boring and frustrating and if you made me like character first, it just means being depressed/annoyed because the one I liked met a terrible fate.

I could like Rucka's Barbara Ann. But not his Cheetah, if that makes sense? She was a fine non-evil character. But I don't like it how it affects her as a villain.

[Mel Dyer]

Make use of her pre-existing villains beyond Cheetah, Circe, and Ares. I like them well enough but no one would have cared about Batman's rogues if the only ones who got constant repeated usage where Joker, Riddler, or Penguin.

A timely observation, Gaius.

I'm bored by Diana, Donna, Cassie and the Amazons. As much as a hot rogues gallery, I think the WW comic needs a Wonder Family that is diverse in powers/abilities, gender (especially), as well as background. Would that include Cheetah? Hercules? Giganta? I would rather see reformed super-villains join the family, than heroes, borrowed from other comics; wouldn't you?