Villains - redeemable and not (end game)

[marhawkman]

Ares can easily be replaced with Zeus.

Not really. WW fighting the king of Olympus? She's friendly to more than just one or two of the gods. Yes there are some that she has fought, and she even fought Apollo when he was acting as Zeus's successor, but actually fighting Zeus? nah.

[Mel Dyer]

I like the idea of a redeemed Doris Zeul. I can imagine Diana, Etta and Doris under one roof...funny!

[Vordan]

Ares. Powerful, flashy, and someone who's ideologically opposed.

Does anyone really care about Ares? People said he was the weakest part of her movie. Outside of the Perez intro I don’t recall anyone caring about him. Hell Rucka pretty much redeemed him in his run already!

[Nyssane]

Does anyone really care about Ares? People said he was the weakest part of her movie. Outside of the Perez intro I don’t recall anyone caring about him. Hell Rucka pretty much redeemed him in his run already!

The last decade has certainly redeemed Ares, if you ask me. Will it last permanently? Who knows. But even Perez didn't really know what to do with him as an archenemy and immediately discarded him as an adversary after his first battle with Diana. He hasn't really been a villain since Gail Simone's run where Diana easily killed him with an axe to the head (and then he had his crow children do some of his bidding or whatnot... it was weird, and not in a good way).

The New 52 had Ares as her mentor. Rebirth had Ares as a complacent prisoner of love, and later someone who tried to redeem himself outright (in Wilson's run). I think the times of Ares as one of Wonder Woman's "big bads" is over, since he hasn't lived up to fans' perceptions of him as this A-list villain.

[Ascended]

Who is the jewel in the crown that WW's rogues gallery can't afford to lose? Honestly, I don't see it.

Cheetah, Ares.....arguably Circe. Don't know if *I'd* include her, but I feel like some people would.

And yeah, I maintain that Ares is a jewel in the rogues gallery. He hasn't been used to great effect in a while, he's been something other than a villain for a bit....whatever, Lex Luthor has been a hero, the Joker has gone years with few appearances, or mostly bad ones. Ares' isn't at his best right now, but he's still a core villain. He's Diana's Brainiaic, her Ra's al Ghul. If people are lukewarm to him, well, how many Wonder villains are people actually passionate about?

I also think Psycho is too good to give up, but that's probably not a widely shared opinion.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think Ares is perfect for the origin story, but has very little use beyond that. Year One also lifted him out of it (the real one anyway) and I don't think it's hurt by his absence.

He really works best as a behind the scenes player, poised as the opposition to Aphrodite and Athena. While they have Wonder Woman and the Amazons as their champions on Earth, he has his kids and supervillains like Dr. Psycho, the Silver Swan and Max Lord representing him that he acts through.

[Gaius]

Yeah, outside of an origin, I think Ares as a consistent villain in the book worked best in Rucka’s first run where he was more of a big picture villainous neutral character.

[kjn]

Agreed that Ares works best as an origin story villain, to be used very sparingly afterwards. And yes, I think that Zeus makes for a much better long-lasting antagonist for Diana. Not in the physical sense, but in an ideological one. That's something Pérez understood, though I think he failed to properly develop it.

Among her bread-and-butter antagonists, I think Cheetah, Doctor Psycho, Doctor Poison, Veronica Cale, and Giganta would make up for a strong start. I'd probably add in the Duke of Deception and try to include on or two other dudes there (either new ones or by going through her old rogue's gallery).

I'm of the opinion that evil!Circe is rather uninteresting, simplistic, and misogynistic interpretation of the mythical Circe. I'd much rather see her as an ambigious and mysterious figure, sometimes opposed to Diana, sometimes allied with her.

Though I also think that Pérez missed a huge opportunity in not making a MAD Athena into Diana's antagonist for his take on her origin story. That would both have been thematically awesome and give a much stronger case for Diana's ability to redeem villains.

[Agent Z]

Not really. WW fighting the king of Olympus? She's friendly to more than just one or two of the gods. Yes there are some that she has fought, and she even fought Apollo when he was acting as Zeus's successor, but actually fighting Zeus? nah.

Zeus has been antagonistic to her at least twice. One of those times resulting in her doing this.



And as shown in several runs like Rucka and Perez, not every god likes Zeus or agrees with his decisions.

[marhawkman]

yeah, but decking Zeus once is not quite the same as fighting him as a supervillain.

[Ascended]

I think Ares is perfect for the origin story, but has very little use beyond that. Year One also lifted him out of it (the real one anyway) and I don't think it's hurt by his absence.

He really works best as a behind the scenes player, poised as the opposition to Aphrodite and Athena. While they have Wonder Woman and the Amazons as their champions on Earth, he has his kids and supervillains like Dr. Psycho, the Silver Swan and Max Lord representing him that he acts through.

That's kind of how I see him too.

He's a god; he's not gonna show up in the middle of the street, attacking random civilians and screaming for Diana to fight him. He's not *that* kind of villain. He's a force of nature and the personification of humanity at conflict with itself. Dude is not a "we need a random action scene" bad guy. He's the schemer, the big picture dude, the villain the hero has to fight a tower full of other villains just to reach. He's Ra's al Ghul and Brainiac; a villain best used sparingly, who scares the ever loving sh*t out of the hero when they show up, the villain the hero really *shouldn't* be capable of defeating, but manages to by sheer grit and a lot of luck.

But just because Ares shouldn't be a regular, often seen bad guy doesn't mean he's not a core rogue.

[marhawkman]

That's kind of how I see him too.

He's a god; he's not gonna show up in the middle of the street, attacking random civilians and screaming for Diana to fight him. He's not *that* kind of villain. He's a force of nature and the personification of humanity at conflict with itself. Dude is not a "we need a random action scene" bad guy. He's the schemer, the big picture dude, the villain the hero has to fight a tower full of other villains just to reach. He's Ra's al Ghul and Brainiac; a villain best used sparingly, who scares the ever loving sh*t out of the hero when they show up, the villain the hero really *shouldn't* be capable of defeating, but manages to by sheer grit and a lot of luck.

But just because Ares shouldn't be a regular, often seen bad guy doesn't mean he's not a core rogue.

Ares is the kind of guy to send lackeys after the hero... lackeys who are capable of killing a small army single handedly.

[WonderScott]

I like Ares as part of her origin story and as a force of nature and personification of an abstract idea. As a supervillain, he’s about tilting things in his favor and manipulating people and events to fuel his godliness. Diana beat him initially and caused him great pain and checked his hubris and he’s been messing with her ever since.

One of the greatest things Rucka did in his first run was play with the roles of the gods in the modern world - showing that and hinting at that Zeus, Hera, and Poseidon may have been usurped by Ares, Athena, and Aphrodite. The story never played out unfortunately, but it was an interesting concept, I’d bring back to the book if I had my way.

The erstwhile and vacillating benevolence and capriciousness of the gods should interwoven into the book and intersect lots of different characters in different ways, whether it’s Diana, Etta, Hippolyta, Veronica Cale, Mouse Man, Eviless, the Duke of Deception, etc.

I’m not saying I want the gods to be the creators of lots of villains, but they can be allies or adversaries acting in the mundane, non-divine drama, mucking things up even more.