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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    If you can, please direct me to where I said Dick Grayson should return to being Batman's sidekick.
    Why would he retake the name Robin?

    Right now Tim Drake as Robin had the most success. Same as Cassandra Cain as Batgirl.

    As others have said, he seems like a nice guy and people constantly have good things to say about him. I wish him no ill will. But running a company on your personal whims rather than what your customers want always seemed stupid to me. Bringing back Barry Allen and Barbara Gordon is one thing. Actively shitting on their replacements to the point that you flat-out remove them from continuity just because you personally dislike them is something I just don't get.

    Argue about whether Barry or Wally sold better, whatever. Wally held his own series for decades. Even if you weren't gonna give him a solo book with Barry around, he couldn't be in a team of some kind? You're gonna tell me his fans wouldn't have followed him in a Justice League spin-off or Titans or something? Same for characters like Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain. If they can't have the mantle, whatever, but just flat out deciding nobody is allowed to use them at all out of spite seemed counterproductive. But that's just my two cents.
    THIS...............


    It was actually kinda brilliant business for him to take all the blame, too.
    NO it all falls on his feet. If there are constant issues with books with writers bailing out (see new 52 Static Shock and Cyborg)-that is on him. Those editors have to answer to HIM.

    If I have writers whose book are constantly among the worst sellers or reviewers-why is that writer still there and getting MORE books. While guys like Priest despite the resume gets offered Cyborg multiple times before getting Deathstroke.
    If Tom King wanted to clear out the bat support staff for solo Batman-explain the crapping on Duke Thomas to the point he was out of the book for a year after doing cameos.
    It falls at his feet.

    He allowed the crapping of so many characters including the ones that SOLD.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Why would he retake the name Robin?

    Right now Tim Drake as Robin had the most success. Same as Cassandra Cain as Batgirl.
    What are you measuring success by? Probably about 8 or 9 times out of 10, when people think of Robin, they're thinking of Dick Grayson, whether they know it or not. That, also, is a reason why the character would/should retake his name. Robin is iconic. Nightwing? Not so much.

  3. #48
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Why would he retake the name Robin?

    Right now Tim Drake as Robin had the most success. Same as Cassandra Cain as Batgirl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    What are you measuring success by? Probably about 8 or 9 times out of 10, when people think of Robin, they're thinking of Dick Grayson, whether they know it or not. That, also, is a reason why the character would/should retake his name. Robin is iconic. Nightwing? Not so much.
    Robin also appeared a lot in the Golden Age and even had his own solo stories, back when comic sold much better than they did now or even in the 90s.

    I don't think he should re-take the name in a main canon where he's an adult, but I think Dick would be the most successful Robin for many reasons even before we factor in his presence in other media which is the real success.

  4. #49
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    NO it all falls on his feet.
    You gotta go back and read the rest of what I wrote man. Like I said, in business sh*t should roll uphill. Everything that happens at DC, good and bad and indifferent, lands at the feet of the EiC and publisher/s and whatever other high ranking management they have who approve of stories or approve of the people who approve of stories. And I said as much before.

    What I'm talking about is Didio taking the heat publicly. Even for stuff he didn't directly green light or directly approve of, he made sure fan disgruntlement was aimed at him and not the creators. Yeah, him and Lee and Harras and whoever else are responsible for each level of the business functioning properly and they often made a dog's dinner of it. But Didio took heat for stuff he probably didn't even know about until it hit the shelf (his job entailed more than just the comic production), keeping fan anger directed at him instead of creators, where that sort of thing could cost the company sales. It doesn't excuse all the mistakes DC made under his watch of course, but him keeping us pissed off at him instead of creators was smart business.

    Smarter business would've involved doing things that *didn't* piss us off, of course, but what he did was still minimizing the potential impact of fan outrage being directed at the people with their names on the covers.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  5. #50
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You gotta go back and read the rest of what I wrote man. Like I said, in business sh*t should roll uphill. Everything that happens at DC, good and bad and indifferent, lands at the feet of the EiC and publisher/s and whatever other high ranking management they have who approve of stories or approve of the people who approve of stories. And I said as much before.

    What I'm talking about is Didio taking the heat publicly. Even for stuff he didn't directly green light or directly approve of, he made sure fan disgruntlement was aimed at him and not the creators. Yeah, him and Lee and Harras and whoever else are responsible for each level of the business functioning properly and they often made a dog's dinner of it. But Didio took heat for stuff he probably didn't even know about until it hit the shelf (his job entailed more than just the comic production), keeping fan anger directed at him instead of creators, where that sort of thing could cost the company sales. It doesn't excuse all the mistakes DC made under his watch of course, but him keeping us pissed off at him instead of creators was smart business.

    Smarter business would've involved doing things that *didn't* piss us off, of course, but what he did was still minimizing the potential impact of fan outrage being directed at the people with their names on the covers.
    That is true, he did. He took the heat for that horrible Adam Beechen portrayal of Cass (even though the fault fell on Beechen and Tomasi for that), he said that calling "Earth-0" Earth-1 was an editorial direction (which it wasn't) after a mistake from Jurgens saw print, and on and on.

    HOWEVER

    The things that actually stuck on him, from readers' perspective, are the ones he actually did. The mess that continuity became? That's on Didio. The edicts forbiding legacy characters or marriages? That's on Didio. The specific character assassinations ordered again and again, with the same victims, to the point where people who loved DC started hating with a passion? That is on Didio. The non-stop mocking on readers' preferences? Hell, most of it came straight from his mouth.

    Even if some of what I mentioned wasn't his agenda (we know it was), it was still his job to assure that none of it would be detrimental to the company, but he willingly took the opposite path. As someone who likes to observe this stuff, I"d say that DC had 2 periods of extreme negative image among readers. One around year 3 of the New52, the other is now. And this one now? Didio had to fight for it: there was a sense of renewed trust between readers and DC when Rebirth hit that was pretty much like nothing I've ever seen, but Dan just had ro sabotage the hell out of it because it didn't fit his particular vision, thus proving almost every complaint ever made about him on the internet right.

    Of course, none of this grievances, alone, were cause for his firing, but they sure didn't help.

    (And let's face it: to take all this measures that he knew readers didn't want, he probably had to step on many creators and editors who felt like it. So, there's that...)
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  6. #51
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    HOWEVER
    All true and correct. I mean, hell, my two favorite characters in comics are Superman and Nightwing. I don't have to tell you how awful the Didio years were for those two (though both had a few highlights here and there as well).

    I don't agree with the kind of corporate culture Didio apparently favors, nor do I agree with most of the creative choices he pushed and many of his business initiatives seemed to be either halfassed or so limited by other factors they were practically doomed anyway. But I'll still give him credit where it's due. And keeping us pissed at him instead of creators, even when it wasn't his fault, is something I think he deserves credit for.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  8. #53
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Ha, just saw that interview on the Nightwing thread over on the Bat board.

    It still all sounds like a bunch of crap excuses to me. People loved Dick and Wally because they got to grow up with the characters? Some fans, sure, but not all of us. Dick was already a grown adult when I got into DC as a tween, back in the early 90's.

    The one that really gets me though, is the issue with Dick and his peers growing up. Did it never occur to anyone that they could have just....stopped aging the NTT?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ha, just saw that interview on the Nightwing thread over on the Bat board.

    It still all sounds like a bunch of crap excuses to me. People loved Dick and Wally because they got to grow up with the characters? Some fans, sure, but not all of us. Dick was already a grown adult when I got into DC as a tween, back in the early 90's.

    The one that really gets me though, is the issue with Dick and his peers growing up. Did it never occur to anyone that they could have just....stopped aging the NTT?
    When characters are continually published and have adventures and life events, it's hard for them to not age them up slowly.

    In NTT for example, Arsenal had a child, but then in another title with Cheshire, Lian Harper is drawn as a 4 year old--it suddenly ages Roy and ages them all.

    In Nightwing's own title, Dick goes back and finishes college--that ages him as well.

    When Donna and Terry finally get married after dating forever in the comics--they had to age Donna to the point such that her marrying a guy in his 40's(?) didn't seem so creepy.

  10. #55
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titanfan View Post
    When characters are continually published and have adventures and life events, it's hard for them to not age them up slowly.
    Exactly. Which just proves the point.

    Characters did age through post-Crisis. We can look at the Young Justice kids and see that they went from being roughly 15 to roughly 20 (very rough estimates here, don't get lost in the details). And we could see the difference; Tim as Red Robin was drawn to look older than he did when he debuted as Robin. Not *much* older, but you could tell, because he was a kid and those five-ish years bring a lot of change to teenagers.

    For characters around Bruce and Clark's age? That five-ish year time span is meaningless. They're adults still in (or close to) their primes; they got older but you'd never know it. Just like I don't look much different now at 38 than I did at 33 (other than more gray hair, which I blame on my kids).

    For people around Dick's age? That time span is also largely meaningless. Dick went from being, what, around 22 when NTT ended to around 26 in 2011 (again, rough estimates)? We change a lot in that time, but most of it is mental and emotional. Physically? You might barely notice the difference.

    So what I'm saying is the "problem" of Dick and co. aging solves itself. They got old enough so that the passage of time wouldn't have a major impact on them like it does with kids who are still growing. The idea that Nightwing and the NTT growing up somehow screws over everyone else is a fallacy. Their mentors and parents were already old enough to "take the hit" and not be changed by it to any meaningful, noticeable degree.

    Not to mention the raw, full hypocrisy of Didio's claim. Dick Grayson ages Batman....but having a 10-13 year old son doesn't? If Didio was so concerned about Batman looking old, he shouldn't have allowed Morrison to introduce Damian, and he shouldn't have allowed Jurgens to introduce Jon Kent.

    I agree with Didio that killing Nightwing in 06 was a viable storytelling device. But the idea that Dick ages Batman to a detrimental degree is just f**king stupid.
    Last edited by Ascended; 06-23-2020 at 07:36 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  11. #56
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    All men are kings, but Dan Didio is the KING!
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Exactly. Which just proves the point.

    Characters did age through post-Crisis. We can look at the Young Justice kids and see that they went from being roughly 15 to roughly 20 (very rough estimates here, don't get lost in the details). And we could see the difference; Tim as Red Robin was drawn to look older than he did when he debuted as Robin. Not *much* older, but you could tell, because he was a kid and those five-ish years bring a lot of change to teenagers.

    For characters around Bruce and Clark's age? That five-ish year time span is meaningless. They're adults still in (or close to) their primes; they got older but you'd never know it. Just like I don't look much different now at 38 than I did at 33 (other than more gray hair, which I blame on my kids).

    For people around Dick's age? That time span is also largely meaningless. Dick went from being, what, around 22 when NTT ended to around 26 in 2011 (again, rough estimates)? We change a lot in that time, but most of it is mental and emotional. Physically? You might barely notice the difference.

    So what I'm saying is the "problem" of Dick and co. aging solves itself. They got old enough so that the passage of time wouldn't have a major impact on them like it does with kids who are still growing. The idea that Nightwing and the NTT growing up somehow screws over everyone else is a fallacy. Their mentors and parents were already old enough to "take the hit" and not be changed by it to any meaningful, noticeable degree.

    Not to mention the raw, full hypocrisy of Didio's claim. Dick Grayson ages Batman....but having a 10-13 year old son doesn't? If Didio was so concerned about Batman looking old, he shouldn't have allowed Morrison to introduce Damian, and he shouldn't have allowed Jurgens to introduce Jon Kent.

    I agree with Didio that killing Nightwing in 06 was a viable storytelling device. But the idea that Dick ages Batman to a detrimental degree is just f**king stupid.
    I would add an addendum that the Batman books were arguably proving that a Batman approaching middle age was a workable situation - in general, fans who came in from the 90’s on expected him to be in his early 40’s by the time of Inc. so there was probably even more give in terms of moving the “prime” ages of characters like him even further down the timeline; the fact that some real-world superstars and athletes have managed to draw out their careers to that period helps as well.

    There’s also stuff like Wonder Woman and Superman being invulnerable to aging’s effects, the Flash’s time travel aspects and speed force powers altering his aging requirements (technically, Iris still isn’t born yet pre-Flashpoint), and Hal having gone white at the temples for quite a few years with fewer complaints than Johns’s Space cockroach story needed to address.

    To be blunt, most of DC’s modern readers had no problem seeing the classic Silver Age characters as older veterans, as that was both how they were introduced to the characters... and not *that* far off from their media portrayals (Keaton was 38 when Batman ‘89 came out, for instance.)

    And in theory, there *could* be a point where character would have to be past middle age when their families aged up - if Damian reached a Tim-in-Red-Robin age, for instance, Bruce probably has to be getting closer to fifty than not.

    But these are superheroes. You can do flashback stories. And half the audience is desperately in love with mean old man Bruce from either DKR or Batman Beyond.

    I’d add that another aspect of this debate about Didio and “Teen Titans” would be the way he shut down and shuttered Young Justice for Johns’s run - from what I can tell, *that* book was a working “gateway” series for a lot of guys my age, and arguably was soemthing that should have been more carefully maintained, even if the characters got moved “up” to Titans.
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  13. #58

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    I'm not going to continually beat up on Didio. His 18-year tenure wasn't all bad, and regardless of what was and wasn't his influence there were some gems that came out during his time at DC. So I'm going to focus on that.

    However, I will say that his outright defiance towards the success of Rebirth and his continual defense of New 52 pretty much outlines the reason why he needed to move on. And I have no doubt in my mind that he went out of his way to sabotage Rebirth.

  14. #59

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    Beyond his preferences being different from mine, which I respect, he has sound reason for those preferences, I do think Didio had way too many hang ups to be in charge. I don't doubt his ability to make compromises when it came to working with others, he wouldn't have lasted long if he didn't. But it was alway clear that he was always stuck with a lot of concepts and baggage that he absolutely hated and it showed in some ugly way in the books.

  15. #60
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    In the end he won. The damage is done to both Dick and Wally.

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