Andre the Giant vs. Bruce Lee

[big_adventure]

Yes I remember Dux saying that he did get momentarily blinded by the sweat from his opponent hitting his eyes and the liniment on his opponent's hands but that it was an accident and that, had his opponent really thrown powder into his eyes, he would have been instantly disqualified as this isn't professional wrestling.

I remember the movie being pretty good as long as you accept that Van Damme either has very little real martial arts experience or that the fight choreographer sucked.

And I say this as someone who is okay with these CW fights. But this one move and stop stuff in Bloodsport, to me, was even more obvious and worse.

Van Damme was actually a professional kickboxer - he wasn't great, but was something like 18-1 or 19-1 in his career. He fought at light heavyweight or heavyweight as well: he would have certainly kicked the living crap out of Bruce Lee.

[The MunchKING]

Nonsense.

One day, you will reach the level of martial arts mastery where your opponent stands as still as a tree as you execute a 5 minute kick.

Oh that's just DBZ speed, it's not REALLY 5 minutes, It just looks like that because otherwise the fights will be over too quickly.

[master of read]

Nonsense.

One day, you will reach the level of martial arts mastery where your opponent stands as still as a tree as you execute a 5 minute kick.

learned from the best, shidoshi Tanaka. ;P

[Kuro]

Oh that's just DBZ speed, it's not REALLY 5 minutes, It just looks like that because otherwise the fights will be over too quickly.

It all makes sense now. DBZ came out in the 90's (in Japan) and Bloodsport came out in 89!

[Sharpandpointies]

I don't know about some of those claims, but some of the footage out there, his speed is actually really impressive. By any standard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QDOr2oxoYs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdnGg72L2Oo

Let's just take the very first instance of the very first clip. It's stage magic.

Look at WHEN Lee throws the punch. You can slow down the movie. He throws it when he's waaaaaay outside of punch range. In fact, the punch has zero chance of hitting the other guy. The other guy has only a tiny moment where Lee's fist is in reach of his OUTSTRETCHED ARM to catch it. No surprise he doesn't.

Lee then finishes his leap forward and ends up face to face with the guy.

To eyesight, it CAN look like he threw a punch so fast the other guy couldn't stop it.

The reality (which you see on video, especially when slowed) is that he threw the punch from out of reach, where the other guy had no chance of touching it, and then finished his jump forward.

It's stage magic. It looks good, but it's nothing but smoke and mirrors. Deliberately so - Lee was trying to hype himself, and sold the crowd a line of crap with that little show.

In the same video I see a lot of flicky stuff that blurs. Well...a good boxer can throw a jab that blurs on camera. And a lot of it is just him using arm movement, not whole body movement. ANYONE can flick their arm really quickly. Lee, being in damn good shape and having practiced it, can flick his arm really quickly. But...that's all.

1:45 same vid. Lee indicates where the guy is supposed to strike. The guy kind of...moves his arm at a decent speed, but not as a punch. Lee flicks his arm up as fast as he can (and also knows exactly when the guy is going to attack), and so yeah, he gets there first.

Was Lee fast?

Sure. But this BS about 'impossibly fast!' is just that, BS.

The Lee hype on the old board got so bad we needed a ruling saying 'You must provide evidence for any and all Lee claims' to stop the multipage spamming of supposed things Lee could do. You'd think we wouldn't need that kind of ruling on Rumbles, but noooo....

[Sharpandpointies]

Frank Dux is a real life figure and this movie accurately depicts everything that happened in the Kumite. Including the split roundhouse kicks. And fighting blind. And the death touch. And Geese Howard.

This is my favorite post in this thread.

[Sharpandpointies]

frank also said he set the record for most KOs in a single kumite at 52. now, if this tournament was single-elimination, that number is IMPOSSIBLE!

Bullshido did a looooong write-up on Frank Dux. His claims about the kumite have been massively debunked (also being mathmatically impossible, like you note). His demonstrations have been debunked (he has been caught 'breaking' Hollywood stage props, as an example). Basically, the dude is a big, fat liar.

[Kuro]

Let's just take the very first instance of the very first clip. It's stage magic.

Look at WHEN Lee throws the punch. You can slow down the movie. He throws it when he's waaaaaay outside of punch range. In fact, the punch has zero chance of hitting the other guy. The other guy has only a tiny moment where Lee's fist is in reach of his OUTSTRETCHED ARM to catch it. No surprise he doesn't.

Lee then finishes his leap forward and ends up face to face with the guy.

To eyesight, it CAN look like he threw a punch so fast the other guy couldn't stop it.

The reality (which you see on video, especially when slowed) is that he threw the punch from out of reach, where the other guy had no chance of touching it, and then finished his jump forward.

It's stage magic. It looks good, but it's nothing but smoke and mirrors. Deliberately so - Lee was trying to hype himself, and sold the crowd a line of crap with that little show.

In the same video I see a lot of flicky stuff that blurs. Well...a good boxer can throw a jab that blurs on camera. And a lot of it is just him using arm movement, not whole body movement. ANYONE can flick their arm really quickly. Lee, being in damn good shape and having practiced it, can flick his arm really quickly. But...that's all.

1:45 same vid. Lee indicates where the guy is supposed to strike. The guy kind of...moves his arm at a decent speed, but not as a punch. Lee flicks his arm up as fast as he can (and also knows exactly when the guy is going to attack), and so yeah, he gets there first.

Was Lee fast?

Sure. But this BS about 'impossibly fast!' is just that, BS.

The Lee hype on the old board got so bad we needed a ruling saying 'You must provide evidence for any and all Lee claims' to stop the multipage spamming of supposed things Lee could do. You'd think we wouldn't need that kind of ruling on Rumbles, but noooo....

Yeah, I'm really tired of the Bruce Lee wankery.

I remember reading some idiotic myth about how Lee used to curl 75lb a dumbbell with one arm. Considering Lee weighed something like.. 130-something soaking wet, I found that to be massively full of it.

Before the big wipe here, I got into an argument here with some clear wanker who claimed Bruce Lee doesn't have any fight records because he was, and I quote, "a killer."

Like, COME ON, people!

[big_adventure]

Yeah, I'm really tired of the Bruce Lee wankery.

I remember reading some idiotic myth about how Lee used to curl 75lb a dumbbell with one arm. Considering Lee weighed something like.. 130-something soaking wet, I found that to be massively full of it.

Before the big wipe here, I got into an argument here with some clear wanker who claimed Bruce Lee doesn't have any fight records because he was, and I quote, "a killer."

Like, COME ON, people!

I recall the killer one.

I remember that from childhood: "Bruce Lee had to register his hands as lethal weapons."

Please. Punch my nosebone into my brain or something. Please.

[Kuro]

Seriously, does Bruce Lee have ANY tournament record?

[The Dog]

I recall the killer one.

I remember that from childhood: "Bruce Lee had to register his hands as lethal weapons."

Please. Punch my nosebone into my brain or something. Please.

Well, you CAN punch the nosebone into the brain. Of course, if a person can hit with enough force to do that, then their victim's going to have a lot more to worry about than nosebone in their brain. Like having their attacker's entire fist in their brain.

[Powerboy]

Yeah, I'm really tired of the Bruce Lee wankery.

I remember reading some idiotic myth about how Lee used to curl 75lb a dumbbell with one arm. Considering Lee weighed something like.. 130-something soaking wet, I found that to be massively full of it.

Before the big wipe here, I got into an argument here with some clear wanker who claimed Bruce Lee doesn't have any fight records because he was, and I quote, "a killer."

Like, COME ON, people!

All we have to do is do a web search on Bruce Lee to get a million sites that explain how he is the greatest martial artist that ever lived by far and had speed that was almost a freak mutation that was superhuman. And all this with stage magic feats, unsupported claims and no documented fights, at least that are on film and don't have various contradictory stories about what happened.

Oh, granted, Andre's feats are in the same category. Except he really did bodyslam guys his own size including Hogan and John Studd and was legitimately three times Bruce's body mass and strength and fairly decent speed in his youth. Then there's his reach which is very important.

I've also heard about how he kicked so fast the camera couldn't even record it. Except it's been shown that, given the film and speed quality of that time, there are hundreds if not thousands of people who could do that but they didn't hype themselves and make announcements about it or have other people doing it for them.

[big_adventure]

Seriously, does Bruce Lee have ANY tournament record?

He doesn't even have a BAR FIGHT record. He allegedly had one sort of sparring, sort of fighting thing, sort of who knows with a kung fu instructor in San Francisco in 1964. Literally nobody agrees on the story. Lee claims he dominated. Lee's friends claim the same. After Lee publically claimed this, Wong Jack Man and one of his friends both released accounts that were completely different. Finally, Wong Jack Man wrote an article in the paper saying Lee was full of crap (but politely) and offered to meet him any time, anywhere, for a public match. Lee did not reply. And just after, he closed his school and left San Francisco.

That's literally it.

[The Dog]

All we have to do is do a web search on Bruce Lee to get a million sites that explain how he is the greatest martial artist that ever lived by far and had speed that was almost a freak mutation that was superhuman. And all this with stage magic feats, unsupported claims and no documented fights, at least that are on film and don't have various contradictory stories about what happened.

Oh, granted, Andre's feats are in the same category. Except he really did bodyslam guys his own size including Hogan and John Studd and was legitimately three times Bruce's body mass and strength and fairly decent speed in his youth. Then there's his reach which is very important.

I've also heard about how he kicked so fast the camera couldn't even record it. Except it's been shown that, given the film and speed quality of that time, there are hundreds if not thousands of people who could do that but they didn't hype themselves and make announcements about it or have other people doing it for them.

Pretty much. Both fighter's greatest "feats" are hearsay by people "claiming" they saw them do it (and Lee is noted to have sparred, but never fought). So we have to look at each fighter physically. And... Andre has the advantage in just about every physical category. He has greater reach, greater height, greater mass, and most likely greater strength. All Bruce really has is maybe greater speed. But it won't be so superhuman that Andre can't touch him, and once he gets his hands on Bruce, he's going to slam Bruce around like a ragdoll.

[master of read]

Bullshido did a looooong write-up on Frank Dux. His claims about the kumite have been massively debunked (also being mathmatically impossible, like you note). His demonstrations have been debunked (he has been caught 'breaking' Hollywood stage props, as an example). Basically, the dude is a big, fat liar.

yep. pretty much breaking down everything about frank and the kumite is easy enough. frank even said that there was video cameras and speed meters to show how fast he punched and yet not a single bit of footage has turned up.

and yet, people still take his word that he is this deadly ex-marine, ex-cia fighter who trained steven seagal, grew chuck norris' beard for him and pimped out Jackie chan on the streets of hong kong.