Is the 1987 Spider-Man vs. Wolverine graphic novel still canon?

[Hybrid]

Marvel isn't big on the reboot thing like DC, in that they've never done a hard reset from scratch, but they have retconned or changed things out over time (largely in relation to the sliding timeline). Well, that brings us to this issue:

Spider-Man vs. Wolverine was a graphic novel released in 1987... and oh boy, does this feel like a product of the time. Not specifically in the way of pop culture, but of politics. This was written in the context of the Cold War, and had Spider-Man and Wolverine fighting each other in Germany. Or rather, West and East Germany, because again, they factored Cold War politics heavily into this story, and thus the Berlin Wall features prominently throughout. Thus, you had the KGB, and the Soviet Union, and the whole situation in regards to global politics. All of this plays a part in the story.

Naturally, this doesn't just fit in awkwardly with today, it doesn't fit at all. There's no way you could pass this as a recent event like it would logically be in the sliding timeline, because the Berlin Wall broke 30 years ago, and East and West Germany were united as a single country once again, while the Cold War ended in 1991, as did the KGB, and the Soviet Union.

The Marvel wiki classifies references specific to the time the comic was in as being "topical", in that they aren't fully canon on the large scale, and thus when revisited years later, can be changed or modernized. This however, is a topical storyline where such era-specific elements are core to the plot itself.

So how does Marvel handle this today, if they do at all?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It’s canon.

It was referred to in Marvel Saga on account of the Spider-Man/MJ interactions. Likewise, this was the first time “with great power comes great responsibility” was attributed to Uncle Ben for the first time.

So it’s got value for the stuff that’s not about the Cold War or about Spider-Man and Wolverine.The stuff in this comic has been greatly downplayed certainly but it’s still canon.

[jetengine]

At its heart its a spy story. You either make it a fake nation or just do it in Europe wholesale.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

At its heart its a spy story. You either make it a fake nation or just do it in Europe wholesale.

Yeah, in Mark Waid's recent 6-Issue history of marvel universe, he introduces a fictional country called Sian Cong to stand in for the Cold War stuff. That was intended to be a "floating conflict".

You can substitute it for Symkaria easily.

Spider-Man v. Wolverine #1 has always been a very controversial story.
-- There's the issue of Ned Leeds just randomly dying in the middle of a story, only to be revealed in the Gang War crossover that he was the Hobgoblin the whole time. The. Whole. Time. Leeds was a supporting character created by Steve Ditko himself so killing him off in some random team-up story definitely felt off. And where in SMvWolv it was presented as a tragic death by mysterious secret agents and so on, in "Gang War", it was mandated that he was the Hobgoblin the whole time. So that weakened both stories.
-- There's the issue of Spider-Man killing, albeit accidentally, a person. This "Charlie" character who was apparently an old flame of Wolverine and so on. This has been downplayed heavily since then, but it's occassionally referred to here and there. But somehow, even though Spider-Man and Wolverine have teamed up a few times after this, this specific incident has hardly ever been mentioned or referred to. Even in Wolverine solo stories, "Charlie" doesn't figure at all.
-- The comic presents Wolverine as the ideal of machismo and most of the story is about Spider-Man being too naive and dumb to be part of that cool world of moral ambiguity where a--holes like Logan know how to "get things done". So it's a story that's infected with a huge amount of toxic masculinity on top of everything, and anyone who dislikes how the MCU makes Peter look bad to set up IM, can probably credit this story for starting that. Because before this, Spider-Man team-ups were generally not endless jokes at Peter's expense, especially for the sake of a character like Wolverine who is far younger in publication terms than Spider-Man is.
-- From the perspective of writer, James Owsley, he didn't like how Marvel continuity used this story to set-up the Wedding. Owsley wrote Peter and MJ in this story with heavy amount of flirtation and sparks (and to be honest, Peter being a little bit of a creep since in one panel he kind of moves on MJ to kiss her without her fully giving in). The story ends with them as "friends" but Peter coming back to NY and embracing her has an air of romance at the end. Owsley saw Peter-MJ as a tragic doomed romance...and then a few months later, Marvel Saga issue #22, edited by PAD, was devoted to promoting the wedding, and PAD used panels of Peter/MJ across their history to help explain the continuity leading to their marriage. Among that was the interactions from SMv.Wolv. Owsley objected to his story being used against his intentions. (Of coruse, Owsley doesn't talk about the fact that he wrote the Honeymoon Annual, so denial is strong there).

Spider-Man v. Wolverine #1 is not a masterpiece by any means, but it isn't a bad story either. It's quite well-written in parts and the captions and so on still stick in your mind. Actually to be honest, it's a little too literary. Owsley/Priest was still young and starting out as a comics writer when he did this story so you have overly verbose captions and panels and so on. It's an interesting story in a lot of ways...but ultimately it doesn't come through fully. The story is about Spider-Man humiliating himself repeatedly and that's not really fun if it doesn't have anything big to say aside from that. It's also way too dark, and parts of it don't read like a Spider-Man story anymore, and ultimatley I think Owsley/Priest just didn't have the right voice for the character. But nonetheless it has value and it's still canon.

Thanks to Roger Stern's HOBGOBLIN LIVES, where Ned Leeds was an innocent pawn of Roderick Kingsley...the story is improved because Ned's death as a random victim of a villain retains its original impact. And contrary to Owsley's wishes, Peter-MJ's marriage which happened shortly after this, does actually give value and meaning to their romantic interactions here. So later developments and changes have improved it...maybe someday they can retcon "Charlie's" death too.

[Scott Taylor]

it might be the first Spider-Man comic to have been printed on high quality paper.

[Mister Mets]

it might be the first Spider-Man comic to have been printed on high quality paper.

The graphic novel Hooky predates it. Although it may be the first standard-sized Spider-Man story with that level.

[Snoop Dogg]

yeah he snapped that neck so hard

[LordMikel]

My first thought to this question, "Who cares?" It was a good story back in the time and who cares if it is canon or not?

For it to be canon today would mean we would need a scene with Spider-Man and Wolverine, sitting at a table, drinking some beers.
Peter: Remember that time in Germany?"
Wolverine: "Sure do bub."
Peter: "Good times.
With a * that says, "References in the classic Spider-man vs Wolverine GN on sale now."

Now it is canon, we dedicated a page of a current comic to reference.

But why? Perhaps there is a character we want to use. A villain. It is a part of a bigger story arc? But if there is nothing necessary from that storyline then it doesn't matter.

It was a story you read, you enjoyed or didn't enjoy. It is simply there.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

My first thought to this question, "Who cares?" It was a good story back in the time and who cares if it is canon or not?

For it to be canon today would mean we would need a scene with Spider-Man and Wolverine, sitting at a table, drinking some beers.
Peter: Remember that time in Germany?"
Wolverine: "Sure do bub."
Peter: "Good times.
With a * that says, "References in the classic Spider-man vs Wolverine GN on sale now."

Now it is canon, we dedicated a page of a current comic to reference.

But why? Perhaps there is a character we want to use. A villain. It is a part of a bigger story arc? But if there is nothing necessary from that storyline then it doesn't matter.

It was a story you read, you enjoyed or didn't enjoy. It is simply there.

Agree with the overall sentiment, but given the bizarre, humilating, and traumatic stuff happened...I doubt Peter and Wolverine would ever nostalgically reminisce about this time.

[Yvonmukluk]

It was referred to/had a sequel story in Marvel Comics #1000, so I think it counts.

[Huntsman Spider]

It was referred to/had a sequel story in Marvel Comics #1000, so I think it counts.

By the same writer, too. It was also referenced in Amazing Spider-Man #655 by Dan Slott when Peter, traumatized by his own guilt after being unable to save Marla Madison-Jameson from being killed by Alistair Smythe in the previous issue, had a nightmare in which he saw the faces of everyone who'd died on "his watch," including Charlie, whom his subconscious noted was the one death he'd had a more direct hand in causing, even if it was an accident on his part. Daredevil #5 by Chip Zdarsky had Spider-Man referring back to this as well when he tried to convince Daredevil to put away the costume after Daredevil accidentally killed someone and went into a bit of a self-destructive spiral over it.

[Hypestyle]

bring Priest back for a spider-man mini series.

[Huntsman Spider]

bring Priest back for a spider-man mini series.

Does Spider-Force from Spider-Geddon count? Because he did write that one, starring Scarlet Spider (Kaine Parker), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), and Ashley Barton from Old Man Logan, and introducing an A/U John Jameson as "Astro-Spider" and a juvenile delinquent version of Peter Parker, calling himself "Charlie," as Spider-Kid.

[Orbus]

When it comes to era specific stuff in classic stories Marvel generally has an attitude of 'if you don't bring it up we wont'. A few writers here and there have retconned aspects of classic stories that date them like which Tony Stark getting the shrapnel in his chest from in Vietnam to Afghanistan and the conflict Reed Richards and Ben Grimm served together in WWII, Viet Nam, last I remember Claremont did the 'right' thing by making it an non specific foreign conflict that kinda resembled the Gulf war. For the most though even when referencing classic stories they gloss over era specific details that date the story.

[WebLurker]

So long story short is that the bare bones of the story (Spider-Man and Wolverine got tangled up with spies in Europe which got Charlie and Ned killed) count but the specifics (Germany and Berlin Wall) do not?