Anybody missing superbro, here?

[JAK]

Yeah but Batman won where it counted lol:

I have to say: this image was crap then, and it's still crap. I mean, it's meant as a semi-meta reference, of course, referring to how much press DOS got. I get that. But there was a lot to like up to 1999, and a fair bit after, as well.

And Post-Crisis wasn't one-note or unemotional. Some of the later Pre-Flashpoint stuff was (imo) could be bland at times, but the majority of things before that was pretty solid character and character growth.

To each their own, of course, but I like maturity in my Superman along with the rest. It sets him apart.

[Yoda]

A lot of stuff was remixed into the New 52 Superman. There's a lot of Golden Age stuff, but there's also a really really heavy Bronze Age inspiration there too.

New 52 was definitely sold as a modern re-telling in the early issues. Just a modern re-telling of the Golden and Silver age stuff.

That's the point. Outside of forums like this no one knows or cares about Golden Age or Bronze Age Superman stories. Whether that is a good or bad thing is besides the point. The early Spider-Man stories are still pretty widely read and more importantly have filtered into the modern readers consciousness (largely through pop culture and the movies) in a way that golden age, silver age, and definitely bronze age Superman simply has not. Ultimate Spider-Man was like a cover album of greatest hits. New 52 Superman was definitely was not.

[Sacred Knight]

I would say that's a very flawed conclusion to come to that no one cares, or that only people on this particular forum care. I see very little proof of that. Yes we can bring up that there are plenty of people who love a post-Crisis incarnation. But there are also plenty who don't. How do you quantify how much of what? Just from what is said online? Because right off the bat there there's a disconnect because what is said online and what actually sells in regards to stories never lines up. Sales tell the story that plenty of different incarnations hold people's interest. Anything Superman-related can and has sold in modern times. That tells me right there that there's interest in stories based on plenty of other eras than just the post-Crisis guy. Things don't leave shelves if people don't care. Even in regards to other media, the most popular Superman movies to date are STILL the Reeve films, where are very pre-Crisis. So public consciousness still has a stronger dose of that than you let on.

[Vordan]

I guess it doesn't matter that all the Trinity were supposed to come off as compromised and not in their best state during this argument? Like Batman was full-on Batjerk here, even Alfred called him out on it.

Haha man do you know how many times I made that exact argument every time someone would post this pic on social media and a bunch of people would show up to cheer on Bats for being a dick? At the end of the day though, no it doesn’t matter. No one cares about the context, Batman btfo of Supes and he was reduced to looking like he was about to cry. Maybe it would’ve evened out if Supes fought back but he didn’t so Bats “won”. It’s like that episode of the DCAU where Darkseid comes to ask for help, Supes is pissed and doesn’t want to help because of the events of Legacy, and he thinks Darkseid will betray them. Bats basically tells him “lol get over it” and Supes doesn’t point out the hypocrisy at all. He just takes the abuse like a kicked puppy. Fair or unfair, all anyone remembers is Bats “owning” him while Supes takes an L.

I have to say: this image was crap then, and it's still crap. I mean, it's meant as a semi-meta reference, of course, referring to how much press DOS got. I get that. But there was a lot to like up to 1999, and a fair bit after, as well.

And Post-Crisis wasn't one-note or unemotional. Some of the later Pre-Flashpoint stuff was (imo) could be bland at times, but the majority of things before that was pretty solid character and character growth.

To each their own, of course, but I like maturity in my Superman along with the rest. It sets him apart.

It depends on how you define “maturity”. Do I want Supes grinding his teeth and having red eyes every time someone takes a cheap shot? No of course not. But there should be some “don’t tug on Superman’s cape” to him and I don’t believe he should turn the other cheek or be reduced to tears every time someone says he sucks without pushing back. And ultimately I hold one of Supes flaws to be that he does care about what others think of him, and he would be angry at someone berating him like this when said person has plenty of war crimes that Supes could’ve brought up to retaliate. For God’s sake Clark you could at least tell Bruce to shove it and ask him what the point of Brother Eye was if he really didn’t care about “control”. Anything to make you look less impotent.

I don’t think Post Crisis is one note. He did bring a lot that I think is worthwhile (Being a journalist because it’s something he can compete at on equal level with everyone, thinking of himself as Clark first, wanting Lois to like him as Clark, etc). Bland is a different story, though. I can’t help but feel that the reason the soap opera aspects involving other characters were such a big part of the triangle era is because Post Crisis Clark himself is pretty boring. He just lacks a fire to him that others had. Superman needs to have some degree of alienation to him, it’s what drove the Pre Crisis, Donner, Smallville, New 52, and now Rebirth versions, and I think it’s a crucial part of the character. Byrne Supes doesn’t have that. Once he revealed himself to Lois, that was basically it in terms of his character development. His parents were alive and well, everyone in Metropolis loved him except the incredibly evil villains, he didn’t struggle with his Kryptonian heritage since he firmly considered himself a human. He just didn’t have any internal struggles left and I think that’s what ended up leading to the floundering of the last few years before Johns and Busiek took over the books.

[Vordan]

That's the point. Outside of forums like this no one knows or cares about Golden Age or Bronze Age Superman stories. Whether that is a good or bad thing is besides the point. The early Spider-Man stories are still pretty widely read and more importantly have filtered into the modern readers consciousness (largely through pop culture and the movies) in a way that golden age, silver age, and definitely bronze age Superman simply has not. Ultimate Spider-Man was like a cover album of greatest hits. New 52 Superman was definitely was not.

That’s fascinating to me that’s how you see it given that I see Morrison’s run very much as a “greatest takes” run. It’s just that your average casual has never read a Superman comic and doesn’t even know what Superman’s greatest takes are. But we’ve got Golden Age Superman fighting the corrupt Metropolis elite, then he transitions into Silver Age Superman who beats Brainiac and gets the Fortress, Krypto, Kryptonite, and 5-D imps, and then the run ends with him in the Bronze/Modern Age asking “must there be a Superman?” and fighting Superdoomsday in a pretty clear cut metanalysis of the Death of Superman and WB’s treatment of Superman in the modern age:

5FB65046-AD6B-4311-A75E-C28463EBA104.jpg
(God still so perfectly representative of WB especially given this was pre-BvS)

[Yoda]

That’s fascinating to me that’s how you see it given that I see Morrison’s run very much as a “greatest takes” run. It’s just that your average casual has never read a Superman comic and doesn’t even know what Superman’s greatest takes are. But we’ve got Golden Age Superman fighting the corrupt Metropolis elite, then he transitions into Silver Age Superman who beats Brainiac and gets the Fortress, Krypto, Kryptonite, and 5-D imps, and then the run run ends with him in the Bronze/Modern Age asking “must there be a Superman?” and fighting Superdoomsday in a pretty clear cut metanalysis of the Death of Superman and WB’s treatment of Superman in the modern age:
5FB65046-AD6B-4311-A75E-C28463EBA104.jpg
(God still so perfectly representative of WB especially given this was pre-BvS)

My point is its a "greatest hits" for niche fans. Ultimate Spider-Man is the greatest hits for the general audience.

[Vordan]

My point is its a "greatest hits" for niche fans. Ultimate Spider-Man is the greatest hits for the general audience.

Hmmm fair enough. But that just means we really have needed more Superman outside medium, be that a cartoon, TV show, video game, or movie, that actually digs into the Supermythos besides Lex, Zod, and Kryptonite. We’re getting that Superman & Lois show at least.

[Flash Gordon]

That's the point. Outside of forums like this no one knows or cares about Golden Age or Bronze Age Superman stories. Whether that is a good or bad thing is besides the point. The early Spider-Man stories are still pretty widely read and more importantly have filtered into the modern readers consciousness (largely through pop culture and the movies) in a way that golden age, silver age, and definitely bronze age Superman simply has not. Ultimate Spider-Man was like a cover album of greatest hits. New 52 Superman was definitely was not.

Sure, a lot of Superman readers aren't well versed in everything Superman-they shouldn't have to be. Superman's history is not niche among comic book readers, though. A lot of fans of the character aren't reading the modern stuff because it doesn't fit their sensibilities.

There's a lot of beautiful material out there that isn't Post-Crisis.

[SiegePerilous02]

That's the point. Outside of forums like this no one knows or cares about Golden Age or Bronze Age Superman stories. Whether that is a good or bad thing is besides the point. The early Spider-Man stories are still pretty widely read and more importantly have filtered into the modern readers consciousness (largely through pop culture and the movies) in a way that golden age, silver age, and definitely bronze age Superman simply has not. Ultimate Spider-Man was like a cover album of greatest hits. New 52 Superman was definitely was not.

My point is its a "greatest hits" for niche fans. Ultimate Spider-Man is the greatest hits for the general audience.

Why would fans of the Golden/Silver age stuff be any more of a niche audience than the readers who prefer the modern takes? Every comic reader is a member of a niche audience, because comics are not mainstream entertainment. If Ultimate Spider-Man is for a general audience, it is being aimed at people who want to pick up a fresh new take without being burdened by convoluted continuity. It was essentially an easily accessible gateway drug, and it actually doesn't matter what they drew from. They could have done anything and it would have had an audience as long as it broadly appeared to be a Spider-Man with a clear beginning, middle and end.

Meanwhile, it's not as if the modern post-COIE eras of Superman has many elements that made it into the wider pop culture consciousness. There is his death and that's pretty much it. Lois is cemented as his #1 love interest but not necessarily as his wife among those who don't read comics, the most well known Supergirl now is the Silver Age one, and everything else that most casuals are half way aware of (Daily Planet, Kryptonite, Lex as an arch rival, JL membership) exist across almost all eras. Compared to Peter, I wouldn't say Clark has as eventful of a later day life to draw from. If a movie or series drew from the older comics and was executed well, it has as much of a chance of being well received as a take that borrows from post-COIE stuff. The casuals simply do NOT care that much either way, not like we do in placed likes this.

Hmmm fair enough. But that just means we really have needed more Superman outside medium, be that a cartoon, TV show, video game, or movie, that actually digs into the Supermythos besides Lex, Zod, and Kryptonite. We’re getting that Superman & Lois show at least.

It's pretty bad that we barely get any Mxy, Brainiac, Bizarro or the Legion of Superheroes in major outside media. Or more specifically movies, who cannot get away from Lex and Zod for a change.

[The World]

Yeah every fight between Superman and Batman pre New 52 ended with Batman on the losing end.

It's been a while but wasn't Tower of Babel a storyline that said if anyone could take down the Justice League it would be Batman. Wasn't Hush Bruce dancing around Clark and coming out the clear winner.

If it's "okay" when the New 52 version did it ... I guess that's good enough? So it's not really about what happens but whether or not it happens in a "good" continuity. As long as understanding is extended to a Superman I guess that's nice

Also, by Williamson arc's logic Wonder Woman is the boss of both of them, lol

Anything the N52 Superman did that dropped his standing as Superman isn't "okay" in my book. My gold standard is the Golden Age Superman with the Silver Age as a distant second. Any Superman that can't hit the standard imo shouldn't be wearing the cape. To me if you're going to put Superman and Batman and they aren't two guys that happen to meet by coincidence, looked beneath the surface level differences and found a person that they actually had a lot in common with then I have to wonder why even bother? Williamson first arc didn't have any of that but his second arc did and imo it was night and day.

As for the Wonder Woman thing. It was an arc where Superman and Batman acted like cut rate dolts they earned it. I can honestly say I didn't have an issue with it but frankly I don't know why Superman seeing the TBWL under the Hall of Justice didn't set off the common sense detector in his head and go "I should probably say or do something about this". At least Andy Griffith had common sense. But then again this is a Superman that saw Batman getting brainwashed by the Justice League and went "Yeah, sure, whatever as long as Lois is okay".

So its okay for Superman to push other people around but they're not allowed to do the same to him?

For the first 50 or so years for Superman to my knowledge and following the example of his creators Superman didn't push people around unless they were preying on others or were trying to encroach him. Yeah he was plenty aggressive about it but he never did anything that the receiver didn't earn through their own actions. If someone pushed him then he was fine pushing back and had no problem throwing down with anyone if they didn't get the message. This started before Batman and most other heroes even existed.

[Frontier]

I guess the New 52 was like the Ultimate Universe in that it was trying to clear the deck, condense, and "freshen up" the DC heroes for new and modern audiences. It's just the execution and making it the definitive continuity instead of an independent line like the Ultimate Universe that may have proved it's undoing. Especially when no reboot from DC has ever been able to completley buckle under the weight of the past continuity it was trying to replace.

Although it's funny to bring up Ultimate Spider-Man in relation to the New 52 Superman...not to get back to "shipping" but USM had Mary Jane in Peter's high school years and going to class with him when that was never the case originally, and she was the de-facto main love interest for most of the run. In contrast New 52 Supes' romance with Wonder Woman is like if they took the romance between Peter and Kitty Pryde and stretched it out and put more emphasis on it.

(Oh man, New 52 Lana is totally Ultimate Gwen).

Although for the record I thought the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon did USM's job better then USM did.

Meanwhile, it's not as if the modern post-COIE eras of Superman has many elements that made it into the wider pop culture consciousness. There is his death and that's pretty much it. Lois is cemented as his #1 love interest but not necessarily as his wife among those who don't read comics, the most well known Supergirl now is the Silver Age one, and everything else that most casuals are half way aware of (Daily Planet, Kryptonite, Lex as an arch rival, JL membership) exist across almost all eras. Compared to Peter, I wouldn't say Clark has as eventful of a later day life to draw from. If a movie or series drew from the older comics and was executed well, it has as much of a chance of being well received as a take that borrows from post-COIE stuff. The casuals simply do NOT care that much either way, not like we do in placed likes this

I think depictions of the Planet, Lois, modern Clark, the Lois and Clark dynamic, and the handling of the (can't say anything with supp- now apparently) cast in general owes a lot to Post-Crisis.

Lex is generally seen as the late Post-Crisis merge of Byrne Luthor with old school mad scientist Luthor.

It's pretty bad that we barely get any Mxy, Brainiac, Bizarro or the Legion of Superheroes in major outside media. Or more specifically movies, who cannot get away from Lex and Zod for a change.

If we're just limiting it to the movies then yeah, but the characters you mention are frequently used in outside media.

[The World]

Also this thing I see tossed around about how Golden Age Superman is outdated or doesn't work, or doesn't sell and we need to stick with Little House on the Prairie era Superman because that's what sells is bogus. Everything that made Golden Age Superman great and so inspiring that it redefined comics and created what we know to be the modern Superhero is present in the Captain America of today who has unironically been called Superman done right time and time again. This happening as the Post-Crisis model has continued to see diminishing returns year after year and we're currently at the point where Supergirl is being pushed as the stronger, tougher, more capable version of the character while Supes continues whats been something like a twenty year long prolonged fall from grace. Isn't Hoechlin's Supes suppose to just go to Smallville because his cousin basically moved into Metropolis and set up shop something that would have been utterly unthinkable following the kind of grit, determination, and sheer passion a Golden or Silver Age Superman would have been known for.

[SiegePerilous02]

Although for the record I thought the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon did USM's job better then USM did.

100% truth.

Ultimate Spider-Man's superpower as a comic was taking every single classic villains and somehow making them way less interesting than their regular counterparts, at least from what I remember. Hulk!Goblin is the worst, but Steve Blum-voiced GG from Spec is the absolute best

I think depictions of the Planet, Lois, modern Clark, the Lois and Clark dynamic, and the handling of the (can't say anything with supp- now apparently) cast in general owes a lot to Post-Crisis.

There is that, I think it was refined there, but aside from the Silver Age (in which they did non-stop wacky nonsense and never seemed to get any actual work done in that office) it was present throughout the character's history. Part of the post-COIE goal was to streamline things back to the Golden Age (and very debatable if they succeeded) and the roots of the office dynamics are in the Golden Age.

Plus the big thing to come out of that setting is and always will be Lois anyway. Post-COIE aimed to restore some of the character's original competence and fire that she lost in the transition to the Silver Age. It was less of a total overhaul of Lois and more a restoration.

If we're just limiting it to the movies then yeah, but the characters you mention are frequently used in outside media.

Yes, but the movies are the biggest possible deal and reach the widest audiences. It's the surest way to make them the most visible.

[Kuwagaton]

Haha man do you know how many times I made that exact argument every time someone would post this pic on social media and a bunch of people would show up to cheer on Bats for being a dick? At the end of the day though, no it doesn’t matter.

This probably sounds petty of me given the terribleness of that scene, but I write off 2004 as the end of the Byrne Superman. Where Casey does a heartfelt clip show and he literally jumps into Birthright. The continuity is technically the same, but never seems to matter. We don't see like, Keith White or Scorn or anything. All of the main villains have different gimmicks, too. There were so many random creators and fill-in stories, it just didn't have the same appeal.

As for that scene, Johns just does that. He had Superman diss Batman the Lost Hearts crossover first, and he had Jordan one punch Batman (gee get it) only for Batman to return the favor. I guess he likes the alpha heroes to be a wash.

I don’t think Post Crisis is one note. He did bring a lot that I think is worthwhile (Being a journalist because it’s something he can compete at on equal level with everyone, thinking of himself as Clark first, wanting Lois to like him as Clark, etc). Bland is a different story, though. I can’t help but feel that the reason the soap opera aspects involving other characters were such a big part of the triangle era is because Post Crisis Clark himself is pretty boring. He just lacks a fire to him that others had. Superman needs to have some degree of alienation to him, it’s what drove the Pre Crisis, Donner, Smallville, New 52, and now Rebirth versions, and I think it’s a crucial part of the character. Byrne Supes doesn’t have that. Once he revealed himself to Lois, that was basically it in terms of his character development. His parents were alive and well, everyone in Metropolis loved him except the incredibly evil villains, he didn’t struggle with his Kryptonian heritage since he firmly considered himself a human. He just didn’t have any internal struggles left and I think that’s what ended up leading to the floundering of the last few years before Johns and Busiek took over the books.

When people mention the silver age influence of New 52 Superman, I'd say it's in the way that Superman is the story. With the golden age he's this guy who goes around metaphorically crushing coal to produce diamonds for people. There are so many people in and out while he's just kinda waiting around to make the story end. If they focus on him alone the story would be four pages. This is how it is for the post Crisis Superman, but with recurring characters instead of endless citizens with pun names. We watch Jimmy struggle with unemployment, Lex battle Mxy, Clark visit ex classmates, etc. These Supermen aren't the story, they're the main characters in a story. There are many interesting things we see or know that they don't because they're not so much our PoV. Kal-L didn't even learn about Krypton until 1949.

As for Superman, his actions speak for him. For all of the extensive plots, seeing him interact and react forms his character. He's a neurotic workhorse. He's a guy who managed to hit Darkseid with his own beam when they first came face to face. He went against pre crisis Kryptonians while recovering from destroying Brianiac in a psychic battle and came out on top. He decided to take a vacation after only to squash two galactic emperors and learn to acknowledge himself as the last son of Krypton in the process. To battle Brainiac he brought virtually every hero together and became leader of the following JL. He was the first of these heroes do essentially the same story idea many would do later (Wolverines, Battle for the Cowl, Who Will Wield the Shield). When Lois left him and the Final Night drained his powers, he not only continued as Superman but covered as Editor so that Perry could go through chemo. From 1998-1999, he took over the entire world to draw out and defeat Dominus. Even the somewhat tired story of Doomsday gives him an arc that goes from giving his life to stop it to over coming the trauma and surviving Doomsday, then stopping Doomsday without either of them dying. He's a guy who is s so good at prioritizing and persistence when it counts that people are think he's invincible despite his goofs and defeats. And for whatever reason while people doubt his intelligence, he trained himself to fight the good fight in virtually any situation in the galaxy.




The New 52 Superman showed a cool attitude and some.of the dialogue and quip writing was definitely updated, buy we also had a year and a half story just to get us up to speed on who he is versus handling that in a mini and just having him go ham on anything you could think up.

That's the point. Outside of forums like this no one knows or cares about Golden Age or Bronze Age Superman stories.

Well thanks for the never ending battle bruhs

[Frontier]

100% truth.

Ultimate Spider-Man's superpower as a comic was taking every single classic villains and somehow making them way less interesting than their regular counterparts, at least from what I remember. Hulk!Goblin is the worst, but Steve Blum-voiced GG from Spec is the absolute best

Ultimate Electro's energy form kind of stuck around, but that's about it.

I hate that the show went with mutant lion man Kraven from USM though.

There is that, I think it was refined there, but aside from the Silver Age (in which they did non-stop wacky nonsense and never seemed to get any actual work done in that office) it was present throughout the character's history. Part of the post-COIE goal was to streamline things back to the Golden Age (and very debatable if they succeeded) and the roots of the office dynamics are in the Golden Age.

Plus the big thing to come out of that setting is and always will be Lois anyway. Post-COIE aimed to restore some of the character's original competence and fire that she lost in the transition to the Silver Age. It was less of a total overhaul of Lois and more a restoration.

True, but restoration/reconstruction and modernizing that stuff for a new era is perfectly valid and important in my opinion. I guess it seems to have also "struck gold" as it were by being the baseline for that stuff for most adaptions.

Yes, but the movies are the biggest possible deal and reach the widest audiences. It's the surest way to make them the most visible.

I won't argue that, but outside media like TV shows, cartoons, and even games are important too.