Sue Storm should be an archaeologist

[Crimz]

Seeing as there are no new comics for a while and quarantine has got me bored, I decided to make this a thread.

To begin, many writers have failed Sue in not giving her a particular field of expertise of wants and desires outside of the family like her male teammates do. It is sadly common with female heroes from the silver age. I believe that should change. As she will almost definitely have a career field in her MCU debut, 616 Sue should have had one decades ago.

The filed that I believe suits her and her dynamic as a part of the Fantastic Four is being an archaeologist. But not just an archaeologist, but a Xeno-archaeologist which is a mostly fictional field as it involves alien cultures. This way it would encompass the more cosmic elements associated with the Fantastic Four and add an interesting spin to the field.
Sue being an archaeologist fits the adventure aspect of her team and gives her more agency both in and out of it.
Instead of it always being Reed dictating where the team goes for an adventure, Sue could find something on a dig or want to investigate a particular place. When you add the extra-terrestrial aspect to it, there are tons of interesting avenues to go with it.
It's also a career that doesn't many Marvel heroes occupying it so she could truly make it her own that people associate with her. Which can't be said for her recent adventure as a spy which has many heroes associated with it. When you ask someone about heroes who are spies; Black Widow, Spider-Woman, Hawkeye, and Mockingbird would all spring to mind way before Sue.

What I enjoy about the possibility is that Marvel already did it. In Fantastic Four: The End, a story that took place in a alt-future, Sue is an archaeologist and is on a cool Tomb Raider/Indiana Jones-like adventure. The prospect is already there and I think Marvel should do it.




For Reed it's often about the science, but for Sue it's often about the people. The above shows how being an archaeologist could show that, with her being interested in the culture and what they could learn from it.

[JackDaw]

It's too late now...but the Fantastic Four might have been an even better comic IF Reed had never been written as an omni-genius on all aspects of science, and the other three had been written as having some speciality in which they were actually Reed's superior.

I like your idea about Sue (while recognising it almost certainly will never happen), whilst also wishing that Ben and Johhny also had some similar areas of expertise.

I think doing it this way would have made a lot more sense at all sorts of levels. Let me give one example:-

At university Ben and Reed were best friends spending a lot of time together...

Why?? Reed has never struck me as sort of guy that would like some one because they were a star athlete, or would spend loads of time in small talk. It would make much more sense if they were both interested in science...with Reed being the theory man, and Ben being the guy with the practical skills to build things.

[Doombot]

100% this should be added to the character. It would make both her and the FF stronger and more interesting.

[CaptCleghorn]

It's too late now...but the Fantastic Four might have been an even better comic IF Reed had never been written as an omni-genius on all aspects of science, and the other three had been written as having some speciality in which they were actually Reed's superior.

I like your idea about Sue (while recognising it almost certainly will never happen), whilst also wishing that Ben and Johhny also had some similar areas of expertise.

I think doing it this way would have made a lot more sense at all sorts of levels. Let me give one example:-

At university Ben and Reed were best friends spending a lot of time together...

Why?? Reed has never struck me as sort of guy that would like some one because they were a star athlete, or would spend loads of time in small talk. It would make much more sense if they were both interested in science...with Reed being the theory man, and Ben being the guy with the practical skills to build things.

A couple of points here. The FF were created in 1961 and although it "would have been nice" to see societal advancements shown then, it's more unrealistic than men stretching or bursting into flames or a woman turning invisible. My usual rant is that the FF took the freaking exact cast of Sea Devils, Rip Hunter Time Master, and Cave Carson. The scientist, the GF, her little brother (although with Cave Carson, the pesky kid wasn't actually the brother), and the scientist's big tough brawny buddy. The FF cast was based on a model focused on the leader role. Unlike the Challengers of the Unknowns, it was designed to be Batman and three Robins.

As for the Reed/Ben friendship. Lee and Kirby had originally designed Reed to be a far more affable guy. But as time whet on, Reed's idiosyncrasies came out. Originally, the two weren't as far off. But with the development of Reed's personality, he and Ben did seem unlikely buds. But, Ben has been a guy to never put up with "specialness". He's down-to-earth and a brainy kid deserves the same treatment. Reed's undoubtedly noticed how people treat him differently because of his academic status. Ben didn't care. Conversely, Ben was a football hero and got the same fake attitudes from people. Reed, conversely, didn't care about Ben's athletic records. Seems like a pair that should go together.

[CaptCleghorn]

Seeing as there are no new comics for a while and quarantine has got me bored, I decided to make this a thread.

To begin, many writers have failed Sue in not giving her a particular field of expertise of wants and desires outside of the family like her male teammates do. It is sadly common with female heroes from the silver age. I believe that should change. As she will almost definitely have a career field in her MCU debut, 616 Sue should have had one decades ago.

The filed that I believe suits her and her dynamic as a part of the Fantastic Four is being an archaeologist. But not just an archaeologist, but a Xeno-archaeologist which is a mostly fictional field as it involves alien cultures. This way it would encompass the more cosmic elements associated with the Fantastic Four and add an interesting spin to the field.

I'm blowing my own horn (BTW, not as fun as it sounds), in the Age of Marvels - New Universe thread, Sue is an MD as well as an actual US Senator. Please check it out and buy the FF book, willya; the FF writer keeps hounding me.

[DrNewGod]

I like your idea. In my head-canon, Sue was always the group's business manager, Ben the engineer (most astronauts were in the 60s) and Johnny an ace mechanic.

[Crimz]

It's too late now...but the Fantastic Four might have been an even better comic IF Reed had never been written as an omni-genius on all aspects of science, and the other three had been written as having some speciality in which they were actually Reed's superior.

I like your idea about Sue (while recognising it almost certainly will never happen), whilst also wishing that Ben and Johhny also had some similar areas of expertise.

I think doing it this way would have made a lot more sense at all sorts of levels. Let me give one example:-

At university Ben and Reed were best friends spending a lot of time together...

Why?? Reed has never struck me as sort of guy that would like some one because they were a star athlete, or would spend loads of time in small talk. It would make much more sense if they were both interested in science...with Reed being the theory man, and Ben being the guy with the practical skills to build things.

I know it's unlikely to happen, but Marvel has to give her something. The films most definitely will. It may lead to the first time where I'd want Marvel to synergize their books with the films.

A couple of points here. The FF were created in 1961 and although it "would have been nice" to see societal advancements shown then, it's more unrealistic than men stretching or bursting into flames or a woman turning invisible. My usual rant is that the FF took the freaking exact cast of Sea Devils, Rip Hunter Time Master, and Cave Carson. The scientist, the GF, her little brother (although with Cave Carson, the pesky kid wasn't actually the brother), and the scientist's big tough brawny buddy. The FF cast was based on a model focused on the leader role. Unlike the Challengers of the Unknowns, it was designed to be Batman and three Robins.

As for the Reed/Ben friendship. Lee and Kirby had originally designed Reed to be a far more affable guy. But as time whet on, Reed's idiosyncrasies came out. Originally, the two weren't as far off. But with the development of Reed's personality, he and Ben did seem unlikely buds. But, Ben has been a guy to never put up with "specialness". He's down-to-earth and a brainy kid deserves the same treatment. Reed's undoubtedly noticed how people treat him differently because of his academic status. Ben didn't care. Conversely, Ben was a football hero and got the same fake attitudes from people. Reed, conversely, didn't care about Ben's athletic records. Seems like a pair that should go together.

That explained my biggest problem with the team and I think it is part of why they tend to often feel stagnant nowadays. It's past time that they are no longer treated like Reed and his 3 assistants. They're called the Fantastic Four, Sue, Johnny, and Ben really need more development and provide more to the team than following Reed's orders. It's a scientific adventure team and they should all embody that in some way not solely Reed. You can't have one guy doing everything and call it a team, the other 3 should be more than just muscle to buy time for Reed to come up with something.

Too many writers have given Sue feats of power instead of actual development and thought that solved the issue.

I'm blowing my own horn (BTW, not as fun as it sounds), in the Age of Marvels - New Universe thread, Sue is an MD as well as an actual US Senator. Please check it out and buy the FF book, willya; the FF writer keeps hounding me.

I'll be sure to check it out.

[Riv86672]

I like your idea. In my head-canon, Sue was always the group's business manager, Ben the engineer (most astronauts were in the 60s) and Johnny an ace mechanic.

Nice.
Considering the FF are a superpowered Challengers of The Unknown (and each of the Challs had a specialty; Scientist/Pilot/Daredevil/Wrestler/and June the team’s one female was actually an archeologist), i sometimes wondered why the FF didn’t go that route.

Sue especially, suffered for it.
Johnny has always been known as a race car driver/mechanic, Ben as a pilot, Reed as the brain...and then there’s Sue.

[Iron Maiden]

I would be happy if they did just about anything with Sue. I liked that one alternate reality version of her, and Crimz you have mentioned this too, where she was a doctor. This would be following in the footsteps of her father. In Marvel Knights 4 she was a teacher. It wouldn't be a bad idea if she and Johnny would both run the "family business" of the FF. There are many people who have become highly successful without having an MBA or anything. This would get past the issue of Sue (and Johnny for the matter) not having the required credentials, etc for other professions.

Now a solution to that might be that Reed try to do something with time, similar to what Doom has done, and that is to freeze time so that they can spend whatever time is needed to acquire the education needed. Then they would return to "real time"

[DrNewGod]

In someways, making the FF Reed-centric was an understandable creature of the times. Kirby was cribbing not only his own Challengers when creating the FF, but Sci-Fi and Monster movies of the day, and those frequently featured a central-character and his sidekicks.

...Too many writers have given Sue feats of power instead of actual development and thought that solved the issue...

IMO Byrne did the best by Sue. Not only did he dial up her powers and her skill at using them, she played a much stronger role in the group, taking over in Reed's absence during their extended Negative Zone jaunt. Her taking leadership in the 1990s during Reed's "death" built on the foundation Byrne provided.

All that said, Byrne didn't give her an expertise of her own, and her greater authority seemed to come out of nowhere under his writing.

As a side note, Silver-Bronze Marvel didn't seem to have anything as egalitarian as the Justice League at DC. The Avengers were for about their first year, but from then on, they tended to defer to strong leaders like Captain America or Iron Man, in the same way Reed tended to dominate the FF, Dr. Strange the Defenders, and Prof. X the X-Men.

[gurkle]

One way I could see of making the team less Reed-centric would be for him to get less control over his own powers than the other three. You wouldn’t even have to change anything, just say that he’s spent so much time on science that he hasn’t mastered his powers as much as he might have.

The Storm siblings are not (and IMO should not be) geniuses, but they are experts on their own powers. They have to be, because Johnny’s powers are unbelievably dangerous and Sue’s powerset is very confusing and not clearly defined. They both have been forced to test and learn the limits and applications of their power in a way Reed doesn’t, because his power is almost secondary to his science-genius work.

In Lee/Kirby comics, Reed and other male leads would often tell the women how to use their powers (Lee famously would write this in even if the drawing showed the woman working alone). Why not flip that and show that Reed has never mastered using his abilities to their fullest, something that depends less on research than on instinct and necessity?

[Doombot]

One way I could see of making the team less Reed-centric would be for him to get less control over his own powers than the other three. You wouldn’t even have to change anything, just say that he’s spent so much time on science that he hasn’t mastered his powers as much as he might have.

The Storm siblings are not (and IMO should not be) geniuses, but they are experts on their own powers. They have to be, because Johnny’s powers are unbelievably dangerous and Sue’s powerset is very confusing and not clearly defined. They both have been forced to test and learn the limits and applications of their power in a way Reed doesn’t, because his power is almost secondary to his science-genius work.

In Lee/Kirby comics, Reed and other male leads would often tell the women how to use their powers (Lee famously would write this in even if the drawing showed the woman working alone). Why not flip that and show that Reed has never mastered using his abilities to their fullest, something that depends less on research than on instinct and necessity?

Interestingly, this idea was kind of used by Hickman (I think) for Ben. Ben is the only member that unknowingly used his powers 24/7 since their exposure, resulting in him not being able to "turn off" his abilities like the other member and revert to his human form. The other member can relax and not use their powers, only using them in emergencies or fights etc. A sad irony for Ben, he never knew he could just turn his powers off.

[Crimz]

I would be happy if they did just about anything with Sue. I liked that one alternate reality version of her, and Crimz you have mentioned this too, where she was a doctor. This would be following in the footsteps of her father. In Marvel Knights 4 she was a teacher. It wouldn't be a bad idea if the and Johnny would both run the "family business" of the FF. There are many people who have become highly successful without having an MBA or anything. This would get past the issue of Sue (and Johnny for the matter) not having the required credentials, etc for other professions.

Now a solution to that might be that Reed try to do something with time, similar to what Doom has done, and that is to freeze time so that they can spend whatever time is needed to acquire the education needed. Then they would return to "real time"

Yeah I just want them to do something with her and Johnny too. I prefer the more "active" roles like doctor and archaeologist because they can be incorporated into the teams adventures.
In Sue's case they can just define what her mystery doctorate is. That is another example of a half-hearted way to make her seem more capable. I think it was Fraction, that said she had a doctorate but never said what it was...

In someways, making the FF Reed-centric was an understandable creature of the times. Kirby was cribbing not only his own Challengers when creating the FF, but Sci-Fi and Monster movies of the day, and those frequently featured a central-character and his sidekicks.



IMO Byrne did the best by Sue. Not only did he dial up her powers and her skill at using them, she played a much stronger role in the group, taking over in Reed's absence during their extended Negative Zone jaunt. Her taking leadership in the 1990s during Reed's "death" built on the foundation Byrne provided.

All that said, Byrne didn't give her an expertise of her own, and her greater authority seemed to come out of nowhere under his writing.

As a side note, Silver-Bronze Marvel didn't seem to have anything as egalitarian as the Justice League at DC. The Avengers were for about their first year, but from then on, they tended to defer to strong leaders like Captain America or Iron Man, in the same way Reed tended to dominate the FF, Dr. Strange the Defenders, and Prof. X the X-Men.

I understand that the initial dynamic was a product of the times, but nearly 60 years later it shouldn't still be the case. The other two Marvel teams have grown past that (X-Men more than the Avengers), while the FF haven't. It's long overdue that things become more balanced with the Fantastic Four.

One way I could see of making the team less Reed-centric would be for him to get less control over his own powers than the other three. You wouldn’t even have to change anything, just say that he’s spent so much time on science that he hasn’t mastered his powers as much as he might have.

The Storm siblings are not (and IMO should not be) geniuses, but they are experts on their own powers. They have to be, because Johnny’s powers are unbelievably dangerous and Sue’s powerset is very confusing and not clearly defined. They both have been forced to test and learn the limits and applications of their power in a way Reed doesn’t, because his power is almost secondary to his science-genius work.

In Lee/Kirby comics, Reed and other male leads would often tell the women how to use their powers (Lee famously would write this in even if the drawing showed the woman working alone). Why not flip that and show that Reed has never mastered using his abilities to their fullest, something that depends less on research than on instinct and necessity?

I think focusing on the powers is what writers have been doing, at least for Sue, and that's part of the problem. It doesn't fix the actual issue, which is that for a team that's about scientific adventure only one member encompasses it. That's what I think needs to change, all of them should be involved in that goal in some way. For Ben I think it should be emphasizing his piloting and the reason he became an astronaut. For Johnny it could be focusing on his mechanical skills (which Slott seems to be doing). For Sue it's finally giving her a field of expertise like the others have.
She doesn't and shouldn't be genius, that's Reed's thing. You don't have to be a genius to be an archaeologist or even a doctor/surgeon, you just need to dedicated and a really hard worker.

[DrNewGod]

...I understand that the initial dynamic was a product of the times, but nearly 60 years later it shouldn't still be the case. The other two Marvel teams have grown past that (X-Men more than the Avengers), while the FF haven't. It's long overdue that things become more balanced with the Fantastic Four...

I fully agree. I was poking around in the "why is it this way" more than the "how it should be now" part of the question.

[Ichijinijisanji]

Should she go to college for it as an ongoing thing, or just pick it up, or should a flashback retcon be added?

I can see her invisibility powers being used to uncover things without physically uncovering them, and can make for interesting constructs.