Results 1 to 7 of 7
  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,820

    Default Rank Sidious’s Students (Multiple Ways)

    I thought about this while doing a mishmash of my two favorite Star Wars conversations right now: decrying Kylo Ren as a wasted talent badguy and character, and enjoying the crud out of Maul in animation.

    So... I thought it might be fun to gather all the on-film students of Sidious and see how we’d rank them, both in terms of threat level, and in terms of coolness/iconic nature/just plain impressiveness as villains.

    In the films, the guys who we see and know specifically as Sidious’s students/apprentices are these, in chronological order:

    Maul
    Dooku/Tyraanus
    Anakin/Vader
    Ben/Kylo (through Snoke his meat puppet)

    So... if I had to give them a rank for threat level, I think I’d go with this:

    1. Vader - He’s the man who carried out the Great Jedi Purge, was a relentless and ruthless military commander, was the most powerful of Sidious’s students when he turned, and even after being put in the suit, remained second only to the Emperor in terms of full dark side power. He also won his final duel with Dooku pretty handily, and was already able to tangle with him even when a hot headed a Jedi Apprentice. His one serious loss before Luke reached his peak training was to Obi-Wan, and that was due to a mistake on his part, one he specifically made sure to never repeat again, and Obi-Wan having the best style and knowledge a Jedi could hope for when facing young Vader.

    2. Dooku - Dooku’s only serious loss ever was to Anakin at the height of his powers, and his prowess with the saber is canonically among the greatest on film (Sir Christopher’s age not withstanding). He also managed to be an effective lieutenant and partner to Sidious during their conspiracy during the Clone Wars, effectively acting as a political and military leader of the Separatists while managing it as a massive false flag operation. Where Vader is power and relentlessness, Dooku is finesse and deception.

    3. Kylo - This one I’m not really enthusiastic about, as I think he’s easily the most unstable and foolish of the students, coasting far more on brute force and raw power than the others. Still, he has Skywalker-level strength, and was the First Order’s leader for a time. Having said that, I don’t know how he’d fair if he and the last contestant had equal resources...

    4. Maul - ...Because Maul’s biggest drawback is that he was the subtle assassin and secret agent of Sidious when he was the apprentice, and thus never got to bask in the power of being charged with one of Sidious’s armies. Skill wise, he’s probably comparable to Dooku, since he managed to engage both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time, though more susceptible to emotional instability when separated from his master, and has an Anakin style arrogance and mistake lead to him being almost a proto-Vader in defeat and suffering. Still, he’s eloquent, cunning, and scrappy as hell; he’s the only one of Sidious’s students to be cast aside and actually keep chugging along, and rather impressively manages to claw his way back to power, and actually survive being one of Sidious’s last real threats.

    And in terms of coolness:

    4. Kylo. He’s a bad copy of Anakin/Vader, and nothing more. He’s less sympathetic, less pitiable, less intimidating, less stable, and ultimately shoved into a role he’s ill suited for (male lead and protagonist, instead of villain).

    3. Dooku. As awesome as Christopher Lee is, and as cool as his role in the Clone Wars is, he’s a placeholder Sith Lord.

    2. Maul. Honestly, this guy was almost all style and looks at first. He wouldn’t really be closer to the top of this list if he weren’t resurrected for the cartoons... and then actually expanded on and fleshed out with skill. He’s basically Khan Noonien Singh as a Soth Lord, and with a somehow more traumatizing exile, and with a far more pitiable backstory. Seriously, he’s maybe the most pitiable character on this list - one gets the feeling that the biggest obstacle to him ever being redeemed is that he simply can’t conceive of the world in such terms, since he was raised from birth as Palpatine’s assassin and tool. And honestly, I’d kill to see them actually manage a live action blend of Ray Park and Sam Witwer’s performance.

    1. Vader. Not a whole lot to get into specifically here. This character manages to be one of the most iconic in film history, and pulls double duty as a hero once and a villain later.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  2. #2
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,047

    Default

    I've been asking myself...was Kylo a Sith Lord? I don't think he ever got a "Darth" designation like the others did. I guess the whole name change was meant to be his re-branding as a Sith but I don't know if he was ever functionally a Sith Lord.

    Now that I think about it "Darth Ren" sounds like "Darth Revan" from KOTOR. I forget if that was deliberate.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    3,830

    Default

    Wasn't Maul Dooku's pupil? Wouldn't he be in the same tier as Asajj Ventress? As for Kylo, he isn't a bad copy of Vader so much as he is a bad copy of Revan! So much so that when people first saw the character they thought he was Revan or was going to be linked to him somehow.
    Last edited by Anthony W; 05-05-2020 at 06:04 PM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  4. #4
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,047

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Wasn't Maul Dooku's pupil? Wouldn't he be in the same tier as Asajj Ventress? As for Kylo, he isn't a bad copy of Vader so much as he is a bad copy of Revan! So much so that when people first saw the character they thought he was Revan or was going to be linked to him somehow.
    I don't think Maul knew about Dooku at all. He was Sidius' Apprentice while Dooku was his replacement.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    3,830

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think Maul knew about Dooku at all. He was Sidius' Apprentice while Dooku was his replacement.
    Oh yeah, that is right. Can you imagine how awkward the conversation about going with Maul as second in command over him went?

    Palpatine: Hey, come in. Look this was a tough decision. But I'm going with Maul

    Dooku: The kid with a total lack of finesse, impulse control, face tats and a double bladed lightsaber?

    Palpatine: Yeahhhhh....but don't worry still plenty of opportunity for you going forward.

    Dooku: Is this because of the age thing?
    Last edited by Anthony W; 05-06-2020 at 09:46 AM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,117

    Default

    I think Maul learned "How to Function As A Sith" the best. He started young, put a lot of that training to the test building his own thing. It was a pale shadow of the grander power of Sidious, kind of like oh, the Witch-King's realm of Angmar as a microcosm of the power of Sauron in Mordor (and everywhere else). But it's the real thing - pure. Pure Sith orthodoxy. Hot rage, and cold calculation. And obviously a bodily mastery of Dark Side skill. And kind of "The Natural".

    Dooku, Vader and Ren all began with Jedi training first so there's going to be natural pushback or stubborn habits to break. In some cases they just wouldn't break. Even with someone as iced over and corrupted as Vader. So in that regard - the sort of loyal, orthodox student, I think Maul wins it. Not only that, but of the four that we know about, Maul's the only one Palpatine broke cover for during his "Kind Old Chancellor" phase, went to a hostile world full of Force-killers to find, and literally declared out loud "YOU HAVE BECOME A RIVAL" to.

    Dooku was old already when he fell, so in spite of being a skeptic with a past and present that led him to being susceptible to falling, he's already pretty set in a lot of his ways. He was somebody good who saw how capital-E Evil the Evil was and was like "oh man, can't beat 'em, join 'em". The irony of Christopher Lee portraying him isn't lost here. I mean it's legitimately the Saruman story. And so he sets up this false-flag secondary enemy situation that the heroes have to deal with before they can even start tackling the real villain of the piece. There's some nice nuance. To the fact that he's already a somewhat Count Dracula-esque nobleman from the wild regions to the fact that his friends who don't see eye-to-eye with the zealot Jedi Council are getting killed left and right. He does make some good Sith attempts, with attempts at secret apprentices (Ventress, Opress, Vos) and aspirations to kill Palpatine and rule and be the lesser of two evils. But he's already way too many steps behind, and is always just a highly effective stop-gap apprentice. Pretty perfect time and place, though, finding a stop-gap "wait till Anakin is older" apprentice who happens to be the guy who is both friends with Qui-Gon Jinn and is also politically situated where he can start a Confederacy. But that's not atypical of history.

    Vader is actually a trash student. He's with Palpatine because he's resigned to a life of bitter hatred and cold rage because of his utter failure. He learns all his lessons the hard way and half the time it isn't even from Palpatine or Palpatine's twisted lesson plans - he learns them because he does everything ruthlessly and bitterly in spite of everything else and deals with the hands he's dealt and comes around to Sith ways of thinking backwards. I mean he's got "Rule through fear" down but there's a reason why he constantly murders imperial officers - he hates Palpatine and the empire and the sycophants and everything else that surrounds him. Ruling through fear only works if you leave people alive to fear you. I'm sure Palpatine is constantly conspiratorially having people killed off, but leaving room for interpretation and keeping anyone alive that might be a valuable cog in his machine. Vader doesn't see the value in much and wastes I'm sure a lot of expensive resources. He's also a blunt instrument, a figure of raw power. And he still coasts on that, even as Vader. He rarely uses his cunning, which he has plenty of if he ever cares to use it, because he just hammers everything. Go fast. Hit hard. It's hick thinking. He's really not that sophisticated a guy. I know Palpatine persistently tasked him with the occasional assassin or would-be supplanter gunning for his job and the prestige and power, and Vader won those tests, but it almost had to piss Palpatine off that he'd craft intricate plots to try to coax Vader into getting more involved in being a schemer and shadow-player and dude would just brute force through it all. Dude is totally the Harry Potter in this case. Crap student, Chosen One anyway.

    Kylo I'm not sure I can analyze as clearly. It's a toughy. Kid went real dark, and bought in hook line and sinker but it's pretty clear he never bought in all the way and got more unstable every time he went dark. He learned by proxy through Snoke, learned some classic Dark Side lessons in a four year span and had only been a Jedi trainee for a decade, but like, it's not a lot of time (even Dooku had been Dark for 8 years by the time he even revealed himself as a villain, and had been a Jedi for 80!). Plus as the son of two of the most headstrong stubborn people in the galaxy you know he was probably a terrible student. And he plays "wracked with guilt" with far more "this is actually painful" than like, Vader, who is just iced over completely and basically dead inside. Kylo's on fire inside and full of life. He sees value in the other side even though he can't see past his selfishness yet, and that's why it's so quick for him to fall into the whole The Sequel Trilogy Is Just Star Wars Romeo & Juliet plotline.

    ...

    Ranking in order of Coolness, though ...
    Vader
    Maul
    Kylo
    Dooku
    Retro315 no more. Anonymity is so 2005.
    retrowarbird.blogspot.com

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    10,073

    Default

    Vader does hint at the beginning of ROTJ that Palpatine does kill off subordinates who fail: "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am".

    However, I don't think we've ever really see Palpatine do that as much, even in the EU. I mean of course he murders Jedi, innocents etc. but I don't think we see him take any anger on his subordinates if they fail him...or he just has Vader do it. There was a scene in one draft of TPM where he force-chokes the Neimodians over the hologram ( A version I think of his first appearance, I think it was a variation of the whole "I don't want this stunted slime in my sight again!"), sort of like what Snoke did at the beginning of TLJ to Snoke, but that's about it I think.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 05-14-2020 at 10:51 AM.
    chrism227.wordpress.com Info and opinions on a variety of interests.

    https://twitter.com/chrisprtsmouth

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •