Retconned Stories That You Still Wish Were In Continuity.

[godisawesome]

Wait when was all of this retconned?

I think the general idea is that Morrison fudged the details a bit to fit his “ex-wife from hell in a fantastical divorce” idea for her; she was redefined as being a bit more obviously evil the entire time she was with Bruce, and she basically date raped him to conceive Damian in that story.

I kind of find it a little bit pointless, sense it mostly just removes some of the drama and tragedy that could be on the relationship if they’d genuinely been in love and if Talia’s darkening had happened over time.

My personal story that I’d want back is the Red Robin series; Tim’s history is vaguely back in existence, but I actually really liked that run. I know some people don’t like t, but I love it; I love the “is she an undercover cop?” twist on the Catwoman idea with Lynx and him, I really wanted to see Tim’s new HQ in the Monarch Theater, I liked Tam Fox there, and I enjoyed the conflict between his remaining genuine humility and his growing cynicism.

[Sandy Hausler]

You mean Dick if he had been a redhead?

The kid whose parent's were killed helping Batman!

[Vakanai]

The kid whose parent's were killed helping Batman!

Never read it, just know how people describe that version of Jason. The standard refrain I've heard is basically "Just like Dick". Don't know how true it is.

[Sandy Hausler]

Never read it, just know how people describe that version of Jason. The standard refrain I've heard is basically "Just like Dick". Don't know how true it is.

He was like Dick in that he and his parents were circus acrobats. The parents agreed to help Batman, but this resulted in their deaths at the hand of Killer Croc. Of course, Bruce being "responsible" for their deaths (never ask for help from civilians), felt he owed it to Jaon to take him in. Before all this, the Todds knew Dick because they worked for his old circus.

Liked him much better than the juvenile delinquent Jason Todd who followed. Who knew that the new Jason would seem like an angel compared to Damian Wayne!

[charliehustle415]

I think the general idea is that Morrison fudged the details a bit to fit his “ex-wife from hell in a fantastical divorce” idea for her; she was redefined as being a bit more obviously evil the entire time she was with Bruce, and she basically date raped him to conceive Damian in that story.

I kind of find it a little bit pointless, sense it mostly just removes some of the drama and tragedy that could be on the relationship if they’d genuinely been in love and if Talia’s darkening had happened over time.

My personal story that I’d want back is the Red Robin series; Tim’s history is vaguely back in existence, but I actually really liked that run. I know some people don’t like t, but I love it; I love the “is she an undercover cop?” twist on the Catwoman idea with Lynx and him, I really wanted to see Tim’s new HQ in the Monarch Theater, I liked Tam Fox there, and I enjoyed the conflict between his remaining genuine humility and his growing cynicism.

Hmm.. I see; I totally forgot about Red Robin what an amazing run.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It definitely was better planned, but I'd still say that's damning with faint praise. It's not hard to be better planned than the rush job of the New 52, but we still got the convoluted stuff surrounding stuff like Supergirl (which had the domino effect of impacting the Legion), Donna Troy and the Hawks, all of which are more infamously bad than a lot of the stuff from the New 52. Since that era didn't last as long before getting overhauled yet again, it didn't have the chance to compound the convoluted the way the longer lasting post-Crisis era did.

Uh, yeah, I really wouldn't say so. At least a few really good stories came out of Supergirl and the Hawks post-Crisis. Donna Troy was a mess, but Donna Troy is still a mess and you could argue she was made into more of one by the New 52.

Intentions don't matter much compared to the final result. Frankly, it was naive and short sighted of them to think something like COIE would never happen again. The people in charge then and the trends that prompted the creative decisions at the time were not going to be around forever, and they pretty much just rudely tossed out a lot of work of previous creators and made things much more difficult for new creators to use that stuff if they ever wanted to. Or even just reference it. You can't do something like that and then declare nobody else ever should. it's hypocritical to the max.

Changing stuff back doesn't always work. The longer the post-COIE era went on and built storylines, the more difficult it was to work stuff back in. By the time a lot of it came back, it was too little, too late. You can't put the cat back in the bag. Just look at the Superman franchise pre-Flashpoint. If you can't look at things too closely without them unraveling, it's not coherently put back together. It's just yet another rebooted version, of which we'd already had 3-4 by that point.

But at least by the time Flashpoint rolled around, the DCU was still a comprehensive universe where you could keep track of most of the important events that happened therein. That's because Crisis was so well-planned out. Marv Wolfman not only created a bible for the things that were supposed to remain in-canon afetrwards but for a lot of the characters post-Crisis, the Crisis was just that: an event that happened within their universe. Plus, a lot of the franchises continued on with the status quo they had pre-Crisis, with retroactive changes being revealed later on. The Green Lanterns continued on pretty much unchanged, Dick Grayson had still become Nightwing and was the leader of the New Teen Titans while Jason Todd was still Robin, Barry Allen was still dead and Wally West was taking up the mantle, etc. In other words, the impacts of events pre-Crisis were still being felt post-Crisis in a lot of cases to the point where it still seemed like the same universe in a lot of ways.

Compare that with what happened in the New 52, where it was sold literally as a brand new universe, right down to character pages claiming that certain characters made their "first appearances" in post-2011 comics. On top of that, a lot of the events that were going on pre-Flashpoint were simply halted or cut off and new storylines were rushed in order to take their place. In some cases, writers who had plans in the pipeline were completely blindsided by the reboot and forced to make last-minute changes because characters they were planning to use no longer existed or events they were drawing upon no longer happened. For example, plans for a JLI revival were swept under the rug because whoops, the JLI had never existed before in this continuity and the JLI reboot that we did get was arguably the worse for it.

The animosity between Bruce and Dick played out different pre-COIE. It didn't involve Dick being fired after being shot by the Joker, and they buried the hatchet at Donna's wedding like actual adults. Post-COIE just undid all of that.

Dude. There was so much angst pre-Crisis between Dick and Bruce.

Agree to disagree on Alfred. I think it's more interesting when he's a friend and a peer; looking at how better adjusted Bruce was pre-COIE, I can't say being raised by Alfred "World's biggest enabler" Pennyworth really resulted in anything good for him.

Yeah, well, I think it goes without saying that Alfred is undeniably more popular with his post-Crisis backstory.

I don't think the New 52 replaced it with anything better, but that doesn't mean it (or any post-crisis story) should be "safe" from every being rebooted away. Considering it only existed due to a reboot itself.

The fact that YO remains relevant and salient and is still cited as one of the best origin stories even 30+ years later is what should make it "safe" from being rebooted anytime soon.

Stuff like Kathy coming back as if Crisis never happened is still messy. Because we know the stories both with and without her were published. It's basically DC lying to us. What is so hard about just keeping stories in canon and just not referencing the stuff you don't need? Leave it alone.

Not really, since Kathy was actually referenced in stories post-Crisis anyway, so when Morrison did eventually bring her back, it wasn't completely out of the blue. Plus, it wasn't like she was stepping on the new Batwoman's toes since the new Batwoman was always introduced as Kate Kane.

yes, I know it was controversial. You'd have to be living under a rock to not be aware of that.

But you'd also have to be living under a rock to think Rebirth wasn't controversial as well. At one point, DC didn't think the pre-Flashpoint era was profitable anymore so they did the New 52. And it did really well initially, then they did Rebirth when New 52 was no longer protifable. When Rebirth wasn't sustaining itself anymore, they planned to do 5G.

Dude, Rebirth was much more critically accepted than the New 52 ever was. You'd have to be living under a rock or in extreme denial to not have heard about that. And again, 5G has been ditched (or at least reworked), seemingly because a lot of creators did have issue with it and it's intended direction. It was basically Didio's brainchild much like the New 52 was, except in this case, WB removed him because he was "creating a hostile work environment." So, I wouldn't really cite that as an example.

[Dr. Ellingham]

What are some DC stories that have long since been retconned out of canon that you wish were still in continuity?

My short answer is - "Just the good ones".

That's what matters to me at this point. Remember the good, forget the rest. As for fitting all the good stories into a decades-long, concrete history? Strikes me as extra-credit. It's the stories that matter.

[SiegePerilous02]

But at least by the time Flashpoint rolled around, the DCU was still a comprehensive universe where you could keep track of most of the important events that happened therein. That's because Crisis was so well-planned out. Marv Wolfman not only created a bible for the things that were supposed to remain in-canon afetrwards but for a lot of the characters post-Crisis, the Crisis was just that: an event that happened within their universe. Plus, a lot of the franchises continued on with the status quo they had pre-Crisis, with retroactive changes being revealed later on. The Green Lanterns continued on pretty much unchanged, Dick Grayson had still become Nightwing and was the leader of the New Teen Titans while Jason Todd was still Robin, Barry Allen was still dead and Wally West was taking up the mantle, etc. In other words, the impacts of events pre-Crisis were still being felt post-Crisis in a lot of cases to the point where it still seemed like the same universe in a lot of ways.

Compare that with what happened in the New 52, where it was sold literally as a brand new universe, right down to character pages claiming that certain characters made their "first appearances" in post-2011 comics. On top of that, a lot of the events that were going on pre-Flashpoint were simply halted or cut off and new storylines were rushed in order to take their place. In some cases, writers who had plans in the pipeline were completely blindsided by the reboot and forced to make last-minute changes because characters they were planning to use no longer existed or events they were drawing upon no longer happened. For example, plans for a JLI revival were swept under the rug because whoops, the JLI had never existed before in this continuity and the JLI reboot that we did get was arguably the worse for it.

Wolfman's bible wasn't exactly followed. I believe the History of the DCU started getting contradicted soon after it was published. Wolfman himself has even expressed annoyance with what happened with Donna Troy afterward and wishes none of the specific stuff in her case happened.

"Seemed" like the same universe in some cases, but that's still a bit of false advertising. It wasn't the same universe in a lot of the details even if some stuff was broadly the same. Excluding Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman were chucked and replaced by new versions.

It's still better planned than the New 52, but again I have to say that is damning with faint praise and that the DCU would be in a much better state if they had never established that they could **** around with it in a big way.

Dude. There was so much angst pre-Crisis between Dick and Bruce.

"Dude," read the original lead up to the Judas Contract. There was angst, but not as much as what came before and they'd largely hashed it out before Dick even became Nightwing and had a denouement at Donna's wedding. The COIE happened, and suddenly Dick was fired from the role and later we had Dixon's terrible Nightwing: Year One comic. Post-Crisis added more angst because the post-Crisis Bat-verse thrives on stupid angst the way the rest of us thrive on oxygen.

And I know it's popular, but I feel Batman is a worse character as a result. And is still a clear divide between one universe and another.

Yeah, well, I think it goes without saying that Alfred is undeniably more popular with his post-Crisis backstory.

Alfred is popular because he was cemented as a regular and iconic supporting character even before that retcon, I'm not certain his post-Crisis history specifically makes him popular.

Dude, Rebirth was much more critically accepted than the New 52 ever was. You'd have to be living under a rock or in extreme denial to not have heard about that. And again, 5G has been ditched (or at least reworked), seemingly because a lot of creators did have issue with it and it's intended direction. It was basically Didio's brainchild much like the New 52 was, except in this case, WB removed him because he was "creating a hostile work environment." So, I wouldn't really cite that as an example.

If by critically, do you mean there was less negative noise about it on the internet? Because that's all it is, noise. Raw sales numbers indicate that both did well when they started and both eventually fizzled out.

For example, we have New 52 Azzarello Wonder Woman and Rebirth Rucka Wonder Woman. Judging by places like this, you'd think both were either super beloved or reviled and frequently pitted against each other. Yet in my LCS's, they were usually always positively discussed, often by the same people, and both sold well enough. Fandom pissing contests are ultimately not as indicative of truth as we sometimes like to think.

Literally nobody is saying the New 52 was without its faults, just as no one should say Rebirth was without its faults or successes. If you see complete failure in either one, it's likely confirmation bias.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Wolfman's bible wasn't exactly followed. I believe the History of the DCU started getting contradicted soon after it was published. Wolfman himself has even expressed annoyance with what happened with Donna Troy afterward and wishes none of the specific stuff in her case happened.

"Seemed" like the same universe in some cases, but that's still a bit of false advertising. It wasn't the same universe in a lot of the details even if some stuff was broadly the same. Excluding Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman were chucked and replaced by new versions.

But, again, after Crisis, Green Lantern, Flash, the Justice League, and the Teen Titans all continued onward as if they were unaffected by the event and any retroactive changes were introduced afterward, sometimes years afterward. Compare that to the New 52, where as soon as Flashpoint was finished, it was literally like the DCU had pressed a reset button and almost all story threads from beforehand were halted and/or erased.

It's still better planned than the New 52, but again I have to say that is damning with faint praise and that the DCU would be in a much better state if they had never established that they could **** around with it in a big way.

But the point is that it was not only better but leagues better than the New 52. You can't keep retreating to the argument "oh well, they were both bad" or that they both had detrimental impacts on the DCU because, while that might be true to a certain extent, we also know that the immediate Post-Crisis DCU had some of the best runs in DC's history.

"Dude," read the original lead up to the Judas Contract. There was angst, but not as much as what came before and they'd largely hashed it out before Dick even became Nightwing and had a denouement at Donna's wedding. The COIE happened, and suddenly Dick was fired from the role and later we had Dixon's terrible Nightwing: Year One comic. Post-Crisis added more angst because the post-Crisis Bat-verse thrives on stupid angst the way the rest of us thrive on oxygen.

And I know it's popular, but I feel Batman is a worse character as a result. And is still a clear divide between one universe and another.

Dude, I have. And at the times the angst between Bruce and Dick was very much unnecessary and almost without reason pre-Crisis.

But here's the thing. You hit the nail on the head when you said it was popular. It's kind of a bedrock principle of storytelling that stories thrive on conflict, whether we're talking comics or plays or film or books. And in terms of superhero comics, that conflict almost always needs to be heightened because, well, the entire environment of the superhero world is heightened. And all that extra angst, like it or not, works for Batman and his world. That edginess is part of what makes Batman so popular.

Alfred is popular because he was cemented as a regular and iconic supporting character even before that retcon, I'm not certain his post-Crisis history specifically makes him popular.

Okay, then let me ask you, what is the most enduring image of Alfred? Or, better yet, what are the most popular Alfred moments in pop culture? It's things like Michael Caine's Alfred in the Dark Knight telling Bruce about Joker "some men just want to watch the world burn." Or maybe in Batman Begins where he tells Bruce that "we fall to pick ourselves back up." And there are other iterations of Alfred that illustrate the qualities I'm talking about but I'm going to focus on the Nolan Alfred right now because it's arguably the most popular. Now, of course, in these examples, what Alfred is saying relates to the main story but it's important to note what he's doing in these moments. He's offering his advice and his guidance because that is who he is to Bruce: the man Bruce turns to when he's lost.

It's not just that Alfred was around Batman that makes him popular. There are a lot of characters that have been around Batman that have faded into obscurity. I mean, nobody really cares about Vicki Vale appears in Batman movie, but you cannot make a Batman film without Alfred Pennyworth. And that's because it's about the role Alfred plays in relation to Bruce. He's the sage elder, Bruce's confidant, and the closest thing Bruce has to a father. That is why people love him. That is the iteration of Alfred that has caught the imagination of people to the extent of getting his own TV series. If Alfred had remained with his Golden Age characterization as the clueless butler who doesn't meet Bruce until Bruce is already an adult, then Alfred, like many others, would have fallen into obscurity instead of being the mainstay he is today.

If by critically, do you mean there was less negative noise about it on the internet? Because that's all it is, noise. Raw sales numbers indicate that both did well when they started and both eventually fizzled out.

For example, we have New 52 Azzarello Wonder Woman and Rebirth Rucka Wonder Woman. Judging by places like this, you'd think both were either super beloved or reviled and frequently pitted against each other. Yet in my LCS's, they were usually always positively discussed, often by the same people, and both sold well enough. Fandom pissing contests are ultimately not as indicative of truth as we sometimes like to think.

Yes, because anecdotes are just as valuable evidence as critical consensus. Sometimes, noise isn't just noise. Sometimes, it's indicative of a general reputation.