Retconned Stories That You Still Wish Were In Continuity.

[John Venus]

What I wish was still in continuity?!?



In my mind it is the one true origin of Batman. I really didn't care for Year One at all. It had a few moments, but I didnt' like his motivations, I didn't like his Gordon and despised Miller wiping out Batgirl.

I was exposed to this way before Year One and it's one of my favorites. I love YO but I agree about wiping out Batgirl. However, I think you can have both this and Year One. As much as I love Untold Legends, I'm not a fan of Alfred coming in long after Bruce becomes an adult and adopts Dick. Everything else can still work. I still love the scene where Gordon becomes Bruce's ally and it still remains a powerful moment. There are some ideas I've warmed up to over time as well like Dick being around when Bruce met his Rogues Gallery. I think that made their relationship much deeper and meaningful.

[superduperman]

What I wish was still in continuity?!?



In my mind it is the one true origin of Batman. I really didn't care for Year One at all. It had a few moments, but I didnt' like his motivations, I didn't like his Gordon and despised Miller wiping out Batgirl.

I first read this in eighth grade and found a dog eared copy at my LCS a few years back. The only hangup I have with it is him being Robin before Dick. That just seemed weird to me. Other than that it still kind of works today (other than him not being allowed to adopt because he was a bachelor which is the most outdated thing in this).

[phantom1592]

I was exposed to this way before Year One and it's one of my favorites. I love YO but I agree about wiping out Batgirl. However, I think you can have both this and Year One. As much as I love Untold Legends, I'm not a fan of Alfred coming in long after Bruce becomes an adult and adopts Dick..

To me it works better. I'm not a fan of Alfred of bulldozing his way through the door and Batman being incapable of kicking the guy out... but over the years I have really come to hate the idea of Alfred being there when Bruce was a kid. To have Bruce go down the road he's gone... and to adopt Dick for the sole purpose of stopping him from growing up like Bruce did... it's kind of necessary that Bruce did not HAVE a strong father figure. There should be a solid line drawn between someone who has raised you as a father figure... and someone who works for you and calls you 'master bruce'. He's just... ineffectual as a father figure. I really hate it.

Everything else can still work. I still love the scene where Gordon becomes Bruce's ally and it still remains a powerful moment. There are some ideas I've warmed up to over time as well like Dick being around when Bruce met his Rogues Gallery. I think that made their relationship much deeper and meaningful.

YES! That's one of my favorite scenes in Batman history. Really draws the line behind Batman's motivation. It's not vengence, it's not the Law.... It's Justice he's after. And it's a motive that Gordon can get behind. The most law abiding cop in gotham needs 'something' to put all his trust in a violent vigilante like they make Batman out to be. That scene just nailed it for me.

[phantom1592]

I first read this in eighth grade and found a dog eared copy at my LCS a few years back. The only hangup I have with it is him being Robin before Dick. That just seemed weird to me. Other than that it still kind of works today (other than him not being allowed to adopt because he was a bachelor which is the most outdated thing in this).

That is weird... but at the same time it's weird for him to just have that costume in the cave... OR to have designed that bright yellow thing for his kid partner. I find it a little more tolerable that he pulled something out of a closet than he designed that as is.

The original Robin costume will always have hoops that need to be jumped through and will never REALLY make sense... so i can hand wave Bruce being the first Robin

[Vakanai]

I can think of one: the fact that Year One is just the superior origin story. No offense to Snyder, but Year One is just a much more fitting origin for Batman than Zero Year. It's simple and elegant as well as gritty, realistic, and down-to-earth, which is more in line with how Batman started out: as a gritty pulp hero. Zero Year, on the other hand, is more what I'd expect of a Flash origin story where the character is more firmly rooted in sci-fi and relies too much on blockbuster-style action. It also just...tries too hard to be a "modern upgrade" that it loses a lot of that beautiful simplicity that Year One has. For example, Snyder writing it so that the "cave" is projected around Bruce in his father's study by a holographic orb during that scene with the bat is just so...unnecessary. The bat flying in through the window is classic and timeless and works for any audience without all of that window-dressing. Just let it be simple. Don't overcomplicate things.

Not to mention that Zero Year is also incredibly decompressed.

Two rebuttals here come to mind.
1. Which origin is superior is subjective opinion, not objective fact. Also which is more befitting of Batman is also subjective opinion.

2. Even if we assume you're somehow objectively right, being a superior story is not necessarily an argument to be the still official in continuity origin. On the one hand, Year One is clearly visually and undeniably set in the late 80s/early 90s and will only age Batman up the further and further we get from that very specific period of time. On the other hand, does Year One lose anything if it is no longer in continuity? Does it somehow become less important, less a classic? I don't think so.

Sometimes you need to make a small change to continuity just to update things a bit, even if it's with a story you might think isn't as good. Personally I think John's Secret Origin is the weakest of the Superman origin stories we've got in the past 20 years, yet that seems to be Clark's main current origin because it kinda works best for what DC wants for the character going forward. I think Legend of Wonder Woman is clearly the superior Wonder Woman origin for a country mile, but her inferior Year One is her current origin. So saying it's better so must be the in continuity story doesn't work.

[Vakanai]

What I wish was still in continuity?!?



In my mind it is the one true origin of Batman. I really didn't care for Year One at all. It had a few moments, but I didnt' like his motivations, I didn't like his Gordon and despised Miller wiping out Batgirl.

Thanks for reminding me to try and track this down again. Been wanting to read it, but last time I searched all I found was this weird edited version where the panels were rearranged to make room for the fact that version of the book was actually physically smaller (at least according to the Amazon reviews).

Also, Miller didn't wipe out Batgirl in Year One, that actually came much much later with that last issue of All Star Batman and Robin.

[superduperman]

Two rebuttals here come to mind.
1. Which origin is superior is subjective opinion, not objective fact. Also which is more befitting of Batman is also subjective opinion.

2. Even if we assume you're somehow objectively right, being a superior story is not necessarily an argument to be the still official in continuity origin. On the one hand, Year One is clearly visually and undeniably set in the late 80s/early 90s and will only age Batman up the further and further we get from that very specific period of time. On the other hand, does Year One lose anything if it is no longer in continuity? Does it somehow become less important, less a classic? I don't think so.

Sometimes you need to make a small change to continuity just to update things a bit, even if it's with a story you might think isn't as good. Personally I think John's Secret Origin is the weakest of the Superman origin stories we've got in the past 20 years, yet that seems to be Clark's main current origin because it kinda works best for what DC wants for the character going forward. I think Legend of Wonder Woman is clearly the superior Wonder Woman origin for a country mile, but her inferior Year One is her current origin. So saying it's better so must be the in continuity story doesn't work.

Year One is far and away my favorite Batman story. It's the first realistic superhero story I ever read. That having been said, as time goes on, it gets harder and harder to keep in continuity. Everybody smokes indoors. Gordon smokes in a hospital! There's no way this took place after 1989 at the latest. The Selina thing doesn't bother me as much as it does everyone else. But DC has spent the better part of two decades trying to find some way to explain that away. Far more people read YO than whatever obscure issue of Catwoman they did to excuse it. The Hari Krishnas at the beginning don't even exist anymore! I'd love to have it still be in canon but let's not kid ourselves. It just doesn't work anymore.

[phantom1592]

Thanks for reminding me to try and track this down again. Been wanting to read it, but last time I searched all I found was this weird edited version where the panels were rearranged to make room for the fact that version of the book was actually physically smaller (at least according to the Amazon reviews).

Ohhh don't know about that. My version is actually a pocket sized black and white collected edition. Found it at store right before Burton's Batman came out in 1989. I heard it was originally a 3 part mini series... but never read them, so don't know about the panels being moved. Now I kind of want to track down the originals even more...

Also, Miller didn't wipe out Batgirl in Year One, that actually came much much later with that last issue of All Star Batman and Robin.

Barbara should have been about 14 when Batman got started. Instead we get Gordon and his new wife and baby son and no daughter at all. Miller didn't like Robin, Batgirl or any 'batfamily' in his idea of Batman... so he actively tried to erase them. They jumped through a LOT of hoops to try to get her back in.... She wasn't his daughter, she was his niece... He may have had an affair with her mother... so maybe she WAS his daughter.. Lot of retcons to try to fix a retcon.

The fact that you say he did it again in All Star Batman and Robin is interesting. What happened there? I think i only made it to issue 2 on that series. maybe just 1.... I don't remember now.

[blunt_eastwood]

When was The New 52 retconned? What did I miss?

[Vakanai]

Year One is far and away my favorite Batman story. It's the first realistic superhero story I ever read. That having been said, as time goes on, it gets harder and harder to keep in continuity. Everybody smokes indoors. Gordon smokes in a hospital! There's no way this took place after 1989 at the latest. The Selina thing doesn't bother me as much as it does everyone else. But DC has spent the better part of two decades trying to find some way to explain that away. Far more people read YO than whatever obscure issue of Catwoman they did to excuse it. The Hari Krishnas at the beginning don't even exist anymore! I'd love to have it still be in canon but let's not kid ourselves. It just doesn't work anymore.

Exactly. It's like sticking to Magneto's Holocaust survivor origin - eventually all the real world survivors will sadly be dead of old age and it won't make sense without putting him on ice like Captain America. Sometimes stories just have to be aged out of continuity.

Ohhh don't know about that. My version is actually a pocket sized black and white collected edition. Found it at store right before Burton's Batman came out in 1989. I heard it was originally a 3 part mini series... but never read them, so don't know about the panels being moved. Now I kind of want to track down the originals even more...

I'm obviously no expert, but that's probably the edition they were talking about having the panels moved around to fit. Don't know if that's true, but it kept me from making the purchase in hopes it'll be reprinted in a collection with the panels in place like the original mini, just in case.
But I might get impatient and nab a used pocket edition soon anyways...

Also not being in color like the original mini didn't help the case. Is it really not reprinted anywhere?

Barbara should have been about 14 when Batman got started. Instead we get Gordon and his new wife and baby son and no daughter at all. Miller didn't like Robin, Batgirl or any 'batfamily' in his idea of Batman... so he actively tried to erase them. They jumped through a LOT of hoops to try to get her back in.... She wasn't his daughter, she was his niece... He may have had an affair with her mother... so maybe she WAS his daughter.. Lot of retcons to try to fix a retcon.

The fact that you say he did it again in All Star Batman and Robin is interesting. What happened there? I think i only made it to issue 2 on that series. maybe just 1.... I don't remember now.

Maybe in Year One they figured Barbara would be Gordon's niece instead of his daughter? Didn't the Adam West series do it that way? Could've been a not entirely planned out continuity thing, I don't know.

As for ASBAR, that's the one issue I didn't read, and after hearing about it I don't plan to. Apparently she got beat up real bad. Just...ugh.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Two rebuttals here come to mind.
1. Which origin is superior is subjective opinion, not objective fact. Also which is more befitting of Batman is also subjective opinion.

2. Even if we assume you're somehow objectively right, being a superior story is not necessarily an argument to be the still official in continuity origin. On the one hand, Year One is clearly visually and undeniably set in the late 80s/early 90s and will only age Batman up the further and further we get from that very specific period of time. On the other hand, does Year One lose anything if it is no longer in continuity? Does it somehow become less important, less a classic? I don't think so.

I can concede that its opinion. We're all talking about opinions. But, again, assuming I was correct and it is the superior origin story, then that's reason enough. And, dude, seriously? Year One takes place in whatever year DC says it takes place. There are so many stories from both DC and Marvel that are undeniably set in the year they were originally published. That doesn't stop them from being readable in the present day. They are still in canon and those anachronisms are just ignored. Indoor smoking is not a reason to knock what is basically one of the best Batman stories ever told out of continuity.

Sometimes you need to make a small change to continuity just to update things a bit, even if it's with a story you might think isn't as good. Personally I think John's Secret Origin is the weakest of the Superman origin stories we've got in the past 20 years, yet that seems to be Clark's main current origin because it kinda works best for what DC wants for the character going forward. I think Legend of Wonder Woman is clearly the superior Wonder Woman origin for a country mile, but her inferior Year One is her current origin. So saying it's better so must be the in continuity story doesn't work.

But that's the thing though: Year One isn't really in need of an update. It's still regarded as one of the best comic book stories of all time. And Superman is a completely different situation for many reasons. For one, Secret Origin was actually bringing back a lot of the things from Silver Age Superman lore that Crisis on Infinite Earths (and then later the New 52) erased. Another thing is that, actually, many people would probably tell you that Superman and Wonder Woman have suffered as a result of multiple reboots and constant retooling of their continuity. Any Superman or Wonder Woman fan would probably tell you that that was the case. The most successful franchises in DC's (and Marvel's) library are those ones that have avoided being frequently rebooted: Batman, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, etc. That's not a coincidence.

[batnbreakfast]

Year One is far and away my favorite Batman story. It's the first realistic superhero story I ever read. That having been said, as time goes on, it gets harder and harder to keep in continuity. Everybody smokes indoors. Gordon smokes in a hospital! There's no way this took place after 1989 at the latest. The Selina thing doesn't bother me as much as it does everyone else. But DC has spent the better part of two decades trying to find some way to explain that away. Far more people read YO than whatever obscure issue of Catwoman they did to excuse it. The Hari Krishnas at the beginning don't even exist anymore! I'd love to have it still be in canon but let's not kid ourselves. It just doesn't work anymore.

Its part of our reality and she overcomes it. Its also done in a tasteful way. She doesn't appear weak and looks in control.

[phantom1592]

Maybe in Year One they figured Barbara would be Gordon's niece instead of his daughter? Didn't the Adam West series do it that way? Could've been a not entirely planned out continuity thing, I don't know.

Nope. She had always been his daughter. And the Adam West show was pretty much her beginning. There had been some debate about whether they included her in the show to promote the comic or if she showed up in comics to promote the show... but her origin was pretty tightly bound in that 1967 'area'. But she was always 'the commissioner's daughter'.

I'm also not sure when it happened.... but it seems like somewhere Gordon got deaged. Even in the 90's he had solid white hair and they even had him retire once... now he just seems... younger. Darker hair, Not even counting when they decided that HE was the only one who should be the new Batman... I don't think that was a Year One issue, but i'm sure it didn't help. Gordon seemed pretty young and spry in that story.

[blunt_eastwood]

I don't mean the sound ignorant, but it was my understanding that The New 52 was still the main continuity with stuff added to it via Rebirth. Was it completely discarded? I'm struggling with keeping up with everything with DC these days.

[Sacred Knight]

That's how it was presented in the initiative's very earliest days. When the current Superman was still the pre-FP Superman legitimately living on an Earth not his own and taking over for the native Superman who died. But when the Superman Reborn storyline quasi-merged things to the point that the Rebirth Superman was legitimately from the main Earth and the one and only Superman ever on it again, it signaled a largely change where the main Earth began acting far more like the opposite of the original statement, i.e. the pre-FP Earth with very few New 52 things peppered in where they could fit. That tends to be where we're at today. Things have ebbed to the point where its a real shortlist of New 52 stuff that remains at all.