Is The MCU The Greatest Franchise Of All Time?

[Kieran_Frost]

A bit too conspiracy theory-ish for me. But your entitled to your opinion. I'm not gonna pretend like Disney/Marvel is some version of Movies Without Borders who are making films out of the goodness of their hearts. But you can make art (whoops, sorry!) that is both critically and commercially successful and culturally resonant. Choosing February is just savvy marketing, the same way you pick Valentine's Day for a rom-com or Christmas for Home Alone.

Ugh, re-reading my last few posts, you're right it does sound very, VERY "conspiracy theory" and that is not my intent. Apologies. Apologies everyone! I think what I've failed to convey is I don't believe Disney is that supportive of minorities; so giving them kudos for Black Panther's success just feels... incorrect. Maybe I'm wrong, but I base my thoughts on actions, rather than what is said or spouted. I don't believe Disney would put "reverence for Black History Month" above profit. I don't see any evidence they put anything above profit, which is why they won't include LGBT+ characters. It will effect their international markets, and money trumps morality. I don't believe Ava DuVernay dropped out of directing BP because she was bathed in the supportive warmth of a company who was overflowing for reverence to Black History Month. These things just don't add up. And yes I see the arguement for "but it's Black History Month"... if it wasn't a company that has shown, time and again, to have their eyes fixated on the international market. It maybe Black History Month in America, but in a lot of the rest of the world, it's not a smart time to release (what is) a summer blockbuster.

It's not meant to be conspiracy theory, it's really not. Apologies if it's sounding like that. But do any of these thoughts make any kind of sense, in terms of "not adding up"? Or am I just really flooded in wacky juice on this one? And if so, I'll bow out gracefully, as I'm clearly barking up the wrong tree.

Also Despite being about Wakanda the central theme of the story of Black panther is the African American experience and lack of cultural identity and heritage. It very much is relevant to America more so then any other country.

In terms of Michael B Jordan's character, agreed.

Then you bring up movies like the Butler...really?

I think you missed the point about why I cited the Butler.

And Disney is a small company? I'm gonna head out.

I find it hard to believe you genuinely thought I was under the impression Disney was a small company. I didn't put (sarcasm) after my "Disney is a small company" comment because I assumed it was so painfully obvious it was sarcasm. It would be like saying "I can't imagine Meryl Streep ever won any awards for her work."

[Steel Inquisitor]

Ugh, re-reading my last few posts, you're right it does sound very, VERY "conspiracy theory" and that is not my intent. Apologies. Apologies everyone! I think what I've failed to convey is I don't believe Disney is that supportive of minorities; so giving them kudos for Black Panther's success just feels... incorrect. Maybe I'm wrong, but I base my thoughts on actions, rather than what is said or spouted.

Actions being what? I agree Disney and marvel need to do more behind and in front of the camera for marginalised groups but that can be true and Black Panther being a cultural milestone for the Black community. It was billion dollar commercial and critical hit, it was celebrated by the Black community for doing things most companies don't. Blade was a pioneering film at its development but it wasn't as focused on Black culture or employed voices from that community as much behind or in front of the camera.

I don't believe Disney would put "reverence for Black History Month" above profit. I don't see any evidence they put anything above profit, which is why they won't include LGBT+ characters. It will effect their international markets, and money trumps morality. I don't believe Ava DuVernay dropped out of directing BP because she was bathed in the supportive warmth of a company who was overflowing for reverence to Black History Month. These things just don't add up. And yes I see the arguement for "but it's Black History Month"... if it wasn't a company that has shown, time and again, to have their eyes fixated on the international market. It maybe Black History Month in America, but in a lot of the rest of the world, it's not a smart time to release (what is) a summer blockbuster.

I agree, but it was still progress. Had Black Panther been an indy production that no-one saw it might not have been the hit that was, and the film getting that exposure was a victory in itself IMO. Directors fallout with companies all the time, and it's not like they didn't get an indy darling and a voice from the African-American community with the director they got. Ryan Coogler's been a promising rising star on the indy circuit since he did Fruitville Station.

[Pinsir]

I really dislike the focus on the "domestic" box office when it should be termed the USA box office. America is not the centre of the world and China is not the whole locus of the "International" box office. If a movie holds the number 1 spot for 6 weeks in 30 countries then yeah it will likely have made a ton of money AND had a cultural impact. As far as I can tell, this thread isn't about which is the greatest franchise in America. This seems to be an argument that if the MCU makes a whole bunch of money in a whole bunch of non-USA countries that it doesn't really matter because only USA matters.

Also, (and I don't mean this to sound dismissive) but calculating ticket prices and populations and cinema runs and box office gross is simply a way of people saying "the numbers don't lie." I really, really dislike that claim. Numbers can be inaccurate all the time. I think it was Powerboy who said it’s not really useful to compare films across generations to say which is greater, and I agree with that. Certain films made a stack of money in a certain time period - I'm happy to leave it at that.

I'm not really the one that fetishizes these numbers though, I mean when Martin Scorsese criticized the MCU you had people here say he was jealous of the MCU's box office total. You can't even offer a tepid criticism of the MCU without someone mentioning the box office, implying a high box office makes a film good.

I fully agree that comparing films from different decades, but that is the question the OP is positing. So saying that the math isn't ever going to be perfect is just an attempt to sort of end the debate, in particular end the debate in the MCU's favour.

Also, I'm not saying the American box office is the only box office that matters, however this is an English board and most posters here are going to be part of the 'domestic' market (Which includes Canada, so you just participated in an act of Canadian erasure ). I can't really speak for non-English countries and how the MCU is received there, though in a lot of countries (France, Germany, Japan) other Disney releases (Frozen II, Lion King) had higher viewership in 2019.

[sammy_hansen]

I'm not really the one that fetishizes these numbers though, I mean when Martin Scorsese criticized the MCU you had people here say he was jealous of the MCU's box office total. You can't even offer a tepid criticism of the MCU without someone mentioning the box office, implying a high box office makes a film good.

I fully agree that comparing films from different decades, but that is the question the OP is positing. So saying that the math isn't ever going to be perfect is just an attempt to sort of end the debate, in particular end the debate in the MCU's favour.

Also, I'm not saying the American box office is the only box office that matters, however this is an English board and most posters here are going to be part of the 'domestic' market (Which includes Canada, so you just participated in an act of Canadian erasure ). I can't really speak for non-English countries and how the MCU is received there, though in a lot of countries (France, Germany, Japan) other Disney releases (Frozen II, Lion King) had higher viewership in 2019.

Yeah that whole Scorcese vs MCU was not great for anyone, and the reverence for box office numbers is, really, a bit silly. It’s not a marker of quality, but it is a marker of viewership and appeal.

I wasn’t saying people can’t compare films from different times, just that comparing box office from different times is kinda pointless. I compared MCU, Star Wars and Bond. And I chose Star Wars.

I didn’t know Canada was part of the domestic box office - I would’ve thought domestic meant just one country, so excuse my ignorance!

[WebLurker]

Yeah that whole Scorcese vs MCU was not great for anyone, and the reverence for box office numbers is, really, a bit silly. It’s not a marker of quality, but it is a marker of viewership and appeal.

Can we please not resurrect the Scorcese thing? Let it stay dead!

[Valentis]

I don't think there is anything wrong with that, high fantasy is not for everyone. And the LOTR is... the grandfather of high fantasy. It's the one! But it's a genre you don't feel particularly enamored with, there's nothing wrong with that. I, for example, have no affinity to sport. I don't care, I don't feel that competitive streak. So very, VERY few sports movies interest me (and none of them have made it into my "Top 100 Greatest Films"). And that's okay. We must bring personal opinion to our evaluations, or we're being dishonest with our tastes.


Agreed to all of this; the specialness is the connectivity. The feeling of a shared universe. But there is no depth. (some) X-men films did a great job of using the mutant metaphor to parallel LGBT+ people in real life. It added a nuance and commentary I've not seen in any of the MCU films (even if they are better films overall, in terms of technicality). I want a film to say something. I love entertainment, there is definitely a place for that in cinema... but when entertainment ALSO makes me feel things, makes a statement, beautifully conveys an idea and a through thought... damn... it's the best. It's the peak!

The downside of comic books on screen is you get the sense of limitations that does not hinder other films. I prefer the technicals in those other films you mentioned. MCU technicity lacks practicality and normality. The world of MCU does not have much realism to it, the others films have a substantial look and feel to it that creates a convincing physical universe which strengthens their extra layered story telling beyond the status quo. A large part of that is the technicality that reminds you of semi-indie films , in spite of their constrained budget could still have incredible VFX , refined cinematography and good make up. MCU technicality has more to do with Disney/Marvel’s mass external commerciality beyond the film not any artistry.

Marvel/Disney heavily promoted Black Panther before its release. I would argue it did as well as it did because it was released during Black history month. Marvel/Disney spent millions promoting it like an event and releasing it that month was a pretty historic moment.It was marketed as a cultural event and it lined up with a cultural month in the lives of African-Americans.

A lot of African-Americans that went to see it probably wouldn't have if it was marketed as just another blockbuster.

It wasnt "pushed" out at all. Marvel/Disney knew exactly what they were doing and it worked out almost perfectly for them.

Blade is about a half breed vampire hunter who just happens to be black. Being black didn’t make up his entire identity like it was done in the marketing for the Black Panther. There are zero heroes that are white who are centred around their whiteness as their sole defining trait. It’s rather their source material where it makes most sense not to be non-white though there nothing quite as insupportable as someone acting like Black Panther is the first black led Marvel superhero film even if being black was not the most crucial aspect of the blade films.

[Username taken]

The downside of comic books on screen is you get the sense of limitations that does not hinder other films. I prefer the technicals in those other films you mentioned. MCU technicity lacks practicality and normality. The world of MCU does not have much realism to it, the others films have a substantial look and feel to it that creates a convincing physical universe which strengthens their extra layered story telling beyond the status quo. A large part of that is the technicality that reminds you of semi-indie films , in spite of their constrained budget could still have incredible VFX , refined cinematography and good make up. MCU technicality has more to do with Disney/Marvel’s mass external commerciality beyond the film not any artistry.






Blade is about a half breed vampire hunter who just happens to be black. Being black didn’t make up his entire identity like it was done in the marketing for the Black Panther. There are zero heroes that are white who are centred around their whiteness as their sole defining trait. It’s rather their source material where it makes most sense not to be non-white though there nothing quite as insupportable as someone acting like Black Panther is the first black led Marvel superhero film even if being black was not the most crucial aspect of the blade films.

Being a black African is part of BP's identity though.

It can't be separated from the character.

[Elmo]

in terms of scale and the expanse of the universe and brand itself, it is for sure unparalleled.

the quality of the films however, in my opinion, is far from great, despite some epic spectacles. nothing like the Marvel I grew up with. but hey, at least kids can get to know these characters. I have many issues with the MCU but a lot of it comes down to me just personally not really enjoying most big studio movies in general.

[luprki]

Also Despite being about Wakanda the central theme of the story of Black panther is the African American experience and lack of cultural identity and heritage. It very much is relevant to America more so then any other country.

As an African American, I can say this statement is ridiculous and kinda offensive.

A lot of African-Americans that went to see it probably wouldn't have if it was marketed as just another blockbuster.

Not true

[John Venus]

The folks trying to compete with the MCU can't even get to a phase 1 while the MCU is on phase 4.

The MCU is it's own entity combining elements of blockbuster movies, television writing and comic book shared universe concepts. IW/Endgame were simultaneously a blockbuster movie, a line wide crossover event and the biggest season finale of all time. It's the modern day Star Wars/Star Trek and it will be a long time before anybody can match up to it's consistency and success.

[shades of eternity]

It might have it's faults, but it managed to do many things that would be considered impossible.

1. Iron man was turned from just some b stringer to the iconic character of the franchise.

2. Captain America - the first avenger made me patriotic and I'm not even american.

3. Josh Whedon did the impossible amongst impossible and pulled off a crossover that made pretty much everybody drip with envy.

4. Guardians of the Galaxy did Star Wars better then Star Wars and made me a fan of a certain raccoon.

5. The winter soldier gave squeaky clean cap a fantastic story arc:

6. They managed to make you root for ant man!

7. Civil war is how you rewrite a really crappy crossover in the comics.

8. Despite the really dumb explanation, they managed to really sell Thanos and gave him the big win.

9. Black Panther proved something that we never saw before: a black superhero blockbuster.

10. Anybody ever believe the avengers would be the flagship of the marvel universe before the mcu?

So yeah, despite my other complaints it's really hard to argue otherwise.

[SpiderClops]

MCU once made me feel sad when a flying ant died. A flying ant.

I believe that requires talent.

Speaking of Ant-Man, when was the last time Hollywood made a successful shrinking movie anyway?

[Midvillian1322]

MCU once made me feel sad when a flying ant died. A flying ant.

I believe that requires talent.

Speaking of Ant-Man, when was the last time Hollywood made a successful shrinking movie anyway?

R.I.P Ant-Thony, never forgotten... lol

[Midvillian1322]

As an African American, I can say this statement is ridiculous and kinda offensive.




Not true

lol The idea that you think you speak for African Americans , despite your contrary opinion on most things is offensive . the reaction to the movie by African Americans speaks for itself

[Valentis]

in terms of scale and the expanse of the universe and brand itself, it is for sure unparalleled.

the quality of the films however, in my opinion, is far from great, despite some epic spectacles. nothing like the Marvel I grew up with.

The big studios movies lack a lot of depth. It’s about the epic spectacles. MCU does this better than any other franchise. Its nothing like the marvel I grew up with either. The marvel I grew up with were semi-indie films. They had more driven artistry and less big studio takes. Every MCU movie is the same. It’s unusual when they have different writers, technicians and directors working on each movie, it hurts the overall quality.

but hey, at least kids can get to know these characters. I have many issues with the MCU but a lot of it comes down to me just personally not really enjoying most big studio movies in general.

Although you can appreciate that the movies are introducing kids to the characters, on the darker side, MCU is the one movie franchise Kids can easily grow out off. Their movies are popcorn entertainment but you need more than popcorn entertainment to fill your curiosity about movies as you get older.

Being a black African is part of BP's identity though.

It can't be separated from the character.

Yes, I can see that. It doesn’t take anything from Blade. Being Black did not have to be part of his identity, Blade is regarded as one of the few first African American characters.
Getting that out of the way, Black Panther made a lot of money. All of that money would not have come from African American audiences alone even if they saw the movie 10 times. Many people that saw Black Panther were not black.