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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Default Batman literally has no answer for Wonderwoman or Flash

    To me the part of the Tower of Babel story that made the least sense was how Batman’s contingencies dealt with Diana and Wally West. Unlike Superman and Martian Manhunter who have clearcut weaknesses that Bruce has the resources and knowledge to exploit, Wonderwoman, Flash don’t have kryptonite or fire equivalents. Green lantern for all his powers, is still just a guy with a cool weapon, Shazam’s alter ego is a kid. To me WW and the Flash are the two superheroes without easily exploitable weaknesses. So the writer had to resort to some hand waving.

  2. #2
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    I thought Martian Manhunter escaped Batman's trap all by himself? Or am I remembering it wrong?

    And in Forever Evil he didn't have an answer for the Crime Syndicate.

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Well now for Flash all Batman needs to do is somehow access the still force, but that may require kidnapping a baby(read Justice League if you don’t know what I’m talking about).
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    To me the part of the Tower of Babel story that made the least sense was how Batman’s contingencies dealt with Diana and Wally West. Unlike Superman and Martian Manhunter who have clearcut weaknesses that Bruce has the resources and knowledge to exploit, Wonderwoman, Flash don’t have kryptonite or fire equivalents. Green lantern for all his powers, is still just a guy with a cool weapon, Shazam’s alter ego is a kid. To me WW and the Flash are the two superheroes without easily exploitable weaknesses. So the writer had to resort to some hand waving.
    Waid himself has even said the contrivance for Wally was a bit of a long ball. The idea that Wally would "instinctively vibrate" through a bullet that hit him is kind of insane because, at the time, Wally phasing through something made it explode, quite lethally, and Wally never really vibrated instinctively in the first place because it was the Super Speed power he was worst at.

    It's a bit of a story of Waid writing himself into a corner years prior. All the Flash absurdities took place during his own run and he ends up having to deal with the incongruity in his own JL.

    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    Well now for Flash all Batman needs to do is somehow access the still force, but that may require kidnapping a baby(read Justice League if you don’t know what I’m talking about).
    The Still Force isn't really a counter to the Speed Force. If Turtle is any inclination, the Speed Force is the only thing capable of beating someone wielding those powers because it literally freezes time for everyone but Speed Force users. It's like saying a bullet is a counter to someone who has just enough durability to survive getting shot. The bullet still works on everyone else even better!
    Last edited by Dred; 04-27-2020 at 07:51 PM.

  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    I thought the still force caused Barry to slow down? I’d have to go back and check though.
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  6. #6
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    If the Flash went evil Batman wouldn’t be able to do ****, no one would. The timeline would be utterly screwed before anyone could do anything just like what happened with Thawne.

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    It's been a bit since i read any of this too, but if I remember right the still force influences time the way the speed force influences space. Opposing forces but two sides of the same coin. And time starts to bend in weird ways when you get to light speed right? So if Flash can accelerate to that speed, he can bend Turtle's aura and step out of sync with time enough to move.

    It's like driving with the emergency brake on. You *can* do it, but you're gonna burn a lot more gas, go a lot slower, and put some serious strain on your car.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    If the Flash went evil Batman wouldn’t be able to do ****, no one would. The timeline would be utterly screwed before anyone could do anything just like what happened with Thawne.
    That's actually a Booster Gold story I really want to see. A evil Flash from somewhere in the multiverse screws with history and Booster's the only guy who knows. How the f**k does Booster Gold take down a evil Flash? I want to read it and find out!

    I do think Batman could have a semi-viable strategy against a Flash, if Bruce was lucky. Flashes are far more vulnerable standing still. Even if we run with the idea of a Flash feeling the initial impact of a bullet and going insubstantial, we've seen energy fields that screw with this ability that Bruce could get his hands on without *too* much trouble. So a good sniping position and a trap laid ahead of time, and Bruce has a very minor chance of pulling it off. I know, it's the stupid "prep time" argument, but I do think there's *a* chance of it working and I don't think it relies too heavily on the Batgod.

    Assuming the evil Flash in question doesn't just immediately run to the Cave and kill Bruce on the spot. Which is what I'd do. Even setting the ridiculous extreme end of "prep time" aside, the only way Bruce has a hope against the League is if he can prepare for it. If you catch him on a regular night, he doesn't stand a chance in hell against any of them.

    Diana though....yea I don't think Bruce is capable of anything that could reasonably stop her if she were serious. That woman is scary capable. I honestly think she's the most dangerous hero in DC, when her head is in the game.

    For that matter, I don't think Bruce has much of a hope against Clark either, if popularity didn't enter into it. Bruce's only advantage is kryptonite, and Clark has dealt with that his entire career. Bruce might make it a real crappy experience, but it hasn't been enough of an advantage for Lex and I don't see Bruce having much more success.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  9. #9
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    I thought Martian Manhunter escaped Batman's trap all by himself? Or am I remembering it wrong?

    And in Forever Evil he didn't have an answer for the Crime Syndicate.
    I remember in Forever Evil when he and Catwoman are getting ready to fight the Crime Syndicate Batman takes her to the Batcave where he has these cases with his contingencies in place to take care of the League.

    I forget what he had for Flash but they made it clear he didn't have one for Wonder Woman.

  10. #10
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    He can get Centaur's blood. No biggie.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I remember in Forever Evil when he and Catwoman are getting ready to fight the Crime Syndicate Batman takes her to the Batcave where he has these cases with his contingencies in place to take care of the League.

    I forget what he had for Flash but they made it clear he didn't have one for Wonder Woman.
    he used a futuristic lightning rod for Flash.

  12. #12
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Waid himself has even said the contrivance for Wally was a bit of a long ball. The idea that Wally would "instinctively vibrate" through a bullet that hit him is kind of insane because, at the time, Wally phasing through something made it explode, quite lethally, and Wally never really vibrated instinctively in the first place because it was the Super Speed power he was worst at.

    It's a bit of a story of Waid writing himself into a corner years prior. All the Flash absurdities took place during his own run and he ends up having to deal with the incongruity in his own JL.



    The Still Force isn't really a counter to the Speed Force. If Turtle is any inclination, the Speed Force is the only thing capable of beating someone wielding those powers because it literally freezes time for everyone but Speed Force users. It's like saying a bullet is a counter to someone who has just enough durability to survive getting shot. The bullet still works on everyone else even better!
    Actually, William Messner-Loebs wrote a story that answered how difficult it is to shoot Wally.
    In #30, a shooter takes a shot at Wally while he's watching the movie. He immediately speeds up at the first touch of the bullet, easily getting out of harms way. No need to vibrate.
    All this, a good 5 years before the Speed Force was introduced and Wally got a serious power up.

    I remember the Wizard JLA Special that came out eons ago, and even Grant Morrison admitted that he was hard pressed to come up with a scenario where Bats came out on top.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
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  13. #13
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Regarding Green Lantern, if memory serves (a dicey proposition in my advance years), Bruce came up with some sort of McGuffin that disrupted the synapses to Kyle's brain, leaving him unable to use the ring. Would that trick have worked with a more experienced Lantern like Hal or John? Who knows.
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  14. #14
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Regarding Green Lantern, if memory serves (a dicey proposition in my advance years), Bruce came up with some sort of McGuffin that disrupted the synapses to Kyle's brain, leaving him unable to use the ring. Would that trick have worked with a more experienced Lantern like Hal or John? Who knows.
    Wasn't that what Prometheus did?


    As for WW... its black mercy. She gets exposed to something like black mercy a simulation of her fighting forever or some such. That's totally what's required because once exposed to a "Forever War" be it
    a "ragnarok" scenario or some apocalypse or inexhaustible foe or force... she won't think twice and won't question it. . .

    Most likely you just beat her with help getting it on her.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 04-28-2020 at 03:08 AM.
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  15. #15
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Wasn't that what Prometheus did?


    As for WW... its black mercy. She gets exposed to something like black mercy a simulation of her fighting forever or some such. That's totally what's required because once exposed to a "Forever War" be it
    a "ragnarok" scenario or some apocalypse or inexhaustible foe or force... she won't think twice and won't question it. . .

    Most likely you just beat her with help getting it on her.
    Yeah! Good luck with that. She has dealt with madness and held black mercy with her bear hand. Something batman or robin can't do. Other than centaur's blood i don't see anything that can stop be used by batman to beat wonder woman. And that would be lethal. Batman woule have to kill her to stop her. He has nothing to stop her.

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