Batman literally has no answer for Wonderwoman or Flash

[JackDaw]

The exact point here is that he doesn't. The entire point is that Batman does not need to **** on other heroes to make himself come out as superior to them on a yearly basis. The ancillary points is that when he does this it is always some absurd contrivance made up out of thin air that no other hero ever gets the benefit of. Only Batman gets these moments. I've never seen Flash take down the entire Justice League even though it wouldn't even be that hard to write. I've seen Batman school every member of the JL several times over, both as a team and individually.

Personally, I find large majority of hero v hero stories are near dross (always exceptions of course)...so I avoid them.

Of course, Batman gets a load of unlikely wins (effectively I’ve said that earlier in the thread)...he moves more merchandise so DC writers give him favourable treatment. A fair amount of DC (and Marvel) editing/ writing is about protecting main brands, as opposed to telling most logical story.

That manifestly doesn’t mean that it’s impossible (or even difficult) to write a story about how he gets a legitimate win. Just that DC churns out a good dollop of lazy writing

What baffles me is that if he used known allies to get a win, or high tech he bought (or obtained by other means) rather than invented...that somehow it would not count. In my eyes it would...if he was shown as the main architect of the win.

He is not going to beat Wonder Woman or Flash without using all available resources.

Flash beating Batman would be most boring story of all time. If ever Flash wants to do it, he has won a micro-second later.

[Dred]

Its funny how people often complain about Batman getting the push because other characters are written badly or not up to their standard but when Bruce uses his brain which is his best ability and asset to source technology and resources to fight superhumans its not "fair" because he isn't using his own tech

Frankly Hawkman is still a toxic mess of a character even before Bruce discovered how useful nth metal was
Does Bruce learning how to do something from ray palmer make me think Ray is cooler? No
Does Bruce learning some esoteric magic from zatanna for a one time use make her seem amazing? No

Not sure why people have a problem with that stuff
You want Batman to be a part of the DCU not be separate and exist in his own bubble

I want Batman to not use the rest of the DCU as a stepping stone to inflate his already company leading popularity and exposure.

[JackDaw]

I want Batman to not use the rest of the DCU as a stepping stone to inflate his already company leading popularity and exposure.

Batman’s a fictional character, he has no say in how he’s written or edited!

And to be fair, I suspect revenues brought in by Batman films, merchandising, comic sales, guest appearances, etc at least to some extent subsidise the publication of many less successful characters.

[Dred]

Personally, I find large majority of hero v hero stories are near dross (always exceptions of course)...so I avoid them.

Of course, Batman gets a load of unlikely wins (effectively I’ve said that earlier in the thread)...he moves more merchandise so DC writers give him favourable treatment. A fair amount of DC (and Marvel) editing/ writing is about protecting main brands, as opposed to telling most logical story.

That manifestly doesn’t mean that it’s impossible (or even difficult) to write a story about how he gets a legitimate win. Just that DC churns out a good dollop of lazy writing

What baffles me is that if he used known allies to get a win, or high tech he bought (or obtained by other means) rather than invented...that somehow it would not count. In my eyes it would...if he was shown as the main architect of the win.

He is not going to beat Wonder Woman or Flash without using all available resources.

Flash beating Batman would be most boring story of all time. If ever Flash wants to do it, he has won a micro-second later.

Batman does not need to beat up other characters to sell merchandise and comics. These are mutually exclusive things.

He explicitly and easily beat both Wonder Woman and Flash without using all available resources. It was easy for him. Multiple times, even.

It's not a struggle for Batman to beat The Flash. Last time he just sprayed some goop on the ground and Flash slipped and knocked himself out. It was TRIVIAL. Batman not only beats these characters, he does so regularly and often easily. Because they're treated as second rate idiots and losers when he's around.

And yes, Flash beating anyone is easy to write. But no one ever writes stories about that because Flash isn't super popular with a rabid fanbase that demands he beat up every other superhero. Which is hilarious given how Flash is the king of online forum battle threads. But The Flash is just one example. It applies to everyone. I just default to Flash because he's the next step down below the trinity.

Batman’s a fictional character, he has no say in how he’s written or edited!

And to be fair, I suspect revenues brought in by Batman films, merchandising, comic sales, guest appearances, etc at least to some extent subsidise the publication of many less successful characters.

This is the most self fulfilling prophecy BS I've ever heard. Yes, continue shitting on other characters because Batman is more popular, so Batman can continue to get more popular and the other characters can continue to get less popular.

Batman doesn't need the help. This is like the comics version of trickle down economics. Batman doesn't "subsidize" ****. And even if he did that wouldn't justify other characters being deliberately treated as second rate because he happens to exist in the same continuity.

[Ascended]

And to be fair, I suspect revenues brought in by Batman films, merchandising, comic sales, guest appearances, etc at least to some extent subsidise the publication of many less successful characters.

Sure. But my income provides for my kids, who don't make as much money as I do (none, since they're still young), that doesn't mean I get to abuse them and it's okay.

Batman's popularity is the reason he ends up the winner of these contests so often. Lazy writing is what makes it awful instead of intriguing.

[JackDaw]

Sure. But my income provides for my kids, who don't make as much money as I do (none, since they're still young), that doesn't mean I get to abuse them and it's okay.

Batman's popularity is the reason he ends up the winner of these contests so often. Lazy writing is what makes it awful instead of intriguing.

They are fictional characters, no one is “getting abused” so I don’t feel the analogy is convincing.

To a large extent the writers hands are tied by commercial need to feature Batman in stories where his claimed power set (very competent “normal” human) just doesn’t cut the mustard.

I agree there’s oodles of lazy writing in DC . My own solution for that is to only follow writers I like’ preferably on C list characters where editorial mandates are less likely to put writers in a straight jacket.

[Alan2099]

Here's how it SHOULD work.

Batman is more popular than 'Mazing man. So Batman teams up with 'Mazing Man, and makes 'Mazing Man look good. He talks about how 'Mazing Man is a great guy and 'Mazing man is able to help Batman do something that Bats can't accomplish on his own.

That way you're using Batman's popularity to help prop up another less popular hero, then maybe people will check out the hero and like him.

The way DC does it however is that Batman shows up, punches 'Mazing man in the face and calls him a dork. It accomplishes nothing. Batman gets nothing out of this because people already think he's awesome and 'Mazing man's popularity takes another hit.

[JackDaw]

Here's how it SHOULD work.

Batman is more popular than 'Mazing man. So Batman teams up with 'Mazing Man, and makes 'Mazing Man look good. He talks about how 'Mazing Man is a great guy and 'Mazing man is able to help Batman do something that Bats can't accomplish on his own.

That way you're using Batman's popularity to help prop up another less popular hero, then maybe people will check out the hero and like him.

The way DC does it however is that Batman shows up, punches 'Mazing man in the face and calls him a dork. It accomplishes nothing. Batman gets nothing out of this because people already think he's awesome and 'Mazing man's popularity takes another hit.

Yes.

The way it worked for decade after decade in The Brave and the Bold, until DC “improved” things.

[The tall man]

Here's how it SHOULD work.

Batman is more popular than 'Mazing man. So Batman teams up with 'Mazing Man, and makes 'Mazing Man look good. He talks about how 'Mazing Man is a great guy and 'Mazing man is able to help Batman do something that Bats can't accomplish on his own.

That way you're using Batman's popularity to help prop up another less popular hero, then maybe people will check out the hero and like him.

The way DC does it however is that Batman shows up, punches 'Mazing man in the face and calls him a dork. It accomplishes nothing. Batman gets nothing out of this because people already think he's awesome and 'Mazing man's popularity takes another hit.

So Batman gets nothing out of punching 'Mazing man and calling him a dork. What does he get out of making 'Mazing man look good and talking him up as a great guy? It's not Batman's job to prop other heroes up and he doesn't need to show up in other heroes books or have them show up in his. There is this false narrative that Batman shows up in other people's book and make them look bad. How many books does DC put out monthly that have absolutely nothing to do with Batman? I would say the vast majority of DC's books. Those books swim or sink on their own and If they do fail and are cancelled Batman has nothing to do with it. Blame the fan base for not supporting the book. Usually if Bats do appear in another hero's book he is portrayed in a negative or unflattering light and those characters fans rejoice in seeing Batman get put in his place. Batman punking out other heroes is overblown because he gets as good as he gives.

[Ascended]

So Batman gets nothing out of punching 'Mazing man and calling him a dork. What does he get out of making 'Mazing man look good and talking him up as a great guy? It's not Batman's job to prop other heroes up

Eh, depending on how you want to spin the business, it actually is. It's a pretty common practice to use your higher selling products to help advertise your lower selling products.

DC however, usually does the opposite.

Just one of many business practices at DC which make no sense to me.

[Dred]

So Batman gets nothing out of punching 'Mazing man and calling him a dork. What does he get out of making 'Mazing man look good and talking him up as a great guy? It's not Batman's job to prop other heroes up and he doesn't need to show up in other heroes books or have them show up in his. There is this false narrative that Batman shows up in other people's book and make them look bad. How many books does DC put out monthly that have absolutely nothing to do with Batman? I would say the vast majority of DC's books. Those books swim or sink on their own and If they do fail and are cancelled Batman has nothing to do with it. Blame the fan base for not supporting the book. Usually if Bats do appear in another hero's book he is portrayed in a negative or unflattering light and those characters fans rejoice in seeing Batman get put in his place. Batman punking out other heroes is overblown because he gets as good as he gives.

This is a flagrant lie. Batman does not "get as good as he gives" by any stretch of the imagination. Not in exposure, treatment, or literally any metric you could possibly describe. The crushing majority of the time Batman gets the best of everyone. When it's the reverse it's a rare occasion and usually shortlived.

For instance, let me put it this way. What Batman has been doing to everyone for years is what Harley Quinn did to Batman (and Superman and Wonder Woman) in Heroes in Crisis. And boy howdy did every Batman fan get annoyed at how stupid and awful that scene was. How dare a super popular character make Batman look like a fool and beat him when it made no sense! This may not have been you, but it was certainly a big deal when it happened, spearheaded by Batman fans.

Ostensibly, Batman appears in the most comics because his popularity will garner attention and sales. If the end point, bottom line, pure capitalistic motive is the case then there's a lot of dissonance in simultaneously having Batman make other characters look intentionally less appealing, because that hurts that other brand's chance at succeeding without Batman.

[Gaius]

Here's how it SHOULD work.

Batman is more popular than 'Mazing man. So Batman teams up with 'Mazing Man, and makes 'Mazing Man look good. He talks about how 'Mazing Man is a great guy and 'Mazing man is able to help Batman do something that Bats can't accomplish on his own.

That way you're using Batman's popularity to help prop up another less popular hero, then maybe people will check out the hero and like him.

The way DC does it however is that Batman shows up, punches 'Mazing man in the face and calls him a dork. It accomplishes nothing. Batman gets nothing out of this because people already think he's awesome and 'Mazing man's popularity takes another hit.

Yep, largely the only Batman I found myself consistently enjoying in the past decade or so was the one from Batman: Brave and the Bold

[TheRay]

Since the original discussion for this thread has run its course, I'd like to co-opt it to discuss a similar idea.
I think it could be fun to discuss Batman contingency plans for people that there is not already a canon one for and/or we can then circle back to whether the canon ones are good or not.

Thoughts?

[Jabare]

I'm pretty sure Batman has a winning record against Flash and Wonder Woman



kneel before Batgod

[Stanlos]

I'm pretty sure Batman has a winning record against Flash and Wonder Woman



kneel before Batgod

WTF would any version of WW give two pootz that Bats became a New God?