Batman literally has no answer for Wonderwoman or Flash

[manwhohaseverything]

Digging out this old chestnut to further drive a point home without bringing up Batman as an example.



This is a pretty clear-cut understanding of how to approach a tactical hero punching above their weight while maintaining a compelling story. This is the amount of forethought you would hope editors demand of their creatives when working in a shared universe. After reading this interview and all the praise I've heard in the run, now I actually want to read Priest's Deathstroke and I never cared about Slade as a standalone character before. This may have all been lip service in the end and the actual product is a mess. It may also be a great example of how to have two characters clash without suffering PIS. I've yet to read the issue(s), but when you see characters like Bruce or Slade take on people clearly outside their weight class, you want to see the plan in motion. Who cares about the winner at the end, I want a compelling narrative. David beating Goliath isn't as interesting if he just throws one rock at him and Goliath falls over. David IS Goliath at that point, with Goliath being naught else but a very tall weakling. If David must triumph, show us the set-up. Show us the execution. Let us revel in the pay off.

Or just have Catwoman roundhouse the Flashes because you're not writing The Flash and let Williamson worry about that.

Yeah! Well, i would have to say,superman if done well can make Deathstroke or anyone who thinks he has got things under control, piss himself. He isn't some muscle bound brute soldier like goliath. If superman ain't written to be a beast. The wolf that breaks chains. Then it ain't superman at all. It's just a puppy without fangs. That situation priest written was like that. I only saw a puppy and not the world's strongest beast. And superman is a vigilante, him talking about justice is hypocritical. Which is exactly what it showed. Superman being called an ideologue was very apt. Oh! Well, he atleast didn't give Deathstroke back to the woman.

[Midnight_v]

BadGod is.


Deal with it.


I hope you never get what you want. You bat haters out there. . . because you have read too many comics and your thinking has become to literal at then thoughts on these boards get inbred.
Think about that, being on these boards and listening one might start to think that Storm is the most powerful comic character ever, anyone saying "hal jordan is my favorite" is a part of a racist mob,
Wolverine and Batman are the least respected and most hated characters in the world.

You'd be wrong, but the over expose to the stories and each other has led a lot of us down a path thats really screwed up, and I thought he was a jerk when he first said it but I"m starting to agree with Grant Morrison here

“Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.” - Grant Morrison

I mean how do you explain to someone the narrative of something thats "Metaphorically" like david and goliath, when they're trying to talk about height weight comparisons and how much more reach Goliath has. Stop it.

I'm a BIG fan of stories making NARRATIVE SENSE, its almost my main talking point most of the time, but the argument of "There's no way batman could rationally defeat.... x...y...z..." well he's the "Goddamn Batman" is the reason and that means he's god some crazy plot armor, and some popularity based protection powers in a meta sense.

But I think too many people are trying to go down the BMX Bandit/Angel Summoner route which isn't the case here.

The catwoman defeating the flashes was... I don't sign off on that either. Logical Sense.

However, for the purpose of the narrative batmans the guy sitting and thinking "How do we defeat X" and X is villian and hero.

Sometime the answer is "I bought a gadget for that" or "I did it 30 mins ago.... -Ozymandias", but a LOT of the time it going to be "I don't handle that one myself.. but I have someone who can"
I came in here to suggest ways bats could deal with flash or Diana, but I didn't excpect this to be a:
"I'm tired of Batman winning" / "I'm want bats brought down a peg". Thread. If you're in that headspace where you want bruce to fall on his ass/want revenge on bruce for beating up your favorite hero... you may have read too many comics, and in doing so you've legit "lost the plot"

Reminds me of that one Captain Atom on the brave and the bold. "Nice team you assembled manhunter... except for batman he doesn't even have any powers" but a charcater knowing everything about the other charcaters he has a huge advantage in a narrative sense.

That being said I do like Wally standing up to Bruce, I like the explanation that he grew up with Dick so he has a lower tolerance for Batman's brand of B.S.

That being said...Crazy Prepared: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../CrazyPrepared is BatGods power and that why his fans LIKE him.

Finally there's 2 Batman, the guy who lives in gotham and broods, and fights madmen, and theres "BatGod" who sits on the council of gods, sat in metrons chair, and has a plan to kill or neutralize everyone he meets overfed comic reader probably need to figure out who they're reading about and *chill*... because he's there to sell books.

TL;DR: Try not to lose the plot, because youve read too many books that you've lost what the character is about as opposed to what YOU feel the character should be about. I'm guilty of it too, its a bad thing

[hareluyafan1]

BadGod is.


Deal with it.

No.

You are basically telling us to be mindless drones with no thoughts of our own. I despise "BatGod," that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

I hope you never get what you want. You bat haters out there. . . because you have read too many comics and your thinking has become to literal at then thoughts on these boards get inbred.
Think about that, being on these boards and listening one might start to think that Storm is the most powerful comic character ever, anyone saying "hal jordan is my favorite" is a part of a racist mob,
Wolverine and Batman are the least respected and most hated characters in the world.

You'd be wrong, but the over expose to the stories and each other has led a lot of us down a path thats really screwed up.

You're saying it's "screwed up" that we'd like other characters to be treated respectfully rather than being made into jobbers so Batman can look good? You're saying it's "screwed up" to like other characters more?

and I thought he was a jerk when he first said it but I"m starting to agree with Grant Morrison here


I mean how do you explain to someone the narrative of something thats "Metaphorically" like david and goliath, when they're trying to talk about height weight comparisons and how much more reach Goliath has. Stop it.

Stop having our own minds? No way.

I'm a BIG fan of stories making NARRATIVE SENSE, its almost my main talking point most of the time, but the argument of "There's no way batman could rationally defeat.... x...y...z..." well he's the "Goddamn Batman" is the reason and that means he's god some crazy plot armor, and some popularity based protection powers in a meta sense.

In other words lazy writing.

I came in here to suggest ways bats could deal with flash or Diana, but I didn't excpect this to be a:
"I'm tired of Batman winning" / "I'm want bats brought down a peg". Thread. If you're in that headspace where you want bruce to fall on his ass/want revenge on bruce for beating up your favorite hero... you may have read too many comics, and in doing so you've legit "lost the plot"

Again, you're saying we've "lost the plot" because we prefer other character to Batman?

Forgive the tangent, but I have written several fan-fictions of Batman being defeated by various characters I like. They're written purely for my own amusement, no one paid me to write them and I always include an Author's Note so Batman fans will know not to read them if they have a problem with the content. If that means I've "lost the plot" then I have no intention of finding it again.

Finally there's 2 Batman, the guy who lives in gotham and broods, and fights madmen, and theres "BatGod" who sits on the council of gods, sat in metrons chair, and has a plan to kill or neutralize everyone he meets overfed comic reader probably need to figure out who they're reading about and *chill*... because he's there to sell books.

That right there is the problem. DC needs to pick one or the other. They can't have it both ways.

Also it's hilarious to say "Batman has a plan to kill or neutralize everyone he meets" while he'll also move mountains to save the Joker's life because "Batman doesn't kill." So he'll go to absurd lengths to save the Joker but he's A-OK with killing his own team-mates?

[Frontier]

Or just have Catwoman roundhouse the Flashes because you're not writing The Flash and let Williamson worry about that.

King's Catwoman probably could take down the entire Justice League .

[Ascended]

BadGod is.

Deal with it.

I refuse to deal with lazy writing.

I know you're aiming all this at the Bat haters, and I don't count myself among them. But a story where Superman casually slaps Darkseid through the Source Wall is not a good story. It's boring and stupid at best, and insulting to Darkseid's character while undervaluing Clark's other attributes beyond his muscles at worst. Batman casually slapping Superman unconscious is likewise not acceptable. If Bats wins in a interesting and thought provoking and fun manner, cool. But most of the time we don't get something of quality like Hush, we get something moronic like Endgame where Bruce wins by spitting on Clark.

You're right that we often take this stuff too seriously and too literally. Morrison is totally correct on that (and points for quoting him). But I don't accept bad writing in any entertainment format and I won't accept it in comics either.

King's Catwoman probably could take down the entire Justice League .

But she did it that one time in that one crappy Justice League story where she kicked Prometheus in the balls, so it totally makes sense and is something she could do at any time!

[sifighter]

So question to get away from other arguments but do we count other heroes as being in Batman’s arsenal as well. We are talking about a man who has an entire Bat-family behind him, still has ties with Batman Inc., and went off to form his own separate Justice League(Orlando’s JLA run) and put together the Outsiders as his own black-ops team (Snyder’s Metal and currently ongoing). Like there are times when I think Batman would go “my contingency for the Justice League is my own Justice League”

[Ascended]

So question to get away from other arguments but do we count other heroes as being in Batman’s arsenal as well.

Only if they're part of the Bat clan.

I got no problem with Bruce pulling a Robin out of his utility belt or something and counting that as Bruce's win. But when he gets other heroes who aren't directly under his franchise to do something for him, that's not part of his arsenal, that's him calling in a favor.

Same goes for anyone else. If Barry asks Bart to do something, that can be counted as Barry using his own resources to pull out a win. If Barry gets Cyborg or Ollie to help him out, that doesn't count as Barry using his own arsenal or resources, that's a team up.

[Midnight_v]

Like there are times when I think Batman would go “my contingency for the Justice League is my own Justice League”

I totally agree with this and I see this as being central to many of his plans. I mean outsider, batfamily.... hes definitely an extreme general type when it comes to organizations. So I see it that way too, not that he couldn't get ray palmer tech but realistically to anyone not born a super he could just ask.

....
As far as the arguments and people hating and god... I'm not reading all that *shrug* sorry, I do realize how my post might ruffle some feathers though and what I meant by:
"Deal with it." Is this...

You're busy despising something that is unlikely to change.
I suppose coming here and complaining whenever it comes up as your way of dealing with it.

Bats isn't my favorite either, But I fully expect that if Batman fought my favorite hero my favorite hero is going to get slapped probably not by Batman directly but by batman's summoned "heroes" or the fact that he has been planning to deal with my favorite for a while before. That's just his narrative.

That's occurs beyond just the writing good or bad.

The challenge, for me at least in these instances is to think:

How would bats beat? WW? Knowing what he knows about her?

But I also didn't see the depths of the river people are drowning in over it. So I'll just drop it and leave people to thier rages.

That's being said:
Shrink wonderwoman
Contingency magic vs flash.

Batman's plans to defeat them. Plans already in motion. Most likely

[JackDaw]

That right there is the problem. DC needs to pick one or the other. They can't have it both ways.

Also it's hilarious to say "Batman has a plan to kill or neutralize everyone he meets" while he'll also move mountains to save the Joker's life because "Batman doesn't kill." So he'll go to absurd lengths to save the Joker but he's A-OK with killing his own team-mates?

But there’s how many thousands of Batman stories over 8 decades?

And there’s not 1 Batman but dozens. From the zany Adam West version of the tv show of long ago, to the affable, competent but sometime fallible Batman of the Bob Haney/ Jim Aparo wonder years, through to the Batgod we see in some JLA material.

DC have made a pragmatic decision to forsake total consistency (or anything like it !) because Batman sells...and different fans like different forms of the character.

It works. It sells loads of comics, etc, why would we expect DC to change course?

I understand a lot of fans don’t like the Batgod version. I don’t myself..so I read mostly old runs that feature a different version, while being happy that fans that do like Batgod have material that pleases them.

[Robanker]

BadGod is.


Deal with it.


I hope you never get what you want. You bat haters out there. . . because you have read too many comics and your thinking has become to literal at then thoughts on these boards get inbred.
Think about that, being on these boards and listening one might start to think that Storm is the most powerful comic character ever, anyone saying "hal jordan is my favorite" is a part of a racist mob,
Wolverine and Batman are the least respected and most hated characters in the world.

You'd be wrong, but the over expose to the stories and each other has led a lot of us down a path thats really screwed up, and I thought he was a jerk when he first said it but I"m starting to agree with Grant Morrison here


I mean how do you explain to someone the narrative of something thats "Metaphorically" like david and goliath, when they're trying to talk about height weight comparisons and how much more reach Goliath has. Stop it.

I'm a BIG fan of stories making NARRATIVE SENSE, its almost my main talking point most of the time, but the argument of "There's no way batman could rationally defeat.... x...y...z..." well he's the "Goddamn Batman" is the reason and that means he's god some crazy plot armor, and some popularity based protection powers in a meta sense.

But I think too many people are trying to go down the BMX Bandit/Angel Summoner route which isn't the case here.

The catwoman defeating the flashes was... I don't sign off on that either. Logical Sense.

However, for the purpose of the narrative batmans the guy sitting and thinking "How do we defeat X" and X is villian and hero.

Sometime the answer is "I bought a gadget for that" or "I did it 30 mins ago.... -Ozymandias", but a LOT of the time it going to be "I don't handle that one myself.. but I have someone who can"
I came in here to suggest ways bats could deal with flash or Diana, but I didn't excpect this to be a:
"I'm tired of Batman winning" / "I'm want bats brought down a peg". Thread. If you're in that headspace where you want bruce to fall on his ass/want revenge on bruce for beating up your favorite hero... you may have read too many comics, and in doing so you've legit "lost the plot"

Reminds me of that one Captain Atom on the brave and the bold. "Nice team you assembled manhunter... except for batman he doesn't even have any powers" but a charcater knowing everything about the other charcaters he has a huge advantage in a narrative sense.

That being said I do like Wally standing up to Bruce, I like the explanation that he grew up with Dick so he has a lower tolerance for Batman's brand of B.S.

That being said...Crazy Prepared: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../CrazyPrepared is BatGods power and that why his fans LIKE him.

Finally there's 2 Batman, the guy who lives in gotham and broods, and fights madmen, and theres "BatGod" who sits on the council of gods, sat in metrons chair, and has a plan to kill or neutralize everyone he meets overfed comic reader probably need to figure out who they're reading about and *chill*... because he's there to sell books.

"Hey, don't have a brain. Be sheep. Like me."

Hard pass, bud. Enjoy the Kool-Aid in Waynetown. I'll always call out piss-poor writing to serve greed. And for what it's worth, I really like Batman a whole lot when he's written as Batman and not a plot device.

[hareluyafan1]

But there’s how many thousands of Batman stories over 8 decades?

And there’s not 1 Batman but dozens. From the zany Adam West version of the tv show of long ago, to the affable, competent but sometime fallible Batman of the Bob Haney/ Jim Aparo wonder years, through to the Batgod we see in some JLA material.

DC have made a pragmatic decision to forsake total consistency (or anything like it !) because Batman sells...and different fans like different forms of the character.

It works. It sells loads of comics, etc, why would we expect DC to change course?

Let me rephrase that. They can't have both at the same time. Not if they're meant to be in the same continuity. To use your example the Adam West show, the various animated series, the comics and such, are all separate continuities and like you said, they span eight decades. Now imagine if we tried to put them all in one series at the same time. It doesn't work from a narrative standpoint. How can Batman be considered an urban myth while at the same time him and the JLA are accepting awards from the president? If he can easily devise ways to subdue the likes of Flash and Green Lantern, then why does he have so much difficulty with guys like Two-Face? As a previous poster noted, why not just put a post-hypnotic mind-whammy on Harvey that makes him incapable of flipping his coin? If it works on GL then why not him?

This video here explains it best- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQJsLicChl0

The only way it can make sense is to have two separate continuities. Otherwise it's like having Batman be like his Adam West incarnation in one issue and his Frank Miller incarnation in the next.

I understand a lot of fans don’t like the Batgod version. I don’t myself..so I read mostly old runs that feature a different version, while being happy that fans that do like Batgod have material that pleases them

Everyone has a right to their opinion yes, but the problem with "Batgod" is that it forces other characters to look like chumps to make Batman look good by comparison. How do fans of those other characters feel?

[LifeIsILL]

Think about that, being on these boards and listening one might start to think that Storm is the most powerful comic character ever, anyone saying "hal jordan is my favorite" is a part of a racist mob,

You don't need to read comic books or be on this forum to know that Storm is a powerful character. It's just common sense that she is.

[hareluyafan1]

"Hey, don't have a brain. Be sheep. Like me."

Hard pass, bud. Enjoy the Kool-Aid in Waynetown. I'll always call out piss-poor writing to serve greed.

Exactly. Well said.

[hareluyafan1]

As far as the arguments and people hating and god... I'm not reading all that *shrug* sorry, I do realize how my post might ruffle some feathers though and what I meant by:
"Deal with it." Is this...

You're busy despising something that is unlikely to change.

Terrorism is unlikely to change. Are you saying we shouldn't despise terrorism?

Bats isn't my favorite either, But I fully expect that if Batman fought my favorite hero my favorite hero is going to get slapped probably not by Batman directly but by batman's summoned "heroes" or the fact that he has been planning to deal with my favorite for a while before. That's just his narrative.

Then do something about it. For example write your own stories in which your favourite wins like I do. You don't have to just take it.

But I also didn't see the depths of the river people are drowning in over it. So I'll just drop it and leave people to thier rages.

I understand you want to drop this but first answer me one question, how have I "lost the plot" because I like other characters more than Batman?

That's being said:
Shrink wonderwoman
Contingency magic vs flash.

Batman's plans to defeat them. Plans already in motion. Most likely

Name one issue in which those actually happened.

[Dred]

BadGod is.


Deal with it.


I hope you never get what you want. You bat haters out there. . . because you have read too many comics and your thinking has become to literal at then thoughts on these boards get inbred.
Think about that, being on these boards and listening one might start to think that Storm is the most powerful comic character ever, anyone saying "hal jordan is my favorite" is a part of a racist mob,
Wolverine and Batman are the least respected and most hated characters in the world.

You'd be wrong, but the over expose to the stories and each other has led a lot of us down a path thats really screwed up, and I thought he was a jerk when he first said it but I"m starting to agree with Grant Morrison here


I mean how do you explain to someone the narrative of something thats "Metaphorically" like david and goliath, when they're trying to talk about height weight comparisons and how much more reach Goliath has. Stop it.

I'm a BIG fan of stories making NARRATIVE SENSE, its almost my main talking point most of the time, but the argument of "There's no way batman could rationally defeat.... x...y...z..." well he's the "Goddamn Batman" is the reason and that means he's god some crazy plot armor, and some popularity based protection powers in a meta sense.

But I think too many people are trying to go down the BMX Bandit/Angel Summoner route which isn't the case here.

The catwoman defeating the flashes was... I don't sign off on that either. Logical Sense.

However, for the purpose of the narrative batmans the guy sitting and thinking "How do we defeat X" and X is villian and hero.

Sometime the answer is "I bought a gadget for that" or "I did it 30 mins ago.... -Ozymandias", but a LOT of the time it going to be "I don't handle that one myself.. but I have someone who can"
I came in here to suggest ways bats could deal with flash or Diana, but I didn't excpect this to be a:
"I'm tired of Batman winning" / "I'm want bats brought down a peg". Thread. If you're in that headspace where you want bruce to fall on his ass/want revenge on bruce for beating up your favorite hero... you may have read too many comics, and in doing so you've legit "lost the plot"

Reminds me of that one Captain Atom on the brave and the bold. "Nice team you assembled manhunter... except for batman he doesn't even have any powers" but a charcater knowing everything about the other charcaters he has a huge advantage in a narrative sense.

That being said I do like Wally standing up to Bruce, I like the explanation that he grew up with Dick so he has a lower tolerance for Batman's brand of B.S.

That being said...Crazy Prepared: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../CrazyPrepared is BatGods power and that why his fans LIKE him.

Finally there's 2 Batman, the guy who lives in gotham and broods, and fights madmen, and theres "BatGod" who sits on the council of gods, sat in metrons chair, and has a plan to kill or neutralize everyone he meets overfed comic reader probably need to figure out who they're reading about and *chill*... because he's there to sell books.

It is not about power levels. The problem is that it is used, narratively and meta-narratively, to establish Batman as superior to every other character. Frequently and with complete disregard of any respect to the other characters. If you think it is beholden to Batman to make every other superhero look like sewage soup then your tastes are too narrow and your empathy too shallow to really converse with. I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot you'd do nothing but complain to the high heavens. Because ANY time Batman gets slightly put in his place there's a damn whiny riot the likes of which make this thread look minuscule.